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Blessing the name of God after transgression


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I had a few questions about these passages in the Book of Moses.

Moses 5:10 says, "And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all
the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are
opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God
."

Are there times when you have blessed the name of God after your transgressions?  

Moses 5:11 says, "And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our
transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of
our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient
."

Is this the first and only time Eve was glad they transgressed God's command or were there more instances?

Thanks,
Jim

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22 minutes ago, theplains said:

I had a few questions about these passages in the Book of Moses.

Moses 5:10 says, "And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all
the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are
opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God
."

Are there times when you have blessed the name of God after your transgressions?  

Moses 5:11 says, "And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our
transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of
our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient
."

Is this the first and only time Eve was glad they transgressed God's command or were there more instances?

Thanks,
Jim

When taken at face value, it says, Eve “heard all these things and was glad.” “All these things” refers to verses 6-9 (plus Adam's comment in 10), and is that not Good News and something to be glad about?

God turned their transgression around by opening their eyes to see the Redemption in terms of good overcoming evil, and by having seed they could live as God does, by teaching the Good News to their children (see verse 12). Both Adam and Eve say this in different ways in the two verses you provided. She is not glad about just one thing, but ultimately is glad in the overarching Good News.

What were the times you think Adam and/or Eve transgressed and were glad about it? What is it that you think LDS belief is missing in this regard?

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I was not raised in the church... after my "transgressions"... or sins I suppose - after taking drugs, I was more empathetic to others who had issues with drugs and alcohol....

were it not for my transgressions, I would not have as much compassion or forgiveness for others.  

Am I glad I did drugs?  Were it not for doing drugs then ... I would never had known the hearts of others, would have never had many of the friendships I had, ...

That is dangerous though, being happy for sinning...

 

Edited by changed
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1 hour ago, theplains said:

I had a few questions about these passages in the Book of Moses.

Moses 5:10 says, "And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all
the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are
opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God
."

Are there times when you have blessed the name of God after your transgressions?  

Moses 5:11 says, "And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our
transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of
our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient
."

Is this the first and only time Eve was glad they transgressed God's command or were there more instances?

Thanks,
Jim

Hi, Jim - just some initial thoughts. In the context of verse 10, I understand blessing the name of God is the same as praising or worshipping God. Repentance is the process that leads us back to God and to sense that forgiveness that he offers in his mercy towards us. I don't praise him that I have sinned, but I praise him that he has forgiven me.  I think this is the same context Adam is speaking about.

Verse 11 may be more problematic because of the distinction between a transgression and a sin.  As a result of their transgression - which was God's desire and plan - Adam and Eve were given specific additional blessings that they did not enjoy in the Garden of Eden. Both Adam and Eve recognized these blessings and were grateful to God for his continued mercy and blessings. God's plan required them to leave the Garden, but it had to be by Adam and Eve's own choice to leave....which was through transgressing his directive. 

I think this is the only time where their choice was not a sin, but a transgression. 

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3 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Hi, Jim - just some initial thoughts. In the context of verse 10, I understand blessing the name of God is the same as praising or worshipping God. Repentance is the process that leads us back to God and to sense that forgiveness that he offers in his mercy towards us. I don't praise him that I have sinned, but I praise him that he has forgiven me.  I think this is the same context Adam is speaking about.

Verse 11 may be more problematic because of the distinction between a transgression and a sin.  As a result of their transgression - which was God's desire and plan - Adam and Eve were given specific additional blessings that they did not enjoy in the Garden of Eden. Both Adam and Eve recognized these blessings and were grateful to God for his continued mercy and blessings. God's plan required them to leave the Garden, but it had to be by Adam and Eve's own choice to leave....which was through transgressing his directive. 

I think this is the only time where their choice was not a sin, but a transgression. 

 

God's plan requires all of us to leave the garden... it is G-d's desire that all of us come here and sin.  I guess it is required for knowledge, and progression...

Was it a choice?  It was not an informed choice.  They had no idea what they were getting themselves into, did not know the wars / pain / suffering of their future children.  Is a choice made in ignorance really a choice?  

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3 hours ago, changed said:

God's plan requires all of us to leave the garden... it is G-d's desire that all of us come here and sin.  I guess it is required for knowledge, and progression...

Was it a choice?  It was not an informed choice.  They had no idea what they were getting themselves into, did not know the wars / pain / suffering of their future children.  Is a choice made in ignorance really a choice?  

Eve knew what she was doing.  She did not know everything, but she did understand that "partaking of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" would make her able to have real joy and pain, to reproduce, and to make real choices with real consequences.  She presented her mate with a fait accompli.  He had to go along in order to be fruitful & multiply.  Both of them had to leave the Garden of innocence for the Telestial world of woe.

Not all choices have immediately happy consequences, and this is merely one example.  In order to come back to God's Kingdom, humans must have real experiences and make real choices -- in accordance with a Gospel of "Good News" about the self-sacrifice of our elder brother and Savior -- who was put to death by those who did not understand the nature of their transgression ("Forgive them, for they know not what they do"), but whose transgression was essential to the salvation of all humankind.

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6 hours ago, changed said:

 

God's plan requires all of us to leave the garden... it is G-d's desire that all of us come here and sin.  I guess it is required for knowledge, and progression...

Was it a choice?  It was not an informed choice.  They had no idea what they were getting themselves into, did not know the wars / pain / suffering of their future children.  Is a choice made in ignorance really a choice?  

Of course, your proposition makes the assumption that you cannot sin unless you have full knowledge. At what age do you think humans have achieved full knowledge?  The logic does not make sense to me.  We each make a choice based on our current circumstances. Sin is choosing to abandon God and his commandments and teachings - not whether we have a full understanding of the consequences of sin.

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6 hours ago, changed said:

 

God's plan requires all of us to leave the garden... it is G-d's desire that all of us come here and sin.  I guess it is required for knowledge, and progression...

Was it a choice?  It was not an informed choice.  They had no idea what they were getting themselves into, did not know the wars / pain / suffering of their future children.  Is a choice made in ignorance really a choice?  

LDS belief is that God explained his Plan prior to mortality and all of us here agreed to go through with it.  Doctrine doesn't go into how much we were told or understood.  Seems like to me if the Plan was undertaken on other earths before this one, it would have been relatively easy to show us what to expect both in mortality and what came after.  Given we had already existed for eternity, it seems likely we could comprehend much of what we comprehend now even if physical pain was not in our experience ( surely we knew spiritual pain, maybe emotional as well).

If we knew all this and made a choice then to go through with it, then how would that not be an informed choice?  It might be similar to making a decision to go through surgery.  Prior to it, we are fully aware and have past experiences of pain and healing to draw on to understand for the most part what it will entail.  If we are woken up in the middle of surgery, drug addled, but asked to make the choice again, our ability to make an wise choice will be greatly impaired by drugs and possibly pain...but that doesn't change the fact that our decision prior to surgery was informed.

This is, of course, dependent on having sufficient explanations given to be informed premortality, but it seems reasonable and certainly possible and therefore probable in my view that they were.

Edited by Calm
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12 hours ago, changed said:

 

God's plan requires all of us to leave the garden... it is G-d's desire that all of us come here and sin.  I guess it is required for knowledge, and progression...

Was it a choice?  It was not an informed choice.  They had no idea what they were getting themselves into, did not know the wars / pain / suffering of their future children.  Is a choice made in ignorance really a choice?  

Eve had a choice.

She could have said, "God, you set me up to fail.  You didn't adequately warn me about the serpent.  You are the one who created me with impulses that would cause me to fall for his lies.  You didn't tell me what I was getting myself into.  You completely failed to communicate the full consequences to me.  You could have protected me and my descendants, but you did not.  Therefore, YOU are responsible for all the bad things that have happened to me and that will happen to all of my descendants.  Nice job."

Or she could have said, "Wow, look at all that I learned because of my mistake!  Look at all that my descendants will learn because of my mistake!  And omigosh God has already figured it all out, there is ALREADY a plan in place to heal all of the negative consequences of not only my own mistakes, but also all those of my descendants!"

Each of us has this same choice. 

When we choose to treasure our grievances, like in the first hypothetical above, the price is our happiness.  Our happiness is what treasuring our grievances costs us.  Doesn't matter how "justified" we are (and all who treasure their grievances think themselves justified) - the price is the same. 

There is another way of seeing EVERYTHING:  "ALL of these things shall give thee experience, and shall BE FOR THY GOOD".  That scripture applies to every single person on the planet, and includes ALL THINGS that happen to them, whether they are the ones who ate the forbidden fruit or whether it was done by someone else.  Just as God was smart enough to turn Eve's disobedience into a blessing for her and her descendants, so too God is smart enough to turn any other mistake or event to our benefit.  But part of our job is to let go of our grievances, INCLUDING our grievances against Him.  When we value the valueless, we are choosing darkness over light and so the light is obscured, at least until we have learned to no longer value anything else above it.

13 hours ago, changed said:

after my "transgressions"... or sins I suppose - after taking drugs, I was more empathetic to others who had issues with drugs and alcohol.... were it not for my transgressions, I would not have as much compassion or forgiveness for others.  

That's it, sister!  The benefit to you and to everyone else from your empathy and compassion and forgiveness is eternal.   Imo any downside from your having done drugs or anything else is temporary, and in the long run nothing that is temporary is real.  And the long run is the only run that really matters. 

Imo we have misunderstood guilt.  We think that guilt is telling us we have offended God and are worthy of condemnation.  Imo, guilt is but notification from our soul that we have chosen to value something that is valueless.  God values us immensely ("the worth of souls is great" - notice there is no differentiation based on "worthiness"), and He does not value the valueless.  When you value your brother or sister with your empathy and compassion and forgiveness, the love you offer them is from your Father too.

 

Edited by Eek!
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Thanks for the replies everyone, although I am still not convinced that anyone came to this world, or exists in this world, with agency.  I believe  omniscience is needed for agency to fully exist.

   

2 hours ago, Eek! said:

That's it, sister!  The benefit to you and to everyone else from your empathy and compassion and forgiveness is eternal.   Imo any downside from your having done drugs ...

Perhaps the downside is that - having done drugs - only all-natural mind you - drugs, I don't think they are evil if properly administered and used.  I think they have even saved lives and helped many people get through hard situations, and get through pain.  The blind leading the blind?  If you can't beat them, join them?  Only when you walk a mile in someone else's shoes do you know who they are - does "no longer thinks some things are evil" = empathy?  Don't worry, I understand, go right ahead if that is what you need...  is this gaining knowledge?  It's easy to forgive others if you are a sinner too....  very empathetic.  

 

What is right, what is wrong?  I honestly don't know anymore.  Does following the savior bring peace and happiness?  All of his disciplines - or 11/12 of them, had horrible lives - they were killed in the end - absolutely horrific deaths so... experiment on the word, and what is supposed to be the outcome of this experiment?  For the few years I was a temple-going TBM my husband despised me, kids had no respect for me, I was not close to my non-LDS family members, I felt depressed - not happy... Now I have used bad experiences to justify becoming some rebellious person again, and life is better.  Stopped paying tithing, and paid off the house - first time 100% debt free is first time not paying tithing.  Working full time - not staying home with the kids, now my kids and husband respect and love me, I feel like I am worth something.  CFS → caffeine pills, I feel healthier than ever.  What is supposed to be the result of the experiments?  Feeling the spirit?  I feel spirits - when I should not be feeling them... so are they good or bad spirits?  I don't know anything anymore.  Is it wrong to just do what keeps everyone happy?

 

  

Edited by changed
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2 hours ago, changed said:

Only when you walk a mile in someone else's shoes do you know who they are... is this gaining knowledge? 

 Yes, this is gaining knowledge.  

2 hours ago, changed said:

Does following the savior bring peace and happiness?  All of his disciplines - or 11/12 of them, had horrible lives - they were killed in the end - absolutely horrific deaths so... experiment on the word, and what is supposed to be the outcome of this experiment?  For the few years I was a temple-going TBM my husband despised me, kids had no respect for me, I was not close to my non-LDS family members, I felt depressed - not happy...

The following is just my opinion.

The words you wrote sound to me like a collection of grievances.  Do they bring you happiness?

The smartest thing to do with a grievance is to see that it offers you nothing of value, nothing that you would want to keep, and then you can easily let it go.  Grievances are poison disguised as candy.  Grievances are what your negative side uses as proof that you are the victim of the world you see.  This is the path of least resistance.  We choose it because our minds are so used to walking in this deep rut that we cannot believe there is another way of seeing everything.  But every event that looks like the loss of something real is just an ugly illusion.  Only the eternal is real, and that which is eternal cannot be harmed by that which is temporary, no matter how convincing the illusions down here may be. 

You might try this:  When a grievance or injustice or anything that engenders fear or rage or sadness comes to your mind, say to yourself, "There is a different way of seeing this." 

Or perhaps, "I am willing to let the Holy Spirit re-interpret this for me."

Or maybe, "I could see peace instead of this."

Then quiet your mind and give the Holy Spirit a chance to show you that different way, that different interpretation, that peace.  Every time you do this, even if it seems like nothing is happening, you are accomplishing far more than a lifetime of enduring in the world of grievances.  You are walking towards the Light.  And while it may appear that you do so only for yourself, I believe that you are blessing all of God's children, regardless of the apparent separations of distance and time. 

Imo the Good News comes in many different forms, all of which have this same basic content:  You have nothing to fear. 

To put it another way, perfect love casts out all fear.  So if something does not cast out all fear, then it is not perfect love.  Hold all teachings up to this yardstick, and if they fall short, gently lay them aside.  They may have served you well at one time, but they no longer do. 

And if you find yourself in darkness, that means you have made a mistake. Doesn't matter if it is big or small (you have nothing to fear either way).  Ask God to let all negative consequences of your mistake be healed, and then choose again.  Healing all negative consequences of our mistakes is not our job, that is the job of Christ and the Atonement is the means, BUT learning from our mistakes and choosing again IS our job. 

And to answer your question, "Does following the savior bring peace and happiness?"  The answer is yes, but not on the world's terms.  The events of this world will never be what brings peace and happiness, but that does not matter.  The peace the savior offers does not depend on them in the slightest.  His yoke is easy, and his burden is Light. 

This is my opinion.

Edited by Eek!
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14 hours ago, changed said:

 Were it not for doing drugs then ... I would never had known the hearts of others, would have never had many of the friendships I had, ...

That is dangerous though, being happy for sinning...

Imo at worst you merely made a mistake (doing drugs).  At worst, you were mistaken about what would make you truly happy.  Condemnation would be inappropriate for someone who was mistaken about what would make them happy.  Correction is appropriate, but not condemnation. 

And as you discovered, God had no problem turning that mistake into a blessing for yourself and for others ("were it not for doing drugs then ... I would never had known the hearts of others, would have never had many of the friendships I had.").

If we will let Him, God can and will turn all of our mistakes to our good.  But he will not do so against our will!  And as long as our minds are split between light and darkness, we have not truly chosen the light.  However his patience is infinite, and we little apples did not fall as far from the tree as outward appearances might lead us to believe, so imo the end result is not in question.  Only the amount of time it takes is. 

Edited by Eek!
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On 6/16/2018 at 4:59 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Eve knew what she was doing.  She did not know everything, but she did understand that "partaking of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" would make her able to have real joy and pain, to reproduce, and to make real choices with real consequences.

What scriptural evidence or LDS teachings can you provide to indicate Eve (while in the Garden) had all this knowledge
'before' she ate from the forbidden tree?

Thanks,
Jim

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1 hour ago, theplains said:

What scriptural evidence or LDS teachings can you provide to indicate Eve (while in the Garden) had all this knowledge
'before' she ate from the forbidden tree?

Thanks,
Jim

Its in the LDS temple script, and the Garden is the temple (as I have explained to you before).  She realizes explicitly that there is no other way, and so must necessarily "eat" the "fruit" -- which is purely symbolic.  In other words, she is a character in an archetypal initiatory event.  Every word and action is part of the essential rite de passage.  Every Mormon today who goes through the endowment ritual experiences the same features of initiation -- and every one is an Adam and an Eve.

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2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Its in the LDS temple script, and the Garden is the temple (as I have explained to you before).  She realizes explicitly that there is no other way, and so must necessarily "eat" the "fruit" -- which is purely symbolic.  In other words, she is a character in an archetypal initiatory event.  Every word and action is part of the essential rite de passage.  Every Mormon today who goes through the endowment ritual experiences the same features of initiation -- and every one is an Adam and an Eve.

So ... Stray thought.

Eve's ecstatic statement of joy reminds me of the Magnificat. Likewise a ritual statement. Just as Mary celebrates the birth of The Son of G-d to come, Eve celebrates the birth of every son and daughter of G-d to come.

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The D&C indicates that Adam ( and Eve ) was a distinct individual with posterity etc. Keys will be returned to him as Michael and he will return them to  Christ. If the partaking of the fruit was symbolic, what action was it symbolic of? I make the leap that a transgression involves some action or behavior on the part of Adam and Eve. What law did they transgress? How did they do so ?

I am reminded of my study of abstract algebra and reaching the point where my practical mind could no longer grasp the "woo-woo-ness " of it all .

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14 hours ago, theplains said:

What scriptural evidence or LDS teachings can you provide to indicate Eve (while in the Garden) had all this knowledge
'before' she ate from the forbidden tree?

Thanks,
Jim

She knew the four commandments (1. multiply and replenish the earth; 2. subdue and have dominion over the earth; 3. dress and keep the garden; and, 4. not partake of the forbidden fruit). While she knew the difference between what they were told to do and not to do, they had not yet obtained the wisdom nor subtilty to manage them all. They had no knowledge of good and evil with respect to these commandments; indeed, there was no apparent (apparent to them, anyway) opposition to keeping them in order to exercise such knowledge. For example, none were particularly desirable; to the contrary, only the forbidden tree is mentioned as desirable (at some point in her musing over the commandments it dawned on Eve that wisdom in the knowledge of good and evil was desirable). Plus, the tree and the garden were the only two things she could actually see and work with in relation to keeping the four commandments. She sensed that she needed more wisdom, and a knowledge of good and evil to keep commandments 1 and 2, and concluded that the forbidden fruit was designed to provide just that (“a tree to be desired to make one wise ["as gods"],” Genesis 3:5, 6). Absent any personal experience with commandments 1 and 2, but increasingly wanting to keep them, she wisely took the best route a beguiled person would take.

What scriptural evidence do you have that she lacked this kind of knowledge?

Edited by CV75
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10 hours ago, strappinglad said:

The D&C indicates that Adam ( and Eve ) was a distinct individual with posterity etc. Keys will be returned to him as Michael and he will return them to  Christ.

There is indeed a first occasion in which the human family has a representative who goes through the ritual procedure.  For us that first person was Mi-cha-el "Who-is-like-God," who is given the ritual and archetypal name 'adam "man" for that first occasion, and all men do likewise every time they perform the rite.  We are his genetic posterity.  Keys provide authorization.

Quote

If the partaking of the fruit was symbolic, what action was it symbolic of?

That is a hard one.  I can only compare that to the taking of the man's rib to make woman.  The Brethren say that the act is symbolic and that no rib was actually involved.  Describing the obtaining of knowledge of good & evil by eating fruit is likely equally symbolic, because no one can reasonably assert that the actual eating of fruit gives one knowledge.  We speak in metaphors akin to describing "the fruit of the poison tree" (a common legal metaphor), when such a thing has not literally taken place.  We also speak of reaching the age of accountability when our childhood innocence is over and adult realizations come to our consciousness -- only then can God hold us responsible or culpable for our actions.  Yet how did we really come that realization of the difference between good and evil?  It was certainly not because we ate fruit for breakfast one morning.  Can it be a maturation process which we describe with the symbolic taking of fruit?

Quote

I make the leap that a transgression involves some action or behavior on the part of Adam and Eve. What law did they transgress? How did they do so ?

I am reminded of my study of abstract algebra and reaching the point where my practical mind could no longer grasp the "woo-woo-ness " of it all .

All of us as Adam & Eve are following a script which has real consequences -- equally as real as the formal blessing of the Sacramental bread & water in Church each Sunday.  In each case, it is a ritual procedure which has divine consequences.  The first time as well as the last time.  The formal transgression is part of the passion play we are all involved in each time.  We have no choice in the matter, except to opt out, in which case we are consigned to outer darkness.

Edited by Robert F. Smith
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7 hours ago, CV75 said:

What scriptural evidence do you have that she lacked this kind of knowledge?

My question was in reply to Robert's post.  He mentioned that she knew she could not procreate before
the Fall in the Garden of Eden.

Thanks,
Jim

Edited by theplains
correct a word
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On 6/16/2018 at 11:38 AM, CV75 said:

What were the times you think Adam and/or Eve transgressed and were glad about it? What is it that you think LDS belief is missing in this regard?

Personally I don't believe Adam and Eve sinned/transgressed and then blessed the name of God for it.  When
I sin, I don't bless the name of God either. 

Jim

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2 hours ago, theplains said:

My question was in reply to Robert's post.  He mentioned that she knew she could not procreate before
the Fall in the Garden of Eden.

Thanks,
Jim

I know what the question was; I answered it as well; now what is your response to my question?

2 hours ago, theplains said:

Personally I don't believe Adam and Eve sinned/transgressed and then blessed the name of God for it.  When
I sin, I don't bless the name of God either. 

Jim

Straw man and two dodges! What is your reply to my actual questions?

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On 6/18/2018 at 11:00 AM, CV75 said:

She knew the four commandments (1. multiply and replenish the earth; 2. subdue and have dominion over the earth; 3. dress and keep the garden; and, 4. not partake of the forbidden fruit).

We can agree.


While she knew the difference between what they were told to do and not to do, they had not yet obtained the wisdom nor subtilty to manage them all.

Based on the lack of scriptural evidence, I could not speculate like that.


They had no knowledge of good and evil with respect to these commandments;

But they knew what to do and what not to do based on God's word to them.


indeed, there was no apparent (apparent to them, anyway) opposition to keeping them in order to exercise such knowledge.

Do you believe Adam and Eve knew how to dress and keep the garden before the Fall? If yes, how 
did they exercise such knowledge?

When Adam and Eve were told to be fruitful and multiple, did they understand what that meant?
Or did they ask God, "What?  I don't understand your words."?


For example, none were particularly desirable; to the contrary, only the forbidden tree is mentioned as desirable

Genesis 2:9 says, "And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to 
the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of 
knowledge of good and evil."

This reveals Adam and Eve experienced pleasure/joy before the Fall, something contradicted by
LDS scripture.


(at some point in her musing over the commandments it dawned on Eve that wisdom in the knowledge of good and evil was desirable).

I believe the key driver behind her desire to eat from the forbidden tree was she really wanted
to be as a god ... to decide for herself instead of living under God's direction.  This same
unfortunate thing happens throughout history ... where mankind follows their own path instead of
the path directed by God.  Eve did not believe and rely on God's words so she followed Satan
instead.

 

Plus, the tree and the garden were the only two things she could actually see and work with in relation to keeping the four commandments

Based on the lack of scriptural evidence, I could not speculate like that.

Do you believe she could actually see and work in relationship with 'Adam' to procreate before
the Fall?  Do you believe the plants and animals could procreate before the Fall?


She sensed that she needed more wisdom, and a knowledge of good and evil to keep commandments 1 and 2, and concluded that the forbidden fruit was designed to provide just that


Based on the lack of scriptural evidence, I could not speculate like that.


Absent any personal experience with commandments 1 and 2, but increasingly wanting to keep them, she wisely took the best route a beguiled person would take.

The apostle Paul refers to the beguiling of a person as the corruption of a person's mind.

2 Corinthians 11:3 - "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his 
subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

The people of the above verse are not considered as making a wise choice if they are beguiled
or have their mind corrupted.

Thanks,
Jim

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16 hours ago, theplains said:

We can agree.

Based on the lack of scriptural evidence, I could not speculate like that.

But they knew what to do and what not to do based on God's word to them.

Do you believe Adam and Eve knew how to dress and keep the garden before the Fall? If yes, how 
did they exercise such knowledge?

When Adam and Eve were told to be fruitful and multiple, did they understand what that meant?
Or did they ask God, "What?  I don't understand your words."?

Genesis 2:9 says, "And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to 
the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of 
knowledge of good and evil."

This reveals Adam and Eve experienced pleasure/joy before the Fall, something contradicted by
LDS scripture.

I believe the key driver behind her desire to eat from the forbidden tree was she really wanted
to be as a god ... to decide for herself instead of living under God's direction.  This same
unfortunate thing happens throughout history ... where mankind follows their own path instead of
the path directed by God.  Eve did not believe and rely on God's words so she followed Satan
instead.

Based on the lack of scriptural evidence, I could not speculate like that.

Do you believe she could actually see and work in relationship with 'Adam' to procreate before
the Fall?  Do you believe the plants and animals could procreate before the Fall?

Based on the lack of scriptural evidence, I could not speculate like that.

The apostle Paul refers to the beguiling of a person as the corruption of a person's mind.

2 Corinthians 11:3 - "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his 
subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

The people of the above verse are not considered as making a wise choice if they are beguiled
or have their mind corrupted.

Thanks,
Jim

But you are speculating that she had wisdom (and where is the evidence for that?), yet desired wisdom (Genesis 3:6) and was beguiled (3:13) in her quest for it. And are you suggesting that she did not know the difference between what they were told to do and not to do? What you call lack of evidence actually seems to be denial, what you call speculation is ascertaining (and you do that a few times in your reply)! I think you are conflating knowledge with wisdom, and knowledge of material operations with knowledge of good and evil.

You can know what to do and what not to do and yet not know or understand which is evil or wrong and which is right or good, especially in a new situation or context. Children do it all the time, and carry this tendency into adulthood. This is the difference between knowing what someone says and knowing what it means in terms of good and evil.

There is also a difference between knowing what is good and pleasant in terms of the five senses (and this is what the Lord provided in Eden) and what is good in terms of the Spirit. This is a biblically sound, LDS principle which is also taught in the rest of LDS canon. You brought up 2:9, which contradicts with 2:17 (the Lord made the tree of knowledge pleasant and good for food, yet it brought death). The Good News makes death not so bad, and in fact, it actually makes it good, doesn’t it, for it leads to life eternal, and the Lord knowing this all along prepared accordingly. There is nothing wrong with God knowing more than Adam and Eve.

Please do not appeal to what you call “LDS scripture” to make a point if you do not understand or appreciate it.

At some point before the Fall, Adam and Eve had to learn to dress and keep the garden and then exercise what they had been taught. No need for wisdom there, just childlike acquiescence. The same with multiplying and replenishing, and subduing and having dominion over the earth, which I would say requires a lot more instruction, understanding and wisdom than a childlike tending of the garden flora and fauna. If they were to thus practice the pattern of God by placing them upon the earth, they would have to have a semblance of His wisdom in bringing forth and raising children, which is far greater than tending a garden or animals. They would require a more advanced understanding of opposition than a tree of life and a tree of knowledge (3:22). Just as God taught them to tend and keep the garden at a pace they could maintain in practice, so He taught them to be fruitful and multiply in all its ramifications at a pace they could maintain in practice. If you see no evidence of that to speculate, please ask for it. (Hint: was the Lord really surprised by anything? Did He not have the Good News prepared from the foundation of the world – Matthew 25:34?).

Certainly, Adam and Eve had the inherent capacity to be fruitful and multiply, but unlike the plants and animals you compare them with (really?), they required more than mere instinct to be successful (compare 1:22 with 1:26-30). While they had each other to work with, they didn’t yet have all the necessary instruction and wisdom to live even further above the animal level, or to impart wisdom and knowledge of good and evil to their offspring (what plant or animal does that?)

You also do injustice to Eve’s motives by not understanding the chapters of Genesis. Why not allow that she did believe and rely on God’s words but was yet beguiled by Satan? Willfulness needn’t have been a factor; or are you saying God made her willful (and how does that square with 2:18)?

If God made the forbidden fruit “pleasant to the sight, and good for food…” and “to be desired to make one wise,” why would Eve not conclude that it would perform that very function in light of her beguiled state?

I don’t think you understand 2 Corinthians 11:3, nor the whole chapter. The apostle Paul does not refer to the beguiling of a person as the corruption of a person's mind. He suggests that as Eve was beguiled by the serpent, professed Christians are worse off (corrupted) by suffering false apostles to teach them (verse 13). I think the sarcasm in verse 19 shows that while Eve correctly did not think herself wise, those who become corrupted do.

Take heed of whoever is teaching you incorrect and false notions!

EDIT: Don't sinners also bless the name of God after they sin [and now the context:] after they repent and receive a hope in Christ and His forgiveness?

Edited by CV75
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On 6/20/2018 at 10:58 AM, CV75 said:

But you are speculating that she had wisdom (and where is the evidence for that?), yet desired wisdom (Genesis 3:6) and was beguiled (3:13) in her quest for it.

Thank you for the continued conversation. Even though we disagree in some places, I do appreciate it ...

Prior to the Fall, I am not sure what level of wisdom Adam and Eve had.  They had intelligence and knowledge,
which some would equate with wisdom possibly. But we can be sure they were sinless before the Fall.


And are you suggesting that she did not know the difference between what they were toldto do and not to do?

Adam and Eve knew what to do and what not to do and the difference.

 

You can know what to do and what not to do and yet not know or understand which is evil or wrong and which is right or good, especially in a new situation or context.

When God tells you not to do something, it is safe to say that going contrary to God is not good (wrong/evil).


There is also a difference between knowing what is good and pleasant in terms of the five senses (and this is what the Lord provided in Eden) and what is good in terms of the Spirit.

Since the trees were pleasant to the sight of them, this means they had joy before the Fall.  Eve also experienced
pleasure 'before' eating from the forbidden tree.  The Book of Mormon says they knew no misery nor joy
before the Fall.

If you still believe Adam and Eve had no joy/pleasure before the Fall, you might want to think about how Adam and
Eve could worship God without joy/pleasure.


This is a biblically sound, LDS principle which is also taught in the rest of LDS canon. You brought up 2:9, which contradicts with 2:17 (the Lord made the tree of knowledge pleasant and good for food, yet it brought death).


 
Yes, but one particular tree was forbidden for them to partake of.
 
 

 


At some point before the Fall, Adam and Eve had to learn to dress and keep the garden and then exercise what they had been taught. No need for wisdom there, just childlike acquiescence. The same with multiplying and replenishing, and subduing and having dominion over the earth, which I would say requires a lot more instruction, understanding and wisdom than a childlike tending of the garden flora and fauna.

Yes. But I believe Adam and Eve knew how to procreate and they had the ability to procreate. From what
I understand of LDS teachings, Adam and Eve could not have children before the Fall (i.e. they did not
have the ability).

By the way, do you believe the plants and animals could procreate 'before' the Fall?  How did they learn how
to do that?  Or was it a natural instinct ingrained by God into them?


Certainly, Adam and Eve had the inherent capacity to be fruitful and multiply, but unlike the plants and animals you compare them with (really?), they required more than mere instinct to be successful (compare 1:22 with 1:26-30).

Besides capacity (I suppose you mean future potential), do you believe Adam and Eve had the ability 
(power) to have children before the Fall?  From what I have from LDS teachings, they gained this ability
only with the Fall.

The LDS Church's Proclamation about the Family says, "THE FIRST COMMANDMENT that God gave to 
Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife.'

Did the commandment to eat from the allowed trees pertain to their then future potential to eat or their
then current ability to eat?

Did the commandment to dress and keep the Garden pertain to their future potential or their then current
ability to perform the task?


You also do injustice to Eve’s motives by not understanding the chapters of Genesis. Why 


not allow that she did believe and rely on God’s words but was yet beguiled by Satan?

Eve did not want to live in obedience to God's command and she fell for Satan's lie that she would not die.  
A temptation to become like God (or become a God) is quite tempting.


Willfulness needn’t have been a factor; or are you saying God made her willful (and how does that square with 2:18)?

God made Adam and Eve with the freedom to choose.  They were able to obey or disobey.  No one
forced them to eat from the forbidden tree.



If God made the forbidden fruit “pleasant to the sight, and good for food…” and “to be desired to make one wise,” why would Eve not conclude that it would perform that very 
function in light of her beguiled state?

If God told me that eating from a particular tree would cause my cancer to disappear but he told me not
to eat from that tree, I would not eat from that tree.

Would you?



I don’t think you understand 2 Corinthians 11:3, nor the whole chapter. The apostle Paul does not refer to the beguiling of a person as the corruption of a person's mind. He 
suggests that as Eve was beguiled by the serpent, professed Christians are worse off (corrupted) by suffering false apostles to teach them (verse 13). I think the sarcasm 
in verse 19 shows that while Eve correctly did not think herself wise, those who become corrupted do.

As Satan led Eve astray, he also uses false apostles to lead people astray.  That was my point.  In both cases, it
is a corruption (a beguiling).


EDIT: Don't sinners also bless the name of God after they sin [and now the context:] after they repent and receive a hope in Christ and His forgiveness?

But God did not tell people to sin so they could then receive forgiveness.

Thanks,
Jim

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