Bees understand the concept of zero

[cdowis]

 

Quote

 

In research published in the journal Science, Australian and French researchers tested whether honey bees can rank numerical quantities and understand that zero belongs at the lower end of a sequence of numbers.

Associate Professor Adrian Dyer, from RMIT University in Melbourne, Australia, said the number zero was the backbone of modern maths and technological advancements.

"Zero is a difficult concept to understand and a mathematical skill that doesn't come easily -- it takes children a few years to learn," Dyer said.

"We've long believed only humans had the intelligence to get the concept, but recent research has shown monkeys and birds have the brains for it as well.

"What we haven't known -- until now -- is whether insects can also understand zero."

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/06/180607141031.htm

[cdowis]

Elsewhere I have suggested that matter -- atoms, dust -- has intelligence.

Helaman 12 [7] O how great is the nothingness of the children of men; yea, even they are less than the dust of the earth. [8] For behold, the dust of the earth moveth hither and thither, to the dividing asunder, at the command of our great and everlasting God.

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, cdowis said:

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/06/180607141031.htm

I think they think more in terms of "empty" or "none" rather than what we think of as "zero".

No more nectar in that flower because I was just in there and took it.  Time to move on to the next flower.

[cdowis]

 

Quote

Trained to pick the lowest number out of a series of options, a honeybee chooses a blank image, revealing an understanding of the concept of zero.

Thus, a concept of numbers including zero, not just "empty" as a static state.

"Zero is a difficult concept to understand and a mathematical skill that doesn't come easily -- it takes children a few years to learn," Dyer said.

Edited June 14, 2018 by cdowis

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, cdowis said:

If you read the article  ...

Trained to pick the lowest number out of a series of options, a honeybee chooses a blank image, revealing an understanding of the concept of zero.

Thus, a concept of numbers including zero, no just "empty"

The concept of zero involves more than just the concept of nothing.  It also involves the concept that anything multiplied by zero is also and always nothing. 

Now I'm not even convinced that study shows that the scientists who did that study understand the concept of zero.  Blank images do not convey the concept of zero.

[cdowis]

37 minutes ago, Ahab said:

The concept of zero involves more than just the concept of nothing.  It also involves the concept that anything multiplied by zero is also and always nothing. 

Now I'm not even convinced that study shows that the scientists who did that study understand the concept of zero.  Blank images do not convey the concept of zero.

You cannot understand zero   unless you know multiplication?

Whatever...... I'm not going to argue with you.

Edited June 14, 2018 by cdowis

[cdowis]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

I think they think more in terms of "empty" or "none" rather than what we think of as "zero".

No more nectar in that flower because I was just in there and took it.  Time to move on to the next flower.

Does a flower have ZERO nectar?  Or does the bee realize there is too little left  to take it all?

Zero is a discrete  number, not an analog state (very little).  They did not test the latter concept.

Edited June 14, 2018 by cdowis

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, cdowis said:

Does a flower have ZERO nectar?  Or does the bee realize there is too little left  to take it all?

Probably not zero nectar.  Yeah, probably just to the point where the bee feels it shouldn't' take any more.

Kinda like me maybe when I leave a little bit of drink in my glass without taking it all.

[Calm]

I would like to know if the blank option was part of the training or novel to the testing of comprehension.

If so it seems like they were taught to rank images and don't comprehend it as zero but just the image they were trained was the one most likely to get rewards for.  Think of it as being trained to choose by color...trained that blue gets more rewards than green, red more than blue, yellow more than blue, and no color or white more than yellow...they could be just reading it as another image and not an absence of image.

I would like to know if they were trained in all combinations first or if only some and then when novel combinations of numbers were presented, they were able to extrapolate the relationships (never trained with 1 and 3 for example, but were trained with 1 and 2 and 2 and 3 and then were able to come up with 1 is lower than 3 on their own).

I trained chicks to peck at lights for food in a previous life.

Edited June 14, 2018 by Calm

[Ahab]

Rigged

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

I would like to know if the blank option was part of the training or novel to the testing of comprehension.

If so it seems like they were taught to rank images and don't comprehend it as zero but just the image they were trained was the one most likely to get rewards for.  Think of it as being trained to choose by color...trained that blue gets more rewards than green, red more than blue, yellow more than blue, and no color or white more than yellow...they could be just reading it as another image and not an absence of image.

I would like to know if they were trained in all combinations first or if only some and then when novel combinations of numbers were presented, they were able to extrapolate the relationships (never trained with 1 and 3 for example, but were trained with 1 and 2 and 2 and 3 and then were able to come up with 1 is lower than 3 on their own).

Rigged!  The test was rigged!  It was a rigged test, I say!

Quote

I trained chicks to peck at lights for food in a previous life.

Fascinating!  How much food were they able to get from the lights?

Zero, or more than zero?

 

Edited June 14, 2018 by Ahab

[nuclearfuels]

17 hours ago, cdowis said:

Elsewhere I have suggested that matter -- atoms, dust -- has intelligence.

Helaman 12 [7] O how great is the nothingness of the children of men; yea, even they are less than the dust of the earth. [8] For behold, the dust of the earth moveth hither and thither, to the dividing asunder, at the command of our great and everlasting God.

 

17 hours ago, cdowis said:

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/06/180607141031.htm

“And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom. … And unto every kingdom is given a law.” (D&C 88:37–38.)

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1983/09/seek-learning-even-by-study-and-also-by-faith?lang=eng

[snowflake]

23 hours ago, cdowis said:

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/06/180607141031.htm

Taxpayer money being wasted on more worthless "science". I'm sure they are applying for another grant so they can "continue to research and understand the bees math skills"....

[ksfisher]

7 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Taxpayer money being wasted on more worthless "science". I'm sure they are applying for another grant so they can "continue to research and understand the bees math skills"....

As a person who keeps bees I find the study extremely interesting.

I'm also in support of research that helps us better understand the creatures God created, looked upon and pronounced "good," and put us on this planet with.

[cdowis]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

Taxpayer money being wasted on more worthless "science". I'm sure they are applying for another grant so they can "continue to research and understand the bees math skills"....

If you had actually read the article, it mentioned possible application for AI

[Ahab]

13 minutes ago, cdowis said:

If you had actually read the article, it mentioned possible application for AI

IF they had simply avoided using the word "zero" and instead talked about how bees can tell the difference between nothing and something and how much of something when there is something, then I wouldn't have made my focus on whether or not the used the term "zero" correctly.,

AI can be supported with if/then and if not/then statements.  There is no need to understand the concept of zero to create long lists of what-to-do situations in various circumstances which would result in what could look like intelligence.

I don't understand why those scientists seem to think it's necessary or even helpful to do something with bees to make a case for AI, though. I suppose training bees to do such and such in various circumstances could look like AI, too, but I would say the bees are already intelligent, with no AI involved, and the studies would simply show that the bees can be trained to do things depending on circumstances.

Edited June 15, 2018 by Ahab

[cdowis]

39 minutes ago, Ahab said:

IF they had simply avoided using the word "zero" and instead talked about how bees can tell the difference between nothing and something and how much of something when there is something, then I wouldn't have made my focus on whether or not the used the term "zero" correctly.,

AI can be supported with if/then and if not/then statements.  There is no need to understand the concept of zero to create long lists of what-to-do situations in various circumstances which would result in what could look like intelligence.

Programming AI applications is outside my realm of expertise, but, apparently, you think you do know what you are talking about.

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, cdowis said:

Programming AI applications is outside my realm of expertise, but, apparently, you think you do know what you are talking about.

I know enough to know AI is about making something that appears to be intelligent, able to make intelligent choices.  Doing that with computers is about programming them with if/then and if not/then statements for various situations.

Many scientists consider our "brains" to operate like very complex computers, analyzing situations and making choices very quickly.  What they don't seem to realize is that our spirit is what gives us our intelligence, our mind is our spirit, not our brain. 

And bees have spirits too, intelligent spirits, just not nearly as intelligent as the spirits of our kind of being.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, snowflake said:

Taxpayer money being wasted on more worthless "science". I'm sure they are applying for another grant so they can "continue to research and understand the bees math skills"....

As a taxpayer I support science that does not have obvious economic or military value because knowing more is good and makes people happy and because it often leads to discoveries that do have more material value.

If you want to live in ignorance of anything without direct military or economic value might I suggest going somewhere where science is structured more towards that paradigm. Perhaps China or Russia or Nazi Germany would be more to your liking.