JAHS Posted June 11, 2018 Author Share Posted June 11, 2018 Just now, Robert F. Smith said: By the way, what would we say if research later reveals that Earthlike DNA were to be found on Mars? https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/08/opinions/nasa-curiosity-rover-mars-organic-matter-opinion-lunine/index.html . It just means the same person(God) is responsible for it being there. But I don't think that will happen because if we are created in God's image any other similar being created in God's image would not be able to live on that planet, although we know that God has placed other human beings on other planets somewhere in the universe. Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 2 hours ago, snowflake said: I'm often confused why the LDS don't believe in science. The big bang clearly supports ex-nihilo. Sorry, good buddy, but it is an absolute law of science that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed -- Law of Conservation of Mass. It is instead the adherents of Judeo-Christian tradition who dogmatically and falsely claim that Genesis 1 entails creatio ex nihilo. Why don't they believe in science? I don't know, but it is clear that they cannot read the Hebrew text of Genesis one, which plainly has creation from pre-existing matter. So E. Speiser, Genesis, Anchor Bible 1 (Doubleday, 1964). Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, JAHS said: It just means the same person(God) is responsible for it being there. But I don't think that will happen because if we are created in God's image any other similar being created in God's image would not be able to live on that planet, although we know that God has placed other human beings on other planets somewhere in the universe. Who said anything about humans on Mars? The DNA may simply be the blueprint for bacteria or plant-life there. Would be very hard to explain how it got there, without admitting Gods (or other sentient beings, such as alien Engineers) were involved. Link to comment
JAHS Posted June 11, 2018 Author Share Posted June 11, 2018 18 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Who said anything about humans on Mars? The DNA may simply be the blueprint for bacteria or plant-life there. Would be very hard to explain how it got there, without admitting Gods (or other sentient beings, such as alien Engineers) were involved. Well, I'm not God but if I didn't plan to put humans on the planet, what purpose would it serve to put plants or bacteria on it? Link to comment
RevTestament Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 41 minutes ago, snowflake said: Rev I agree with your first paragraph, there are huge holes in the big bang. But the concept of a beginning of the universe sits perfectly well with the bible. I don't understand where you get the concept of earth creation in Genesis 1:2....why are you skipping Genesis 1:1 which is when the earth is described as being created, time (beginning), space (heaven) and matter (earth) come into reality on day one.....you have to have all 3 for the other 2 to exist. The earth is the epicenter of God's creation and was created on day 1...it was without form and void. The stars (and all the other galaxies) were created later. So according to the bible the earth is older than the sun...wow! 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. The Bible says nothing about the other galaxies. It says the lesser lights were formed/created. I agree. They were. Every single one you see with your eyes is in the Milky Way Galaxy, which was formed. Our scriptures teach everthing was formed spiritually first. This could describe the order in which God conceived of things. First, he conceived of a new earth. Then He designed the perfect sun for this earth, and a perfect moon, which btw is a mere reflection of the glory of the Sun or His Son. It seems that creation is designed to be a reflection of heavenly things. Or it could describe the order of the appearance of things from the perspective of the earth. When the earth was formed its atmosphere would have been very opaque, and the sun would not appear as a light in the sky but just as "day." This is comparable to modern day Venus which has a day an night but one cannot see the Sun. I admit to not having a complete answer. I am not skipping Genesis 1:1. I agree that in the beginning of this cycle of the word, that the earth was without form. It had to be formed from "the waters." Why do you skip that? I do not consider the beginning of this earth as the beginning of time. That is a huge assumption on your part. I think the universe already existed as did "the waters" the earth was formed from. Genesis is merely describing the formation of our solar system from the perspective of the earth, and perhaps the creation of our galaxy as the heavens coming into view as the atmosphere cleared. Quote Where in the bible do you come up with your support for Joseph's theory? Was Adam created "ex nihilo"? No, he was created from dust. Was the earth created ex nihilo? No, it was created from "the waters." There simply is no scriptural description of an ex nihilo creation. It describes exactly what Joseph Smith said - creation/formation from matter already in existence. It never says God formed "the waters." He used them to form the earth. Thus, at the time of the beginning of the word, the waters had every indication of already existing even if the earth was as yet without form. Science agrees. Once the earth was without form, but it was formed from cobbling together other matter. It is energy reorganized. Trying to take the creation before this point is unscriptural - but mere interpretation. Link to comment
snowflake Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 10 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Was Adam created "ex nihilo"? No, he was created from dust. Was the earth created ex nihilo? No, it was created from "the waters." There simply is no scriptural description of an ex nihilo creation. It describes exactly what Joseph Smith said - creation/formation from matter already in existence. It never says God formed "the waters." He used them to form the earth. Thus, at the time of the beginning of the word, the waters had every indication of already existing even if the earth was as yet without form. Science agrees. Once the earth was without form, but it was formed from cobbling together other matter. It is energy reorganized. Trying to take the creation before this point is unscriptural - but mere interpretation. 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Link to comment
snowflake Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 11 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Was Adam created "ex nihilo"? No, he was created from dust. Was the earth created ex nihilo? No, it was created from "the waters." There simply is no scriptural description of an ex nihilo creation. It describes exactly what Joseph Smith said - creation/formation from matter already in existence. It never says God formed "the waters." He used them to form the earth. Thus, at the time of the beginning of the word, the waters had every indication of already existing even if the earth was as yet without form. Science agrees. Once the earth was without form, but it was formed from cobbling together other matter. It is energy reorganized. Trying to take the creation before this point is unscriptural - but mere interpretation. Where do the LDS come up with Joseph's take on all of this? (JOD? POGP) specifically.....what scriptures do you use to support the "reorganizing of matter/LDS take"? Link to comment
RevTestament Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 5 minutes ago, snowflake said: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: So you admit that in the beginning he created you, and you pre-existed your present bodily form? Link to comment
RevTestament Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, snowflake said: Where do the LDS come up with Joseph's take on all of this? (JOD? POGP) specifically.....what scriptures do you use to support the "reorganizing of matter/LDS take"? The Book of Abraham is the closest. It indicates God has created many other worlds before this one, but you can also look up teachings of Joseph Smith. D & C indicates that matter was reorganized to form this earth. God says He will make a new earth and new heaven, and that the former(this one) will not come into mind. Isaiah 65. Using the plain reading, that indicates a creation from existing matter rather than a whole new universe. Link to comment
Ahab Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 11 minutes ago, snowflake said: Where do the LDS come up with Joseph's take on all of this? (JOD? POGP) specifically.....what scriptures do you use to support the "reorganizing of matter/LDS take"? https://www.lds.org/topics/creation?lang=eng Link to comment
JAHS Posted June 11, 2018 Author Share Posted June 11, 2018 11 minutes ago, snowflake said: Where do the LDS come up with Joseph's take on all of this? (JOD? POGP) specifically.....what scriptures do you use to support the "reorganizing of matter/LDS take"? One of the meanings of the Hebrew verb 'baurau', translated as "create" in the Old Testament, is "to organize, form, or fashion"; the same way a carpenter might organize together some already existing pieces of wood to make a table. In the Old Testament the same Hebrew word used in Genesis for create('baurau'), is used in the following scripture: "I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King." (Isa 43:15) Obviously God did not create Israel out of nothing. He organized it out of a league of tribes bound together by a covenant with Him (Josh. 24) For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; (D&C 93: 33) Matter is eternal but can be formed in different ways to create something. 1 Link to comment
snowflake Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 19 minutes ago, RevTestament said: So you admit that in the beginning he created you, and you pre-existed your present bodily form? Sure....absolutely God created me....not sure what you mean by pre-existed......as an intelligence?.....as a spiritual offspring of heavenly father and mother?....I don't think the LDS take on this is very clear...what were the intelligences? What were you before you were a spirit baby? How did heavenly father and mother "create" spirit babies?.....it is a lot of spirits!?!? Link to comment
RevTestament Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, snowflake said: Where do the LDS come up with Joseph's take on all of this? (JOD? POGP) specifically.....what scriptures do you use to support the "reorganizing of matter/LDS take"? 2 hours ago, RevTestament said: The Book of Abraham is the closest. It indicates God has created many other worlds before this one, but you can also look up teachings of Joseph Smith. D & C indicates that matter was reorganized to form this earth. God says He will make a new earth and new heaven, and that the former(this one) will not come into mind. Isaiah 65. Using the plain reading, that indicates a creation from existing matter rather than a whole new universe. I should add that in a sense LDS do believe in creation ex nihilo. We believe everything was created spiritually first. See Moses. I take this largely to mean that God created things first in His mind or by His spirit. All creation was conceived there. There it was conceived, designed, and ordered. In a temporal sense that is creation from nothing, but that is where all creation begins - from thought. Man creates the same way. We conceive an idea and then proceed to form or create that idea into existence by using raw materials, although I have created programs by organizing representations of energy. I guess electricity is a raw material too though. To poof everything into existence from nothing is not a scriptural idea. It comes from Greek neo-platonism, and was superimposed upon Christianity by the early Greek theologians. Abr 3:22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; An alternative word to organized might be created or formed. So in this sense God created the spirits, because He organized them into the order of creation. I don't read that to mean these intelligences or spirits did not exist theretofore. Edited June 11, 2018 by RevTestament Link to comment
Ahab Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 1 minute ago, snowflake said: Sure....absolutely God created me....not sure what you mean by pre-existed......as an intelligence?.....as a spiritual offspring of heavenly father and mother?....I don't think the LDS take on this is very clear...what were the intelligences? What were you before you were a spirit baby? How did heavenly father and mother "create" spirit babies?.....it is a lot of spirits!?!? A father and mother create offspring by combining themselves, or parts of themselves. We came from our parents, whatever our parents are or were. And we were wherever they were when they created us. Link to comment
snowflake Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 17 minutes ago, Ahab said: https://www.lds.org/topics/creation?lang=eng All of these scriptures seem to point to an ex-nihilo creation. Here is some more for the LDS book of Moses....to me it really sounds like Joseph just did his own editing of Genesis. 1 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I reveal unto you concerning this heaven, and this earth; write the words which I speak. I am the Beginning and the End, the Almighty God; by mine Only Begotten I created these things; yea, in the beginning I created the heaven, and the earth upon which thou standest. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and I caused darkness to come up upon the face of the deep; and my Spirit moved upon the face of the water; for I am God. 3 And I, God, said: Let there be light; and there was light. Link to comment
RevTestament Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, snowflake said: Sure....absolutely God created me....not sure what you mean by pre-existed......as an intelligence?.....as a spiritual offspring of heavenly father and mother?....I don't think the LDS take on this is very clear...what were the intelligences? What were you before you were a spirit baby? How did heavenly father and mother "create" spirit babies?.....it is a lot of spirits!?!? Ok. if you believe in the pre-existence, my interpretation of it is that I was a spirit. My "creation" or formation involved being given a corporeal or temporal form. Perhaps unlike other Mormons, I do not believe God created our spirits. I believe they always existed. See Abraham again. Abraham 3:18-19,23 18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two aspirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are bgnolaum, or eternal. Abraham 5:7-8 7 And the aGods formed man from the bdust of the ground, and took his cspirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living dsoul. 8 And the Gods planted a garden, eastward in aEden, and there they put the man, whose spirit they had put into the body which they had formed. Note nothing in there about God forming man's spirit. He takes man's spirit and puts it in the body He formed. In Genesis man is not live until God breathes the breath/spirit of life into him. Lest you view "Gods" as sacrilegious, I suggest you look up Elim in the Hebrew Bible. To hide it, the KJV translates it as "the mighty." I think the Semitic meaning is more like "the powers," but in English parlance it is plural for El or "God." Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 2 hours ago, RevTestament said: It is very similar to divining a concept in our mind. We typically do this with language. We think in concepts represented by our known words. Thus, before we form/create anything we think it or "speak it" to ourselves, and begin to shape it. The LDS scriptures indicate to me that God formed the world this way. He thought what tasks would particular spirits be appropriate for, and assigned them to that task, and thus "created" it spiritually. I believe Yeshua will do the same with the new earth - to form and organize it according to His will. It seems there is a scripture on my tongue here, but I can't seem to find it. Exactly. We mentally create concepts out of words and then express them to others, so culture enters the process immediately through language. It's like the Helen Keller moment with the word "water" and becomes the foundation of all the semantic confusions in the world, literalism versus symbolism, translation issues, all misunderstood communication, including nearly all the threads on this board. Link to comment
strappinglad Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 In one of the creation stories it says that after each creation event , the gods " watched until they were obeyed " . That seems to argue against the ' poof ' concept. Link to comment
RevTestament Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 40 minutes ago, snowflake said: All of these scriptures seem to point to an ex-nihilo creation. Here is some more for the LDS book of Moses....to me it really sounds like Joseph just did his own editing of Genesis. 1 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I reveal unto you concerning this heaven, and this earth; write the words which I speak. I am the Beginning and the End, the Almighty God; by mine Only Begotten I created these things; yea, in the beginning I created the heaven, and the earth upon which thou standest. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and I caused darkness to come up upon the face of the deep; and my Spirit moved upon the face of the water; for I am God. As we have already explained, this is not creation ex nihilo. You are just programmed into thinking in those terms. He formed the earth by moving His spirit across "the waters" which the Bible says nothing about being created by God. So He took something that is called "the waters" and from this came the earth which theretofore was "without form." Quote 3 And I, God, said: Let there be light; and there was light. Light is not something that God created in the beginning and stored up for our day. It is constantly created by a fusion process. So God cobbled together enough hydrogen, etc, to start a fusion reaction which still operates in our day. Did God create every star "in the beginning"? No. The heaven of the earth is the Milky Way Galaxy, which came into being much like our Sun. However, some stars are much older than our Sun. Red dwarves for instance burn their energy much slower in a cooler environment, and many are much older than our Sun. Our Sun was designed to be the perfect light for the perfect size planet to accommodate all the spirits waiting to come to it. It was all designed lovingly for us according to the foreknowledge of God as the NT says. Link to comment
theplains Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 5 hours ago, snowflake said: Sure....absolutely God created me....not sure what you mean by pre-existed......as an intelligence?.....as a spiritual offspring of heavenly father and mother?....I don't think the LDS take on this is very clear...what were the intelligences? What were you before you were a spirit baby? How did heavenly father and mother "create" spirit babies?.....it is a lot of spirits!?!? According to Abraham 3:18, spirits did not have a beginning. These beings are then classified as 'organized' intelligences in verse 22. "Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal." "Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones..." Thanks, Jim 1 Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 7 hours ago, JAHS said: Well, I'm not God but if I didn't plan to put humans on the planet, what purpose would it serve to put plants or bacteria on it? I read an anthology of scifi when I was a kid back in the 1950s, and one short story in particular caught my attention: Astronauts found a garden planet which had all manner of plants, but no sentient beings or animals. Those astronauts tried to puzzle it out, and eventually realized that the entire planet was a greenhouse used by someone to prepare plants for transfer to other planets. Link to comment
Paiute Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 20 hours ago, cinepro said: Sadly, that's one of the big problems with the idea that God used evolution to "create" animals, plants and humans. It's not just what happened "later". It's the process used to do the initial creation. It might make a little sense to think that God used the process to create the final "creation" that we see, like dogs and cats and snakes and birds and humans. It's the dead ends that never went anywhere, and vestigial leftovers, that argue against an omniscient creator using the process to create the final human and other animal forms. Plus per the ridiculous theory, Man is still evolving and millions of years from now current humans would be considered a lower life form, including the Savior who is in the express image of His Father. That is why the theory is bogus. Link to comment
Paiute Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 23 hours ago, JAHS said: "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth." (Moses 3: 5) So, there were 6 periods of creation, during which time some plants and animals were created. Does the spiritual creation include only these plants and animals or does it also include all forms of life that came afterwards through mutation or natural selection throughout the centuries? And does it also include all the various plants and animals that man has created through scientific means like cross-breeding and cross-pollination? Did God know ahead of time that all these would later appear on the earth and so He created them spiritually also? You're all wrong, every single one of you. There is no account of the spiritual creation in the scriptures, just differing accounts of the physical creation: Joseph Fielding Smith said: “The account of the creation of the earth as given in Genesis, and the Book of Moses, and as given in the temple, is the Creation of the physical earth, and of physical animals and plants.… There is no account of the Creation of man or other forms of life when they were created as spirits.” (Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., comp. Bruce R. McConkie, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56, 1:75.) https://www.lds.org/ensign/1986/01/four-accounts-of-the-creation?lang=eng Link to comment
JAHS Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 38 minutes ago, Paiute said: You're all wrong, every single one of you. There is no account of the spiritual creation in the scriptures, just differing accounts of the physical creation: Joseph Fielding Smith said: “The account of the creation of the earth as given in Genesis, and the Book of Moses, and as given in the temple, is the Creation of the physical earth, and of physical animals and plants.… There is no account of the Creation of man or other forms of life when they were created as spirits.” (Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., comp. Bruce R. McConkie, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56, 1:75.) https://www.lds.org/ensign/1986/01/four-accounts-of-the-creation?lang=eng Here's the entire quote from Doctrines of Salvation "There is no account of the creation of man or other forms of life when they were created as spirits. There is just the simple statement that they were so created before the physical creation. The statements in Moses 3:5 and Genesis 2:5 are interpolations thrown into the account of the physical creation, explaining that all things were first created in the spirit existence in heaven before they were placed upon this earth. We were all created untold ages before we were placed on this earth. We discover from Abraham 3:22-28, that it was before the earth was formed that the plan of salvation was presented to the spirits, or "intelligences." This being true, then man, animals and plants were not created in the spirit at the time of the creation of the earth, but long before. In other words he was saying there is no direct statements of the spiritual creation as it happened, but the scriptures do say that it did happen. Link to comment
Josh Khinder Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 15 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Therefore Jesus was not a man. Brilliant. Jesus was never created since he was God from eternity Mosiah 3:5 Link to comment
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