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All things created spiritually before naturally

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"And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth." (Moses 3: 5)
So, there were 6 periods of creation, during which time some plants and animals were created. Does the spiritual creation include only these plants and animals or does it also include all forms of life that came afterwards through mutation or natural selection throughout the centuries? And does it also include all the various plants and animals that man has created through scientific means like cross-breeding and cross-pollination? Did God know ahead of time that all these would later appear on the earth and so He created them spiritually also? 

 

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The answers to those questions are all in the sealed portion of the plates.

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1 hour ago, JAHS said:

"And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth." (Moses 3: 5)
So, there were 6 periods of creation, during which time some plants and animals were created. Does the spiritual creation include only these plants and animals or does it also include all forms of life that came afterwards through mutation or natural selection throughout the centuries? And does it also include all the various plants and animals that man has created through scientific means like cross-breeding and cross-pollination? Did God know ahead of time that all these would later appear on the earth and so He created them spiritually also? 

 

Perfectly reasonable paradigms for interpreting scripture, imo.

Remember God is an exalted human so all human creations are part of His creations. It is His spark of intelligence within us which organizes all we can know.

Of course we will not know how it really happened while we see through a glass, darkly.

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The natural plants and creatures are created from the elements , by accident or design. Are there spiritual elements from which spirits are formed? I know there are differences of opinion on this but I was always under the impression that there are intelligences that are co-eternal with God and spirit bodies were made to clothe those intelligences and later natural bodies were formed to clothe the spiritual bodies. Others think that intelligences = spirits.

As for the OP, I say everything has a spirit, be that individual or group . The termite, for example, has a kind of hive mind. If the queen dies without successor , the entire colony dies also.

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Posted (edited)

1 Cor. 15:

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 

 

The Bible is clear man was made flesh and blood first and believers after will, get resurrected celestial body at resurrection. Very clear only Jesus came from heaven and not any man 

Edited by Josh Khinder

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2 hours ago, JAHS said:

 Did God know ahead of time that all these would later appear on the earth and so He created them spiritually also? 

 

Sadly, that's one of the big problems with the idea that God used evolution to "create" animals, plants and humans.  It's not just what happened "later".  It's the process used to do the initial creation. 

It might make a little sense to think that God used the process to create the final "creation" that we see, like dogs and cats and snakes and birds and humans.  It's the dead ends that never went anywhere, and vestigial leftovers, that argue against an omniscient creator using the process to create the final human and other animal forms.

 

tree-of-life_2000.png

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25 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Sadly, that's one of the big problems with the idea that God used evolution to "create" animals, plants and humans.  It's not just what happened "later".  It's the process used to do the initial creation. 

It might make a little sense to think that God used the process to create the final "creation" that we see, like dogs and cats and snakes and birds and humans.  It's the dead ends that never went anywhere, and vestigial leftovers, that argue against an omniscient creator using the process to create the final human and other animal forms.

 

tree-of-life_2000.png

 

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It is clear Jesus created everything Ex Nihilo 

Jacob 4:9 For behold, by the power of his a word man came upon the face of the earth, which earth was created by the power of his word. Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the dearth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure?

 

Psalm 33:9: For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.

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30 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

It is clear Jesus created everything Ex Nihilo 

Jacob 4:9 For behold, by the power of his a word man came upon the face of the earth, which earth was created by the power of his word. Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the dearth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure?

Psalm 33:9: For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.

 

Genesis describes this as God speaking and His spirit moving across "the waters" to create the earth. 

Let's see - earth from water? That's not "Ex Nihilo." Sorry, the Bible says no such thing to support Ex Nihilo creation. Adam was not created Ex Nihilo either. He was created from the dust. "Ex Nihilo" is just an early theological invention - as is the doctrine of the Trinity.

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3 hours ago, JAHS said:

"And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth." (Moses 3: 5)
So, there were 6 periods of creation, during which time some plants and animals were created. Does the spiritual creation include only these plants and animals or does it also include all forms of life that came afterwards through mutation or natural selection throughout the centuries? And does it also include all the various plants and animals that man has created through scientific means like cross-breeding and cross-pollination? Did God know ahead of time that all these would later appear on the earth and so He created them spiritually also? 

I think a better English word for it is "organized." God organized everything in spirit before it was placed upon the earth - something like He organized the Earth. God did not create spirits ex nihilo. 

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5 hours ago, cinepro said:

It's the dead ends that never went anywhere, and vestigial leftovers, that argue against an omniscient creator using the process to create the final human and other animal forms.

Do you mean that the apparent wastefulness of evolution is an argument against any kind of creation by an intelligent Creator? Or do you just mean that that it's hard to see how an intelligent Creator could have chosen evolution as the mechanism, if the only goal was to produce humans eventually?

In the second case, I agree. And evolution is only a part of it. The whole universe is enormously bigger, and emptier, and stranger, and older than it would need to be, just to be the setting for our little human stories. If we are the only stars of the show then the stage is too big.

The conclusion I draw is not that there is no intelligent Creator, but that we really don't know what the Creator is trying to do with creation. We ourselves are probably only a small part of the total plan. 

In modern times the comparative insignificance of humanity in the cosmos is more clear than it was in ancient times, but the point that we are small potatoes is really a qualitative one, and I'm not sure that human imagination is really doing any better at grasping reality when we boggle at superclusters of galaxies than it was when we were shivering over scary animals.

Quote

When the stars threw down their spears,
And water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile his work to see?
Did He who made the lamb make thee?

 

Quote

Behold now Behemoth, which I made with thee.

 

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7 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Genesis describes this as God speaking and His spirit moving across "the waters" to create the earth. 

Let's see - earth from water? That's not "Ex Nihilo." Sorry, the Bible says no such thing to support Ex Nihilo creation. Adam was not created Ex Nihilo either. He was created from the dust. "Ex Nihilo" is just an early theological invention - as is the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

7 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I think a better English word for it is "organized." God organized everything in spirit before it was placed upon the earth - something like He organized the Earth. God did not create spirits ex nihilo. 

I'm often confused why the LDS don't believe in science. The big bang clearly supports ex-nihilo. 

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11 hours ago, JAHS said:

"And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth." (Moses 3: 5)
So, there were 6 periods of creation, during which time some plants and animals were created. Does the spiritual creation include only these plants and animals or does it also include all forms of life that came afterwards through mutation or natural selection throughout the centuries? And does it also include all the various plants and animals that man has created through scientific means like cross-breeding and cross-pollination? Did God know ahead of time that all these would later appear on the earth and so He created them spiritually also? 

 

I think the expression of a life form’s spiritual template in and through the “flesh” is altered by the forces of the fallen world, just as genetic material and its expression is altered by all kinds of external forces. That is how genetically compromised bodies rise in their perfect form in the resurrection, when the effects of generations of mutation, breeding and other temporal interference are removed. I suppose we see far more variation over the billions of years of our telestial world than there was observed before (or will be) after its temporal existence, since not all physical forms coming about in this world are intended, good or suitable for an eternal, immortal environment. All life will assume the perfect, spiritual form that was conceptualized or organized pre-mortally. I have a hunch that more forms of life are far more “human” than we give them credit for! (see D&C 77:4).

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8 hours ago, Josh Khinder said:

1 Cor. 15:

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 

 

The Bible is clear man was made flesh and blood first and believers after will, get resurrected celestial body at resurrection. Very clear only Jesus came from heaven and not any man 

Therefore Jesus was not a man. :)

Brilliant. 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I think a better English word for it is "organized." God organized everything in spirit before it was placed upon the earth - something like He organized the Earth. God did not create spirits ex nihilo. 

Here is another take:

Before there was language the human mind could not organize anything.

The first human we call Adam God called everything into existence literally. By using words he was able to organize things the way we think about them in words.

And so he called the light and the Darkness day the first day. And so on as we organized all things through language.

That is the broad concept.

And so we can add to that the story that God came from another Universe, had his own universe,  Etc.

We humans create and organize these stories through inspiration.

Even evolution is itself just another story to explain creation, a way of organizing the world in a different way through language.

Every Paradigm we have about anything is a human created story to organize things. At that is what Human Gods do. We organize the universe through their Word, to explain the way they see what is all around us.

You're very comment does this and so does mine, and so does every comment on every board  everywhere, and every human who has ever expressed an opinion. We are creating our own paradigms about how we see what is around us and in a sense organizing matter unorganized into our own worlds.

Anyway that's my world.

And in no way does this view preclude classical Orthodox Mormonism.

It is simply another take on it another way of viewing Mormonism.

Edited by mfbukowski
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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think the expression of a life form’s spiritual template in and through the “flesh” is altered by the forces of the fallen world, just as genetic material and its expression is altered by all kinds of external forces. That is how genetically compromised bodies rise in their perfect form in the resurrection, when the effects of generations of mutation, breeding and other temporal interference are removed. I suppose we see far more variation over the billions of years of our telestial world than there was observed before (or will be) after its temporal existence, since not all physical forms coming about in this world are intended, good or suitable for an eternal, immortal environment. All life will assume the perfect, spiritual form that was conceptualized or organized pre-mortally. I have a hunch that more forms of life are far more “human” than we give them credit for! (see D&C 77:4).

Yet another world organized your way through words. 

Welcome to the world organization business. After all that's what humans do. :)

The spiritual in the likeness of the temporal., and vice versa. 

 

Edited by mfbukowski

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9 hours ago, Josh Khinder said:

1 Cor. 15:

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 

 

The Bible is clear man was made flesh and blood first and believers after will, get resurrected celestial body at resurrection. Very clear only Jesus came from heaven and not any man 

Your first sentence is true, but regarding the second sentence there is plenty of evidence in the bible of a pre-mortal life where all spirits could have come from.

God asked Job:
"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"(Job 38:4, 7)

These scriptures bring up two questions. If there were no pre-earth life why then would God ask Job where he was when he created the earth? God knew where he was but He knew that Job would not be able to remember. And while God was creating the earth, who were all those "sons of God" who "shouted for joy"? They were all of the spirit children of God(us) anxiously anticipating the completion of His work.

In Genesis before God created Adam and placed him on the earth it says:

"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them." (Gen 2:1)

The only thing that the word "host" could be referring to are those spirits who would eventually inhabit the earth God created.

The Lord said to Jeremiah: "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations" (Jer. 1:5). 
Here God explains to Jeremiah that He knew him, sanctified him, and ordained him before he was born. Jeremiah must have existed in some form for this to be possible
The "Preacher" asserted "The spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Eccl. 12:7). You can't return to somewhere if you did not come from there in the first place.

In the New Testament Jesus and his disciples saw a man who had been born blind. The disciples asked if the man was blind due to his own sins or due to his parent's sins.
"And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?" (John 9:1-2)

Jesus explained neither the man nor his parents had sinned, but the man was born blind that the works of God should be made manifest in him (John 9:3), that is, so Jesus could heal him. The account in John gives no reason for us to believe the disciples were insincere or incorrect in asking if the man had sinned prior to his birth. Likewise, Jesus said nothing to indicate it was impossible for the man to have sinned prior to birth. These verses thus imply the man could have sinned prior to birth, that is, he had a pre-earth existence of some type and had the capacity to sin in that existence.
And of course there are plenty of LDS scriptures that confirm this concept.

 

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2 hours ago, snowflake said:

I'm often confused why the LDS don't believe in science. The big bang clearly supports ex-nihilo. 

No, it doesn't. It theorizes everything came from a singularity - something like a black hole - which is not nothing. I discussed this on a recent thread - the reasons why I have come to doubt the big bang theory.  Too many things science has discovered don't align with the theory of the big bang. It has become a theory filled with holes somewhat like swiss cheese. There are several good reasons to believe we simply do not fully understand the red-shifting of light, which is the key foundational principle of the big bang theory. We have learned that it is affected by gravity for instance. This introduces the strong possibility that other things can affect the red shift of light to make galaxies appear to be further than they are. I linked to a paper that for instance says that the theory is not consistent with the projected magnitude of galaxies. There are galaxies which appear to be moving too slowly to get where they are in the big bang, and other issues which have caused scientists to come up with corollary theories like dark matter and dark energy. People seem to forget that the Big Bang is just a theory. And in science observations should align with and support the theory. There seem to be a good number which don't support the Big Bang theory. Thus, the open-minded scientist will be open to alternate theories such as a somewhat static Euclidean Universe. I currently do not believe the Bible describes the creation of the Universe. At most it describes the creation of our galaxy, but it may just be describing its appearance once the earth's atmosphere became clear.

You are of course free not to believe what the Bible says - that God moved His spirit across the waters to create the earth, and to believe in the prevailing scientific swiss cheese theory. You seem to be hard at work trying to ignore the Bible here. Nevertheless, don't accuse me as the one who does not believe the Bible as a LDS. :) I'm sorry it does not support your prevailing traditional Christian view, but in fact supports what Joseph Smith taught - that the earth was formed by organizing matter already in existence. I have a solution to your conundrum - kick the prevailing traditional Christian views and creeds, and believe what the Bible says.

Edited by RevTestament

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12 hours ago, JAHS said:

"And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth." (Moses 3: 5)
So, there were 6 periods of creation, during which time some plants and animals were created. Does the spiritual creation include only these plants and animals or does it also include all forms of life that came afterwards through mutation or natural selection throughout the centuries? And does it also include all the various plants and animals that man has created through scientific means like cross-breeding and cross-pollination? Did God know ahead of time that all these would later appear on the earth and so He created them spiritually also? 

 

I understand the word "naturally" to refer to their and our present condition, mortal, knowing their and our state before that was immortal, before the fall, and I understand the word "creation" to refer to our Father's organization of everything he put on this planet.

What he was calling "good" then was everything he put here in it's spiritual condition, with nothing here being subject to death, then. 

So that tells me that all things, all plants and animals and flying things, can and did and probably still do exist in a spiritual condition without being subject to death, now, with other words being created, initially, with spiritual life placed upon them which may later become mortal.

 

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55 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Yet another world organized your way through words. 

Welcome to the world organization business. After all that's what humans do. :)

The spiritual in the likeness of the temporal., and vice versa. 

 

I hope there's something a lot better than what I just "organized"! LOL

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57 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Here is another take:

Before there was language the human mind could not organize anything.

The first human we call Adam God called everything into existence literally. By using words he was able to organize things the way we think about them in words.

And so he called the light and the Darkness day the first day. And so on as we organized all things through language.

That is the broad concept.

And so we can add to that the story that God came from another Universe, had his own universe,  Etc.

We humans create and organize these stories through inspiration.

Even evolution is itself just another story to explain creation, a way of organizing the world in a different way through language.

Every Paradigm we have about anything is a human created story to organize things. At that is what Human Gods do. We organize the universe through their Word, to explain the way they see what is all around us.

You're very comment does this and so does mine, and so does every comment on every board  everywhere, and every human who has ever expressed an opinion. We are creating our own paradigms about how we see what is around us and in a sense organizing matter unorganized into our own worlds.

Anyway that's my world.

And in no way does this view preclude classical Orthodox Mormonism.

It is simply another take on it another way of viewing Mormonism.

It is very similar to divining a concept in our mind. We typically do this with language. We think in concepts represented by our known words. Thus, before we form/create anything we think it or "speak it" to ourselves, and begin to shape it. The LDS scriptures indicate to me that God formed the world this way. He thought what tasks would particular spirits be appropriate for, and assigned them to that task, and thus "created" it spiritually. I believe Yeshua will do the same with the new earth - to form and organize it according to His will. It seems there is a scripture on my tongue here, but I can't seem to find it. 

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53 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

No, it doesn't. It theorizes everything came from a singularity - something like a black hole - which is not nothing. I discussed this on a recent thread - the reasons why I have come to doubt the big bang theory.  Too many things science has discovered don't align with the theory of the big bang. It has become a theory filled with holes somewhat like swiss cheese. There are several good reasons to believe we simply do not fully understand the red-shifting of light, which is the key foundational principle of the big bang theory. We have learned that it is affected by gravity for instance. This introduces the strong possibility that other things can affect the red shift of light to make galaxies appear to be further than they are. I linked to a paper that for instance says that the theory is not consistent with the projected magnitude of galaxies. There are galaxies which appear to be moving too slowly to get where they are in the big bang, and other issues which have caused scientists to come up with corollary theories like dark matter and dark energy. People seem to forget that the Big Bang is just a theory. And in science observations should align with and support the theory. There seem to be a good number which don't support the Big Bang theory. Thus, the open-minded scientist will be open to alternate theories such as a somewhat static Euclidean Universe. I currently do not believe the Bible describes the creation of the Universe. At most it describes the creation of our galaxy, but it may just be describing its appearance once the earth's atmosphere became clear.

You are of course free not to believe what the Bible says - that God moved His spirit across the waters to create the earth, and to believe in the prevailing scientific swiss cheese theory. You seem to be hard at work trying to ignore the Bible here. Nevertheless, don't accuse me as the one who does not believe the Bible as a LDS. :) I'm sorry it does not support your prevailing traditional Christian view, but in fact supports what Joseph Smith taught - that the earth was formed by organizing matter already in existence. I have a solution to your conundrum - kick the prevailing traditional Christian views and creeds, and believe what the Bible says.

Rev I agree with your first paragraph, there are huge holes in the big bang. But the concept of a beginning of the universe sits perfectly well with the bible. I don't understand where you get the concept of earth creation in Genesis 1:2....why are you skipping Genesis 1:1 which is when the earth is described as being created, time (beginning), space (heaven) and matter (earth) come into reality on day one.....you have to have all 3 for the other 2  to exist. The earth is the epicenter of God's creation and was created on day 1...it was without form and void.  The stars (and all the other galaxies) were created later. So according to the bible the earth is older than the sun...wow! 

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

Where in the bible do you come up with your support for Joseph's theory? 

 

 

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2 hours ago, snowflake said:

I'm often confused why the LDS don't believe in science. The big bang clearly supports ex-nihilo. 

Why do you think the big bang supports ex nihilo creation? It's not out of nothing after all. Indeed in the main attempts to unify quantum mechanics and general relativity most models (either string theory or loop quantum gravity) end up with bubble universes. In string theory you end up with branes which are universes floating in a higher dimensional space. In those cases the big bang most explicitly isn't out of nothing.

Now there are of course good solid reasons to be skeptical of string theory or loop quantum gravity. The lack of really any empirical evidence being the main bit. But even if you ignore those theories I'm not sure the big bang offers anything akin to ex nihilo since it's not technically coming out of nothing, even ignoring the issues of the big bang prior to the planck time.

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14 hours ago, JAHS said:

"And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth." (Moses 3: 5)
So, there were 6 periods of creation, during which time some plants and animals were created. Does the spiritual creation include only these plants and animals or does it also include all forms of life that came afterwards through mutation or natural selection throughout the centuries? And does it also include all the various plants and animals that man has created through scientific means like cross-breeding and cross-pollination? Did God know ahead of time that all these would later appear on the earth and so He created them spiritually also? 

The sequence of Creation of each item is less important than the principle that the spiritual blueprint is conceived beforehand, as with Hebrew tabnit “pattern, shape, form, plan, blueprint” (Ex 25:9,40, Deut 4:17-18, 2 Kings 16:10, Ps 106:20, Isaiah 44:13, Ezek 8:3, 1 Chron 28:11-12) = LXX Greek typos.  Cf. also Hebrew temunah “outline, shape, form, image, similitude, essence”  (Num 12:8, Deut 4:15-16, Job 4:13).  In other words, the plans for construction are drawn up first, and then built in actuality.

Of course God knows the details, and his great plan follows all the principles of geology and biology (the DNA double-helix the basic blueprint for all life).

By the way, what would we say if research later reveals that Earthlike DNA were to be found on Mars?  https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/08/opinions/nasa-curiosity-rover-mars-organic-matter-opinion-lunine/index.html .

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