Tithing & Coercion

[Meerkat]

On 6/8/2018 at 12:14 AM, Bernard Gui said:

For most of my life I have been lower middle class. My mother had to work as a data transcriber because my dad’s salary as a Safeway clerk was insufficient to support our family. Over their lifetime, they paid off the mortgages for two homes and left a modest inheritance for me and my sister. They always cheerfully paid their tithing and attributed their well-being to that act.

Sister Gui and I raised our family of 7 kids on a single school teacher’s income. We often wonder how the heck we did it. Paying tithing was a choice and a promise we made. We were not coerced. It was the first thing we paid. When we had to make the choice between buying groceries and paying tithing, we chose to pay tithing. It was invariably followed by a blessing that kept us going. I never thought the Church treated us unethically. 

 I could give a number of examples. A couple will suffice. When I was in graduate school, we were living on a very small teaching assistantship ($250 per semester, which I miraculously received as a result of paying tithing instead of buying groceries) and my wife’s part-time minimum wage ($1.25/ hour) job in a fabric shop. We struggled from paycheck to paycheck - no student loans. We ate trout I caught in the Provo River and vegetables from our landlord’s garden. One month after budgeting rent, insurance, gas, and a few unexpected bills, we had zero money left for groceries if we paid our tithing. We paid the tithing. The next day, Sis Gui’s parents surprisingly showed up at our door with bags of groceries for us. Her father flew a small plane. They had gone out from Tacoma for a little sightseeing flight around Mt Rainier and felt an impression to fly on down to Provo. On landing and renting a car, they stopped at the grocery store and bought us a couple weeks’ supply of food. Coincidence? I don’t think so. These two experiences established a pattern we have followed ever since. Substantially increasing our fast offering as we became better able has brought even more blessings.

We have not always had everything we wanted, but we have never wanted for anything we needed. For us, it was not that the Church needed or demanded our money, but that we wanted to give our share. It’s been a privilege to pay tithing.

Beautifully put.  My experience has been the same.  I live that commandment because I love it.  The promises are real.  Thanks be to God for the blessings of tithing.

[SettingDogStar]

I figure if God commands it then He will make a way. It’s not the church, it’s God. He asked it to be given to the church in replacement of the Law of Concecration which the Church failed as a whole in living. If anyone has a problem with tithing then I can only imagine the great moaning that will accompany the reinstitution of the Law of Concecration, asking for EVERYTHING to be given to the Kingdom of God.

God will bless those that truly sacrifice in tithing. Jesus didn’t stop the widow giving her last mite, even though He probably knew it was nearly all she had left..He in fact encouraged her to do it. He knew God would bless her.

Edited October 19, 2018 by SettingDogStar

[Meerkat]

The blessings are real.  I tell anyone who will listen, if you want to see a miracle, pay your tithing.  President Nelson is absolutely right.  Tithing proves and strengthens our faith.  It is with that faith that we move our mountains.  Poverty can definitely be overcome by paying an honest tithe.

Prior to believing in Jesus Christ, I sold motorcycles at Nimitz Honda/Triumph/BMW in Hawaii.  I had good success.  The idea came to my mind that I could afford to give something to charity.  I called Mom in Tacoma and asked her if she knew a good charity.  She recommended the Tacoma Rescue Mission on Pacific Avenue.  The idea that ten percent was the right amount came to mind.  I began paying it.

The showroom had five sales people.  People would come in, walk past the others and tell me they had funds for a motorcycle.  What would I recommend.  My sales fluorished.  That was a direct blessing.

When I found the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, they believed in tithing.  They referred me to Malachi 3:10, which states: "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."  My experience proved the scripture true.

Tithing is an experiment that can be duplicated.  To disparage it is to shoot one's self in the foot.

[cinepro]

8 hours ago, Meerkat said:

 

Tithing is an experiment that can be duplicated.  To disparage it is to shoot one's self in the foot.

Interesting.  What is your measurable, falsifiable hypothesis for this experiment? 

I'll start you out: "If you pay your tithing, then _______________."

 

Edited October 21, 2018 by cinepro

[stemelbow]

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 4:37 AM, Meerkat said:

The blessings are real.  I tell anyone who will listen, if you want to see a miracle, pay your tithing.  

Years ago, when I was in college, single, working and going to school, I was asked to double my fast offerings, in a meeting.  Money was really tight, I could barely pay the bills.  I had a chat with my bishop and decided to make the commitment.  Then a week or so later, I got called to be in the EQ Presidency at my meeting with my Stake President, he asked me to double my fast offerings again.  I told him of my situation to clarify and he still challenged me to double it again.  So I did.  I was paying more for fast offerings then my rent, by that time, and every time I did the math to cover my bills and living expenses, including fast offerings and tithing, there was no way for me to pay for everything.  yet each month I came out without more debt getting added.  I said, "It's a miracle.  I was blessed beyond measure".  I picked up a second job in all of this, and my school focus suffered.  My roommate complained that I was eating all his food, and I was down to about 125 lbs.  I didn't pay for my books those couple of terms as I tried to just borrow other people's when I could.  And yet somehow I considered it all a miracle.  

if I didn't up my fast offering to what I did, then I wouldn't have had to eat my roommates food, I would have paid for my own books, I could have done much better in school, and I wouldn't have gotten too skinny to compete in basketball as I enjoyed.  Assigning the concept of "miracle" to the most mundane of things seems silly.  

At some point I realized every single blessing being thrown around as a result of paying tithing, or fast offerings as my example has it, was also happening to most other people I knew who weren't members, or who were and weren't paying their tithing.  Everything said to be a miracle was nothing of the sort.  

[Tacenda]

33 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Years ago, when I was in college, single, working and going to school, I was asked to double my fast offerings, in a meeting.  Money was really tight, I could barely pay the bills.  I had a chat with my bishop and decided to make the commitment.  Then a week or so later, I got called to be in the EQ Presidency at my meeting with my Stake President, he asked me to double my fast offerings again.  I told him of my situation to clarify and he still challenged me to double it again.  So I did.  I was paying more for fast offerings then my rent, by that time, and every time I did the math to cover my bills and living expenses, including fast offerings and tithing, there was no way for me to pay for everything.  yet each month I came out without more debt getting added.  I said, "It's a miracle.  I was blessed beyond measure".  I picked up a second job in all of this, and my school focus suffered.  My roommate complained that I was eating all his food, and I was down to about 125 lbs.  I didn't pay for my books those couple of terms as I tried to just borrow other people's when I could.  And yet somehow I considered it all a miracle.  

if I didn't up my fast offering to what I did, then I wouldn't have had to eat my roommates food, I would have paid for my own books, I could have done much better in school, and I wouldn't have gotten too skinny to compete in basketball as I enjoyed.  Assigning the concept of "miracle" to the most mundane of things seems silly.  

At some point I realized every single blessing being thrown around as a result of paying tithing, or fast offerings as my example has it, was also happening to most other people I knew who weren't members, or who were and weren't paying their tithing.  Everything said to be a miracle was nothing of the sort.  

This is going to come off really bad, but it gets me that leaders ask members to do this, yet where does that extra fast/tithe money go? Could it go to the Christmas program that is really extravagant held at the Conference Center? Or could the fast offering go to that family that buys everything under the son and then some bumps come up and can't pay their billls, but don't sell the toys? (true story)

Edited October 22, 2018 by Tacenda

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Years ago, when I was in college, single, working and going to school, I was asked to double my fast offerings, in a meeting.  Money was really tight, I could barely pay the bills.  I had a chat with my bishop and decided to make the commitment.  Then a week or so later, I got called to be in the EQ Presidency at my meeting with my Stake President, he asked me to double my fast offerings again.  I told him of my situation to clarify and he still challenged me to double it again.  So I did.  I was paying more for fast offerings then my rent, by that time, and every time I did the math to cover my bills and living expenses, including fast offerings and tithing, there was no way for me to pay for everything.  yet each month I came out without more debt getting added.  I said, "It's a miracle.  I was blessed beyond measure".  I picked up a second job in all of this, and my school focus suffered.  My roommate complained that I was eating all his food, and I was down to about 125 lbs.  I didn't pay for my books those couple of terms as I tried to just borrow other people's when I could.  And yet somehow I considered it all a miracle.  

if I didn't up my fast offering to what I did, then I wouldn't have had to eat my roommates food, I would have paid for my own books, I could have done much better in school, and I wouldn't have gotten too skinny to compete in basketball as I enjoyed.  Assigning the concept of "miracle" to the most mundane of things seems silly.  

At some point I realized every single blessing being thrown around as a result of paying tithing, or fast offerings as my example has it, was also happening to most other people I knew who weren't members, or who were and weren't paying their tithing.  Everything said to be a miracle was nothing of the sort.  

This.

The only change that I've noticed since I stopped paying tithing a year ago, is that I have 10% more money to figure out what to do with.

[mfbukowski]

On 6/3/2018 at 7:43 PM, Benjamin Seeker said:

I’ve seen the debate happening over at https://bycommonconsent.com/2018/06/02/tithing-and-coercion/ on whether the church’s stance on tithing is coercive. Let’s debate it (cause what else are we going to do?)!

I don’t feel that tithing can be judged or seen as coercive except in some circumstances. For example, when a dad has a faith crisis and comes away believing differently than before there can be a certain feeling of coercion. If there are strong family ties to Mormonism, and if he values his own ties to Mormonism, he may feel pressured or even coerced to pay tithing in order to fully participate in family events like the baptisms and ordinations and other rites of passage involving his children. 

Yet another reason to do away with cultural "Mormonism".

The problem is not the gospel, it is "Mormonism".

Edited October 22, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Meerkat]

21 hours ago, cinepro said:

Interesting.  What is your measurable, falsifiable hypothesis for this experiment? 

I'll start you out: "If you pay your tithing, then _______________."

 

God will open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
He will rebuke the devourer for your sake, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts. 

He's done this for me over many years.  Also, if you read my post just before the one you quoted, it explains how I first discovered the principle of tithing.  

I know many people who have proved the principle to their satisfaction and will tell you the same thing.  

I believe one important aspect of the test is the attitude with which one conducts it.  Paul's following statement mirrors my attitude and results:

"...He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
            7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
            8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work..." 2 Cor. 9

I believe it would be the same for anyone, especially the poor.  That is why President Nelson encourages those in poor countries to tithe.  It's not because God needs the money.  They need the blessings that will come.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

This is going to come off really bad, but it gets me that leaders ask members to do this, yet where does that extra fast/tithe money go? Could it go to the Christmas program that is really extravagant held at the Conference Center? Or could the fast offering go to that family that buys everything under the son and then some bumps come up and can't pay their billls, but don't sell the toys? (true story)

No, fast offerings are a completely different fund and accounting system.

There is some waste in tithing funds, PERHAPS, or in fast offerings PERHAPS, but the funds are not mixed.

[mfbukowski]

5 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

God will open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
He will rebuke the devourer for your sake, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts. 

He's done this for me over many years.  Also, if you read my post just before the one you quoted, it explains how I first discovered the principle of tithing.  

I know many people who have proved the principle to their satisfaction and will tell you the same thing.  

I believe one important aspect of the test is the attitude with which one conducts it.  Paul's following statement mirrors my attitude and results:

"...He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
            7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
            8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work..." 2 Cor. 9

I believe it would be the same for anyone, especially the poor.  That is why President Nelson encourages those in poor countries to tithe.  It's not because God needs the money.  They need the blessings that will come.

YES!!

It's a microcosm of the gospel itself.

If you don't SEE the benefits you are a fool to keep paying.

Alma 32.

Try it, if it doesn't work, stop knocking your head against the wall, waiting for it to stop hurting.

That is your objective evidence- it works or it doesn't.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

YES!!

It's a microcosm of the gospel itself.

If you don't SEE the benefits you are a fool to keep paying.

Alma 32.

Try it, if it doesn't work, stop knocking your head against the wall, waiting for it to stop hurting.

That is your objective evidence- it works or it doesn't.

I had been a full tithe payer for over 40 years. A few years ago right at the start of my unbelief, my in-laws went to each of their children and asked how they were doing financially. Everyone but my husband and I, had their house paid off. We didn't tell them that, but did say we were doing just fine. My husband likes the write off, and at the time had his own side business.

Then my in-laws told everyone they were donating a big portion of the inheritance to the church. Many years ago their good friends were killed in a small engine plane crash, which incidently they were suppose to be on but right before had to back out, and these friends were very wealthy. Well turns out their children fought over their parents money and several in their eyes went to pot, not literally though. They just turned to mush in their lives. Money was evil in their lives IOW.

So lo and behold my in-laws didn't want any of that to happen to us. All of our married life my husband and I struggled, he worked for his dad's and another man's company. He and his brothers had no idea their dad was not only a worker at the company but a silent partner. Then his dad told them he was a part owner (it was in the construction field), and whenever my husband or the other brothers wanted to start their own company or work for better pay elsewhere, their dad would tell them to stick with his company and they would get money later on.

So that is the reason my husband stopped paying tithing. He figured the money he was told he was going to get by staying at the company, now was with the church, so why pay tithing? And we've told our bishop this and therefore no bothering us to pay. In our old ward it was a constant a pressure the first time we wouldn't come to tithing settlement, until we told the whole story. We'll see what happens with the new ward's bishop coming up.

But we haven't felt any problem since not paying our tithing, in fact we are doing much better financially and spiritually, in fact. My knowledge of the church's wealth, causes me to think that not paying, sits well. Instead we are able to donate money to where it helps the most. We have donated to a variety of causes, friends that have children with cancer, money to go to a refugee camp my son and DIL helped in. And several other causes. I get excited that I can now donate much more to things outside of the church. I do still like to donate fast offerings though. And my daughter works for the church and she even says how rich the church is. She said she had the understanding that it is in the several billions. She works for their real estate arm. I always say that the church has so much money they could help the USA if it ever starts to topple financially. Which I firmly believe could happen.

[Scott Lloyd]

On 6/3/2018 at 8:43 PM, Benjamin Seeker said:

I’ve seen the debate happening over at https://bycommonconsent.com/2018/06/02/tithing-and-coercion/ on whether the church’s stance on tithing is coercive. Let’s debate it (cause what else are we going to do?)!

I don’t feel that tithing can be judged or seen as coercive except in some circumstances. For example, when a dad has a faith crisis and comes away believing differently than before there can be a certain feeling of coercion. If there are strong family ties to Mormonism, and if he values his own ties to Mormonism, he may feel pressured or even coerced to pay tithing in order to fully participate in family events like the baptisms and ordinations and other rites of passage involving his children. 

I believe that in such instances he ought to remember that it is he who has changed, not the rest of the family. There are consequences to any choice, and he should not expect the family — or the Church — to accommodate him just because he has had a change of heart. 

[nuclearfuels]

On 6/3/2018 at 10:43 PM, Benjamin Seeker said:

I’ve seen the debate happening over at https://bycommonconsent.com/2018/06/02/tithing-and-coercion/ on whether the church’s stance on tithing is coercive. Let’s debate it (cause what else are we going to do?)!

I don’t feel that tithing can be judged or seen as coercive except in some circumstances. For example, when a dad has a faith crisis and comes away believing differently than before there can be a certain feeling of coercion. If there are strong family ties to Mormonism, and if he values his own ties to Mormonism, he may feel pressured or even coerced to pay tithing in order to fully participate in family events like the baptisms and ordinations and other rites of passage involving his children. 

Coerced into increased prosperity and Temple attendance?

I'll take a double of that coercion.

My income increased 400% when I paid tithing more diligently at points in my life 10 years apart. 

[Ouagadougou]

On 6/3/2018 at 8:43 PM, Benjamin Seeker said:

I’ve seen the debate happening over at https://bycommonconsent.com/2018/06/02/tithing-and-coercion/ on whether the church’s stance on tithing is coercive. Let’s debate it (cause what else are we going to do?)!

I don’t feel that tithing can be judged or seen as coercive except in some circumstances. For example, when a dad has a faith crisis and comes away believing differently than before there can be a certain feeling of coercion. If there are strong family ties to Mormonism, and if he values his own ties to Mormonism, he may feel pressured or even coerced to pay tithing in order to fully participate in family events like the baptisms and ordinations and other rites of passage involving his children. 

I think it is coercive in some ways, especially if you consider the fact that "acceptable" tithing can only be paid to the LDS Church.  I could donate 10% of my income to a children's hospital, but the Lord apparently only accepts money paid to the LDS Church, not to other causes that help others and promote charity.  

[Meerkat]

33 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

I think it is coercive in some ways, especially if you consider the fact that "acceptable" tithing can only be paid to the LDS Church.  I could donate 10% of my income to a children's hospital, but the Lord apparently only accepts money paid to the LDS Church, not to other causes that help others and promote charity.  

When you have accepted membership in the Lord's church, yes, especially if you believe we are led by a prophet called by God to be his spokesman on earth.  Who would know better where and how to spend the Lord's consecrated funds?  I can tell you that, as a non Christian tithe payer prior to finding the Church, the Lord blessed my tithing according to the Malachi 3:10-11 promise.  That knowledge was part of my testimony of the Restored Church.  I do not feel coerced in any way, but blessed in many ways.

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Coerced into increased prosperity and Temple attendance?

I'll take a double of that coercion.

My income increased 400% when I paid tithing more diligently at points in my life 10 years apart. 

I was a good Catholic so I always put my 1 dollar in the plate and then I became a member of the COJCLDS.  Tithing?  You have to be kidding!

But I promised to do it because I loved everything else about the church and did have an amazing spiritual experience so who says that could not happen again?

I was slow getting started, probably not being a really "full" tithe payer, making excuses to myself and thinking things like "well that did not really count because......." and rationalizing.

Then I decided to go for it and really try it!  I was tremendously blessed and now have a firm testimony of tithing.

It doesn't work if you are fudging!  I love this church and after seeing what I have seen, there is no way I could leave unless something totally bizarre happened and I cannot even conceive what that could be.  It would not be about a prophet messing up, the only thing I can think of might be the reversal of some basic fundamental ways of describing what we call "doctrine".

But even then it would not be up to my decision- I would leave it to the Holy Ghost.

Heck the Holy Ghost got me into the church and He is the only one who could possibly get me out- precisely for that reason.  My Prime Directive is Follow the Holy Ghost WHEREVER He leads!

If you start violating what you know in your heart is right, THAT to me is the worst thing you can do.

[Rich Hansen]

9 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

This.

The only change that I've noticed since I stopped paying tithing a year ago, is that I have 10% more money to figure out what to do with.

Good news!  You actually have an increase of 11.11% over your previous net amount after accounting for the tithing you paid.  

[Meerkat]

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

It's a microcosm of the gospel itself.

I never thought of it that way, but you are right.  The opportunity and money come from God.  We distribute ten percent back with joy, and it brings more blessings and more joy.  I wonder if there's a relationship to this scripture in Matthew 13: "11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath."

[Bernard Gui]

On 10/21/2018 at 11:52 AM, cinepro said:

Interesting.  What is your measurable, falsifiable hypothesis for this experiment? 

I'll start you out: "If you pay your tithing, then _______________."

 

Try it with willing faith.

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

I think it is coercive in some ways, especially if you consider the fact that "acceptable" tithing can only be paid to the LDS Church.  I could donate 10% of my income to a children's hospital, but the Lord apparently only accepts money paid to the LDS Church, not to other causes that help others and promote charity. 

I have never felt coerced to pay tithing. Nothing is preventing us from giving above and beyond our 10% tithing to whatever charity we choose. It’s absurd to say the Lord only recognizes charitable money paid to the LDS Church. 

I prefer giving to fast offerings and a local homeless ministry because I know exactly where the money goes, and it’s not gobbled up in salaries, advertising, and administrative costs.

[thatjimguy]

On 6/4/2018 at 8:13 AM, hope_for_things said:

For me, the challenging thing is that there are many assumptions that church members and church leaders bring along with the tithing conversation.  Two key things that I would like to discuss.  

• God expects 10% of your annual income (Gross, Net or surplus) 
• God expects tithing to be paid to a specific institution 

Does God really care about the way people calculate what they can give?  Are there cosmic accountants in heaven keeping track to make sure everyone is paying the right amount?  Or should gifts and offerings be given freely and from the heart?  Doesn't the gospel talk about free will giving vs. people feeling obligated to give out of duty?  Which is better and how should we evaluate these things. 

Would God only honor gifts to specific organizations like the church?  Is giving to the church the only way to pay tithing?  What about giving to other causes and why wouldn't these be just as important of gifts and just as worthy to be considered tithes?  Is God more concerned about an institution receiving funds or the good that is done through those donations.  Are those heavenly accountants keeping track of which organizations people give money too, and do they have a list of approved organizations?  Can I get a copy of that list of approved ones?  

 

This is where you use the Holy Spirit for the answer. Ask him. If you walk away from prayer not feeling guilty and having revelation you are OK, you are OK. It's actually quite that simple.

Edited October 23, 2018 by thatjimguy

[hope_for_things]

4 hours ago, thatjimguy said:

 

This is where you use the Holy Spirit for the answer. Ask him. If you walk away from prayer not feeling guilty and having revelation you are OK, you are OK. It's actually quite that simple.

I largely agree that this would work just fine, and that it should be a personal and individual assessment, but unfortunately there are church leaders who wouldn't accept the various different ways people might feel they should pay their tithing.  And these leaders can withhold temple recommends and/or restrict privileges.  

[CV75]

8 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I largely agree that this would work just fine, and that it should be a personal and individual assessment, but unfortunately there are church leaders who wouldn't accept the various different ways people might feel they should pay their tithing.  And these leaders can withhold temple recommends and/or restrict privileges.  

Do you have some examples of church leaders that don't accept an affirmative response to the tithing question in the temple recommend interview? Or that have countermanded the following instruction: "The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, Mar. 19, 1970)."

[CV75]

On 6/3/2018 at 10:43 PM, Benjamin Seeker said:

I’ve seen the debate happening over at https://bycommonconsent.com/2018/06/02/tithing-and-coercion/ on whether the church’s stance on tithing is coercive. Let’s debate it (cause what else are we going to do?)!

I don’t feel that tithing can be judged or seen as coercive except in some circumstances. For example, when a dad has a faith crisis and comes away believing differently than before there can be a certain feeling of coercion. If there are strong family ties to Mormonism, and if he values his own ties to Mormonism, he may feel pressured or even coerced to pay tithing in order to fully participate in family events like the baptisms and ordinations and other rites of passage involving his children. 

Membership in an organization communicates to others personal consent to the terms of membership. Things that only feel coercive to a person who is unhappy with some aspect of his voluntary membership and personal religious practice cannot rightly be said to be coercive. If he refuses to pay tithe as a result of his misgivings, he is certainly not being coerced. If he chooses to pay it, it is because he finds some value to doing so.