The Church has $32 Billion in the Stock Market

[Exiled]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

Frankly, I don't give two red pennies on a cold day about this topic. I find it silly and an opportunity for the ignorant to yammer and complain.

However, if I was trying to build an organization to last forever I would strive to understand what my expenses would be annually and what they will be in the future.  I would plan for growth and how to financially handle those events.  I would then plan for all forms of emergency contingencies.  I would then develop a financial plan to invest funds in order to accommodate those plans.  What I would do is spend every penny I had today without any consideration for tomorrow, which seems to the be modus operandi for the vast majority of individuals today.

Lastly, please, do not try to dress your tirade as if it is a noble endeavor.  This is not about transparency - there is not "transparency" anywhere in the world.  It is not found in your personal lives; it is not found in corporations; nor is it found in city, state, or federal governments. I have long since tired of those who cannot look themselves in a mirror and tell the truth.  It is demonstrative of society so steeped in self-delusion that they have lost the desire for truth.  This yields a surplus of individuals desperate to be rebels and more desperate to find a cause.

We don't want to face the truth so we want the church to disclose its finances? How is wanting disclosure self-delusion? I just don't see it. 

[Storm Rider]

3 minutes ago, Exiled said:

We don't want to face the truth so we want the church to disclose its finances? How is wanting disclosure self-delusion? I just don't see it. 

Individuals dress their motives in noble words when the reality is far different.  Such an innocent - though screeching whine - all I want is for the church to disclose their finances.  Yeah, right.  We don't demand transparency of ourselves, quite the opposite we demand privacy.  We don't demand transparency from anything and nothing gives it to us.  Why the focus on the LDS Church?  What is the real motivation for this incessant whine about the Church and its finances?

That is the delusion - I just want honesty in the Church - yet the real reason is something different.  

Edited May 30, 2018 by Storm Rider

[FearlessFixxer]

52 minutes ago, provoman said:

 

How about a group vote to block your posting on this board? I normally would never suggest such a thing, but for you I am willing to suggest it. 

I suggest it because you do not engage in dialogue or discussion. Your posts are only to drive traffic to your website. If your contributions were more than drive posting to drive traffic to your website, my thoughts would be different.

that is not true.  I do engage.  Not super often, I am busy.  But I do engage

[JAHS]

2 hours ago, FearlessFixxer said:

Personally, It matters not to me how much the church has in the stock market, but I think their tithe payers have a right to know.

I really hate these "they have a right to know" demands, usually made by critics who don't know what most church members really want or care about knowing. 
Most of us don't care if we know or not.  I don't see anything wrong with making sound investments to help the money grow for future needs. 

[drums12]

11 hours ago, Analytics said:

Because taxpayers give the Church subsidies through various tax breaks, taxpayers have a reasonable expectation of transparency.

Tax breaks ARE NOT subsidies...I get so tired of this fallacy.  Letting an individual or organization keep its own property is not subsidizing  it.  

Edited May 31, 2018 by drums12

[Gray]

Just now, drums12 said:

Tax breaks ARE NOT subsidies...I get so tired of this fallacy.  Letting an individual or organization keep it's own property is not subsidizing  it.  

Rent breaks are a form of subsidies. Tax rates are functionally the same.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, The Mean Farmer said:

 

Yup, I stopped buying the generic brand of Doritos for youth activities long ago.   We can afford the good stuff!

If you guys were able to raise enough money to buy the real deal, well done!  But your funds ain't coming from the church for the most part.  Our boys are up at 6 Am on 8 holidays a year to put up flags and take them down in the evening to earn money for activities. 

The thing I love about the church is that they require the youth to raise their own funds, even though the church has more than enough to cover all activities.  It teaches them principles of self reliance and discourages the sense of entitlement. 

[strappinglad]

Don't there exist individuals whose net worth is over $ 32 Billion? For a corporation with about 15 million 'shareholders ' it's doing OK.

Let's see.... 10,000 buildings to be supplied with trash bags and paper towels and toilet paper and soap  and electricity and ... boy, I sure HOPE there are significant investments to help cover these costs.

[Gray]

46 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Because taxpayers give the Church subsidies through various tax breaks, taxpayers have a reasonable expectation of transparency.

Yes, but that should be decided through government channels. As the law stands now, the church has a right to its privacy, so long as it's operating within the law.

[pogi]

2 hours ago, FearlessFixxer said:

Personally, It matters not to me how much the church has in the stock market, but I think their tithe payers have a right to know.

So the church has 13 very successful companies...why do tithe payers have a right to know how much they are worth?  What does this have to do with our tithing money?

[Analytics]

9 minutes ago, drums12 said:

Tax breaks ARE NOT subsidies...I get so tired of this fallacy.  Letting an individual or organization keep it's own property is not subsidizing  it.  

Please edit the Wikipedia article on the topic to disabuse the readers of this fallacy.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, FearlessFixxer said:

https://mormonleaks.io/newsroom/2018/05/30/mormonleaks-compiles-information-connecting-mormon-church-to-32-billion-of-investments/

Before everyone jumps my bones and tries to tell me I am trying to make the church look bad....

This is about transparency.

This can be seen from a faithful perspective, a negative perspective, and a neutral perspective.

Personally, It matters not to me how much the church has in the stock market, but I think their tithe payers have a right to know.

 

Cheers
 

Thank you for presuming to speak for me as a tithpayer, but I’m doing fine without the help of apostates. 

[Analytics]

11 minutes ago, Gray said:

Yes, but that should be decided through government channels. As the law stands now, the church has a right to its privacy, so long as it's operating within the law.

There are a few different issues here. What does the law currently state? What should the laws be? And what are the ethical considerations above and beyond what the law actually says?

In a democracy, we should use our right of free speech to discuss these issues and not defer them to "government channels."

[bluebell]

53 minutes ago, Thinking said:

 

The disclaimer on the donation slip allows the Church to do whatever it wants with donations.

Even with this disclaimer there seems to be a need to proclaim that tithing funds weren't used for this or that. The existence of the disclaimer suggests that all the money is really just put into one big pot.

The fact that the church recently stopped members from being able to donate to two specific funds because they were 'full' seems to suggest that, though legally the church doesn't have to, they try very hard for money to go where the member designated it.

[provoman]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Thank you for presuming to speak for me as a tithpayer, but I’m doing fine without the help of apostates. 

And as though public fillings are not transparent. And notice the dog whistling of "tithe payer" dun dun duuuun

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

In the Church Finances thread you stated

So now you have me wondering why you are asking if the money in the stock market came from tithing. If what you said above is true, why do you ask?

I'm asking because Fearless seemed to imply that those who paid tithing had a right to know about the stock market money.  If no tithing money is involved in the stock market funds, then it would be hard for him to argue that tithe payers had some kind of right to know about the stock market money.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, provoman said:

One must wonder, if he really cares?

He made the argument that tithe payers had a right to know about the stock market money.  It seems like whether or not tithing was used is very very relevant to his argument for transparency.

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, Analytics said:

Because taxpayers give the Church subsidies through various tax breaks, taxpayers have a reasonable expectation of transparency.

The church obeys all government laws and regulations.  If taxpayers expectations are not being met it seems reasonable to seek remediation through the law. 

[LoudmouthMormon]

Yay!  A detailed spreadsheet on the leaks page!  I loves me some good spreadsheet. 

[data crunching noises]

Ok.  So, I'm hearing there's good reason to believe these 13 companies are owned by the church.  I am seeing dollar amounts on the value of these companies.  The implication is there is these companies handle money for only one entity - the church.  I'm not seeing evidence this is the case, just the implication.  It may or may not be correct. 

It's fun to see some of the companies these funds invest in.  Not fun as in interesting, but fun as in "people who freak out about such things will find lots of things to freak out about here".  Tech stocks like Apple and Facebook and Yahoo.  Haliburton. Monsanto.  WalMart.  Equifax and TransUnion.  Wells Fargo! (lol).   Lockheed Martin and Boeing.

The Cheesecake Factory - if it's good enough for the church to own stock in it, it must be good enough to eat at.

My employer.  Yay!  I work for a company invested in by my church!

Absolute hands-down favorite: Hasbro, makers of My Little Pony, and Lions Gate Entertainment, who did the recent My Little Pony movie.  That can only mean one thing:  In a few General Conferences, the church will announce the first missionaries in Equestria.

 

[provoman]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

He made the argument that tithe payers had a right to know about the stock market money.  It seems like whether or not tithing was used is very very relevant to his argument for transparency.

Yes I agree. But in my opinion and perspective this reveal is about sensationalism. And I believe that for journalistic integrity he should address the tithing aspect of the sensationalism, but I can only hold my breathe for 45seconds and I value oxygen.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Analytics said:

Yes. On May 22, the church disclosed in a press release that it has investment reserves consisting of stocks, bonds, and other assets. Addressing the question, "Where does the money for the Church’s reserves come from?", it said, "the vast majority of Church operations are funded through the sacred tithes and offerings given by members. The Church operates within its means and sets aside a portion of its funds each year." So yes, that constitutes evidence that a portion of the tithing it receives every year is invested in the stock market. 

Not really.   Not unless you ignore the "and offerings" part of that statement.  People donate entire estates to the church and have for over a century.  

If tithing is or was used, i don't care. I just think that if someone is going to use 'the tithe payers deserve to know!' as the reason to release private information, then they should be able to prove that tithing money is involved.

[drums12]

34 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Please edit the Wikipedia article on the topic to disabuse the readers of this fallacy.

 

I'll pass.  Please disabuse yourself of this fallacy.  https://mises.org/library/no-tax-breaks-are-not-subsidies

http://reason.com/archives/2011/05/17/the-difference-between-a-tax-b

 

Edited May 30, 2018 by drums12

[bluebell]

Just now, provoman said:

Yes I agree. But in my opinion and perspective this reveal is about sensationalism. And I believe that for journalistic integrity he should address the tithing aspect of the sensationalism, but I can only hold my breathe for 45seconds and I value oxygen.

That's impressive. I start to panic after 12.  

[Freedom]

3 hours ago, FearlessFixxer said:

https://mormonleaks.io/newsroom/2018/05/30/mormonleaks-compiles-information-connecting-mormon-church-to-32-billion-of-investments/

Before everyone jumps my bones and tries to tell me I am trying to make the church look bad....

This is about transparency.

This can be seen from a faithful perspective, a negative perspective, and a neutral perspective.

Personally, It matters not to me how much the church has in the stock market, but I think their tithe payers have a right to know.

 

Cheers
 

If not in the stock market then where the heck did you think they would be keeping it, under a mattress? Don't you invest your savings? It seem rather odd to me that you would even think this is a story. I would be rather more concerned if I found out the church kept the money in a non-interest savings account. From the moment I bought my first mutual fund it seemed clear to me that my tithing money would be invested until needed. Can you point to a single organization the size of the church that doe not do so?

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Analytics said:

Because taxpayers give the Church subsidies through various tax breaks, taxpayers have a reasonable expectation of transparency.

Did you take any tax deductions last year? If so, I suppose that as a taxpayer subsidizing you, I have the right to see your financials.