Different Degrees of Glory.

[changed]

8 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

We have a very small understanding of things beyond this mortal life.  However I do believe we had an almost perfect understand of things before we came to this earth.  We understood as spirits the purpose of life and the eternities and how things are done.  Nobody was forced to come here.  We all exercised our agency to come here knowing the struggles, rewards, and costs but we all came.  So I would suggest that though it may seem hard, unfair, ect, if you could remember everything that you forgot before you came, your perspective would instantly change.  How you believe things might be at this moment and how they really will be may not match very well. 

I do not think we chose to come here - at least it was not an informed choice... we understood the theoretical ideas of it, but had no actual experience, and without experience, we did not understand what we were getting into... I think this is why Adam and Eve had to transgress to have kids "were it not for our transgression..."  it is a transgression to trick a spirit into the world against their full understanding of things...  a better birth - not the fallen, cursed, painful birth - the better birth is that -have to be at least 8yo and accountable/experienced a bit sort of birth... just my opinion...

[changed]

11 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Not as husband and wife. Maybe I missed the memo. Where does it say they will be going home together ?

So in the other kingdoms, everyone will be isolated hermits?  What sort of bonds will exist in the lower kingdoms?  ... perhaps no polygammy?  The highest degree requires polygammy right?  That is something I can do without...

[changed]

11 hours ago, strappinglad said:

What is the purpose of order? I am going to present an analogy and stretch it some. Suppose you have 50 pairs of shoes of different colors and types and purpose. They are scattered willy- nilly on the bedroom floor. You wish to impose some order on the shoes so you pile them all on the bed. Well , you have cleared the floor.That's better but not much so you buy some of those special shoe holding hangers and put 2 shoes in each holder. You do it at random without concern for pairing at all. Better, but still chaotic. You go back to the closet and pair up the shoes properly. Much better. Now if there was a way to be able to choose a pair even in the dark. OCD is starting to kick in. Organize left to right, top to bottom, by style etc. Because I like them all equally, I don't order by preference.

Perhaps someone else would order the shoes differently?  

Like them all equally... that is the important part.

[changed]

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

That "perfect educational system" is provided in our doctrine in our belief in work for the dead.

We believe that when we awake in the spirit world, preaching about the afterlife will naturally be much easier than it is here.

So our doctrine covers that "problem".

 

 

I'm not sure it will be easier... How do you make amends, fix wrongs, without a physical body?  Seems you would have a full knowledge, but trapped as a spirit, unable to tangibly act on that knowledge - that is true hell, don't you think?

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, changed said:

I'm not sure it will be easier... How do you make amends, fix wrongs, without a physical body?  Seems you would have a full knowledge, but trapped as a spirit, unable to tangibly act on that knowledge - that is true hell, don't you think?

The Spirit can act on knowledge, why wouldn't we be able to?

we would make amends and fix wrongs in the same way as now to a great extent, we ask the Spirit to show us how, seek out the Lord's help, do that which he asks of us to help and trust the Lord with all our heart, mind, and spirit.

[changed]

36 minutes ago, Calm said:

The Spirit can act on knowledge, why wouldn't we be able to?

we would make amends and fix wrongs in the same way as now to a great extent, we ask the Spirit to show us how, seek out the Lord's help, do that which he asks of us to help and trust the Lord with all our heart, mind, and spirit.

 

A big part of the test is learning how to take care of and control our physical bodies - how can you prove you are through physical addictions, how can you demonstrate self-control if there is no physical body to control?  I think outer darkness is a place where spirits are not allowed bodies because they would use that physical body for ill - to move mountains or form planets - the first little bit of matter we are given control over is our own body - to see what we will do with it... without a physical body, I'm not sure you can learn how to control it.  

[Exiled]

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Well, yes, and then there was the infamous War in Heaven.  Is there any hope for some improvement beyond that?  Or do you see us all doomed to squabble forever?  Sounds more like Hell than heaven.

I guess we will find out some day. It just seems to me that if individuality is preserved, there will be some disagreements. Maybe where positive change happens is in the way disagreements are resolved? Perhaps eternal perspective brings about a calmer attitude to everyone and disputes are routinely worked out with celestial ease? In any event, I think it would be boring if we were all the same and had the same responses to everything. 

[SouthernMo]

One thing that I think we LDS need to free our minds from is the Hellenistic view of the afterlife that early and modern Christianity has embraced.  This view of perdition vs. salvation is completely separate from the doctrine of the degrees of glory.

Points of this have already been made - see @Robert F. Smith‘s posts.  God loves his children, and seems to make it pretty hard to have some type of eternal & everlasting punishment.

Viewing the degrees of glory as a revelation on man’s potential rather than a fixed judgement makes a lot more sense to me. Try reading D&C 76 with new eyes (no preconceived notions).

You may note (among other things) that while God names celestial, terrestrial, and telestial as “glories,” he does not call them kingdoms. Also, nowhere in this revelation does God say that those three are the only glories.  With this accuracy of reading, perhaps we can be inspired with new perspectives that make more sense.

The idea that there are only three kingdoms seems to be an idea that arose sometime after this revelation was given. The validity and accuracy of these subsequent teachings we should all individually determine.

As a side note, the general LDS teaching about outer darkness as being a place/state to which man is sent after judgement is dead wrong. Read Alma 40.  Verses 13-14 clearly state that souls remain in outer darkness until the resurrection.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, changed said:

So in the other kingdoms, everyone will be isolated hermits?  What sort of bonds will exist in the lower kingdoms?  ... perhaps no polygammy?  The highest degree requires polygammy right?  That is something I can do without...

The various kingdoms come with varying resurrected bodies.  While I don't expect biological eunuchs the law of those kingdoms would seem to prevent marital unions or increase.

We don't know how - physical law, biology, prohibition, lack of knowledge.  Who knows?  But something similar happened before.  Rembember how Eve described their condition prior to the fall.  And D&C 132 seems pretty clear.

I see no reason to doubt doctrinally that the blessings of the eternal family condition in the next life will be restricted to those who followed the applicable laws here.  Blessings are always contingent on following laws.

 

[RevTestament]

20 hours ago, changed said:

Some believe getting sealed in the temple will allow them to be with their family for eternity... for me, the temple has torn my family apart.  

Is it ok to strive to be a guardian angel rather than... ↑↑↑?   The imperfect people I know and love are all imperfect guardian angels (not temple-recommend carrying saints)...  It is just a small little flock up there, and I would be kidding myself to think I was strong enough for all of that.  The kinds of tests that are dished out on this earth, I would never do that to anyone.  I hate all of the divisions and hierarchies on earth - heaven is going to be divided too? I just don't understand how anyone could ever be happy or strive for a "heavenly" hierarchy?  It just does not sound like heaven to me... 

I know everyone is going to jump on the free-will bandwagon, but I don't know anyone who is not interested in being loved and giving love - in a perfect educational system everyone could be taught to attain the same level of joy - to me it is not about free will, it is about providing correct educational experiences to everyone.  

thoughts? comments?  

Does the Church teach everyone to attain a different level of joy? I believe the Church strives hard to teach everyone to do what is necessary to reach the top - even if it fails at this in my view. Yeshua did not teach everyone reaches the top by themselves. He taught that the gate leading to life was narrow, and few there be that find it. Why? Maybe because it does not involve looking above everyone else, but how to lift everyone else to want to attain it. There is a type of Mormonism I dislike - the type that says I won't let my kids play with yours because you smoke, drink, don't look right, or don't go to my Church. Another says, if you don't think like me, you must be of the devil.

The Lord does call us out of the world, but not to leave it. We are to try be examples or a light to draw others out of the world. But many do not strive for this. They try to insulate their lives from the world, and therefore appear to others like they think they are better than them - which is a turn off to investigators. 

I believe one of the ultimate teachings of God is that life is the teacher - not just the Church. We learn from our mistakes. We learn from our sins. That is the purpose of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God forbids it because He forbids all evil, but ironically, we cannot learn to be all we can be this way. Life can be a very potent teacher. One will not forget a scrape with Satan nor an encounter with God. It was necessary to send us here so we could learn to choose for ourselves and learn from our mistakes. This the Church really cannot teach. The Church does not teach the prodigal son to leave home, and waste his inheritance in profligate living, but is happy to see him return, and join the family again. Did the prodigal son learn anything valuable through his experience? That is not a "correct educational experience" the Church will teach - but I believe it to be an educational experience which has some value.

What I'm saying is if you have some family members who are prodigal children, do not judge them. Life can perhaps give them a more lasting lesson than the Church. From my experience what drives families apart is the drive or push to conform everybody to be perfect so they can live in the celestial kingdom together. Young people especially can tend to rebel against attempts to push them to conform. We had a son who sat at the same scripture readings and family meetings as the rest of our family, but who didn't have a testimony for himself. Rather than trying to force him to go to Church, we encouraged him, and told him to keep praying. The Molly Mormon in my wife worried and fretted over him. I felt the Lord would eventually make Himself known to him. The spirit did eventually manifest itself to him while he was giving a talk on the first vision - "like a freight train" he said. This gave him a desire to serve a mission, where he had more opportunities to plant the seed of faith, and experience its growth. Now my Molly Mormon wife could not be happier. Was I ever unhappy? No. I just did the same for him as I did for our other children. I felt trying to push him was the wrong move. I think Church members can really struggle with that. Many tend to fret and worry like my Molly Mormon wife.

Quote

I do not have a temple recommend over this.  I do not have a testimony that this system brings joy to everyone, or that this system binds families together.  

Do not worry about the moment. Let the moment take care of itself. Those who strive for others to have perfect life are trying to live their life for them - this never works. Be content with what the Lord has given you and your spouse, and any who wish to join.

19 hours ago, changed said:

Communication... It all started with the tower of babble - all the divisions...  so people are not correctly educated, things are not explained well, and this is the test?  Does not seem fair or just to test anyone over something they have not been properly educated with.  

Small groups vs. large groups, patriotism vs. nationalism - there is value in small groups, so long as the smaller groups do not hold themselves above others.  

Diversity is a good thing... united in one heart and one mind - I understand the beauty in seeing one another face to face, know as you are known, but to be carbon copies of one another?  we can't like different flavors of ice cream?  

 

     it is like converts have to choose between G-d and their own family   

Luke 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

There has always been somewhat of a rift between family members who believe, and those who don't. 

12 hours ago, changed said:

The biggest one:

Do you consider yourself worthy in every way to enter the temple and participate in temple ordinances?

I have failed a few tests,G-d showed me my limits by testing me beyond my strength, put me in my correct place - which was not the top tier... 

If your "failures" have to do with family members, then they are not your failures but theirs. We all fail tests of this life. Have no fear, we will get to repeat them. Those are not measures of cleanness nor righteousness. Are you repentant? Then you are clean of test failures. Then you are worthy to participate. Being worthy doesn't mean being perfect in every other way - or none would be worthy. Don't paint yourself with the Molly Mormon brush. My wife tends to do that, and sometimes has not partaken of the sacrament because of that. Yet, she is probably far more perfect than me. She has always struggled with trying to be perfect - that struggle can take a mental toll on one. I am satisfied to know that I tried.  Failure is an option. Christ failed to lead everyone to Himself, yet He did not fail in His mission. Did He beat Himself up because not all would join His family? Do not judge by worldly eyes of all going to the temple. Life in the spirit world is typically much longer than here.  

[RevTestament]

3 hours ago, changed said:

So in the other kingdoms, everyone will be isolated hermits?  What sort of bonds will exist in the lower kingdoms?  ... perhaps no polygammy?  The highest degree requires polygammy right?  That is something I can do without...

I think the Church still struggles to disabuse itself of this notion. There is not a single scripture to support the idea that temporal polygamy is "required" and actually, some in the Church leadership have said it is not. I testify it is not. It is no more than an ensample of the order of heaven, but even as I say this I'm sure some feel I blaspheme, so I guess you may just have to be content that there are some in the Church who feel like you.

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

One thing that I think we LDS need to free our minds from is the Hellenistic view of the afterlife that early and modern Christianity has embraced.  This view of perdition vs. salvation is completely separate from the doctrine of the degrees of glory.

I don't think it is a "Hellenisstic view" to believe in heaven and hell. The problem is that the Hellenistic view mixes the time up because they view visits to hell as eternal in time, when it is really eternal in scope for most. If the afterlife is applied to life in the spirit world. then the orthodox view is close to correct. Spirits who are not saved in Christ go to hell to serve their punishment, while those who die in a saved state go to paradise to await resurrection. The difference is LDS believe those in hell can be saved. They can repent, and accept ordinances on their behalf, and as Yeshua Himself said, they can believe on His words and live.John 5:25  I think even many LDS think of hell/spirit prison as a permanent place. Yet, Yeshua will save most from there to the terrestrial or telestial kingdoms.

Quote

Viewing the degrees of glory as a revelation on man’s potential rather than a fixed judgement makes a lot more sense to me. Try reading D&C 76 with new eyes (no preconceived notions).

You may note (among other things) that while God names celestial, terrestrial, and telestial as “glories,” he does not call them kingdoms. Also, nowhere in this revelation does God say that those three are the only glories.  With this accuracy of reading, perhaps we can be inspired with new perspectives that make more sense.

The idea that there are only three kingdoms seems to be an idea that arose sometime after this revelation was given. The validity and accuracy of these subsequent teachings we should all individually determine.

As a side note, the general LDS teaching about outer darkness as being a place/state to which man is sent after judgement is dead wrong. Read Alma 40.  Verses 13-14 clearly state that souls remain in outer darkness until the resurrection.

The degrees of glory do not have to do with "the afterlife." They have to do with life with God after salvation. I think there are those who confuse them with the afterlife in the spirit world. Outer darkness or hell, can be permanent. Those who do not repent even by the time of the last judgment are banished there in a state of permanency. Those will probably be some of the third who never go to the next earth either - except as angels of Satan. But, you make a good point in bringing this up. I find most LDS to be surprisingly somewhat confused about the afterlife, heaven, and hell. 

[changed]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

If your "failures" have to do with family members, then they are not your failures but theirs. We all fail tests of this life. Have no fear, we will get to repeat them. Those are not measures of cleanness nor righteousness. Are you repentant? Then you are clean of test failures. Then you are worthy to participate. Being worthy doesn't mean being perfect in every other way - or none would be worthy. Don't paint yourself with the Molly Mormon brush. My wife tends to do that, and sometimes has not partaken of the sacrament because of that. Yet, she is probably far more perfect than me. She has always struggled with trying to be perfect - that struggle can take a mental toll on one. I am satisfied to know that I tried.  Failure is an option. Christ failed to lead everyone to Himself, yet He did not fail in His mission. Did He beat Himself up because not all would join His family? Do not judge by worldly eyes of all going to the temple. Life in the spirit world is typically much longer than here.  

 

My failures have to do with others.. I am still not sure how I was supposed to react?  Before I was a member (almost was not able to be baptized over this one)  I was in a bad relationship filled with drugs etc. that ended in an abortion... killing your own kid? not the best way to react.  This new mess I am in - dealing with a few high priests, and it is more than porn addiction - one is now in jail, my own kids were victims of a member of the bishopric - someone who was supposed to be called of g-d video-taped what he did to them, and quite a few other kids over years and years - and this went on for years with no one stopping it, calling after calling -  so I went postal, again... it opened old wounds for me.  I thought the church was safe, and now it does not feel safe to me anymore, and I don't know what to do with the Judas' apostles that are in the midst... not just one bad apple, I am sealed to someone who has a porn problem - my blessing commands me to keep my covenants with him (very specific on that account)... I am not a molly mormon, I'm used trash by this time around... everyone in this sort of thing has their own abuse story, of how their addiction started - I won't go through the whole mess, this round #3 between me and my spouse?  when in Rome... I've been sucked into some dark places with him... someone once told me "a kiss is just a kiss, a *** is just a ****"  and that mindset has saved me from insanity - its just nature, it is nothing at all... I've thrown up the flag of surrender, I don't want any more tests, I will accept my failure - still don't know what the hell I am supposed to do, I just know I am not strong enough to handle what is dished out on this planet... and I know my story is not the worst of them.  There are 64 million refugees on the move right now, horrors going on beyond imagination - what is anyone supposed to learn from this kind of stuff?  this does not refine, it grinds you to dust, destroys you, hardens your heart and just makes you angry and unfeeling towards everyone.  

There are those who are "chosen", and protected, and guided by the spirit... and then there are the rest of us, who are not chosen, who are not protected, who live with pain night after night, year after year - and that is just life... karma?  we did something horrible in the pre-existence?  whatever it is, it is what it is, and I know I am not favored by G-d, and I am not wanted in the celestial kingdom... I bring my kids to church so they can have something a little stable (with the understanding that not everyone who is a high priest is trusted, and they are never to be in a PPI alone, and are not to trust anyone, even in the church)... they still need friends, for whoever still allows them to join their groups... 

honestly?  life is hell... I disagree with G-d and the tests he dishes out.  I don't want to spend eternity with a G-d like that, or follow in the footsteps of a G-d like that.

Edited May 29, 2018 by changed

[RevTestament]

54 minutes ago, changed said:

My failures have to do with others.. I am still not sure how I was supposed to react?  Before I was a member (almost was not able to be baptized over this one)  I was in a bad relationship filled with drugs etc. that ended in an abortion... killing your own kid? not the best way to react.  This new mess I am in - dealing with a few high priests, and it is more than porn addiction - one is now in jail, my own kids were victims of a member of the bishopric - someone who was supposed to be called of g-d video-taped what he did to them, and quite a few other kids over years and years - and this went on for years with no one stopping it, calling after calling -  so I went postal, again... it opened old wounds for me.  I thought the church was safe, and now it does not feel safe to me anymore, and I don't know what to do with the Judas' apostles that are in the midst... not just one bad apple, I am sealed to someone who has a porn problem - my blessing commands me to keep my covenants with him (very specific on that account)... I am not a molly mormon, I'm used trash by this time around... everyone in this sort of thing has their own abuse story, of how their addiction started - I won't go through the whole mess, this round #3 between me and my spouse?  when in Rome... I've been sucked into some dark places with him... someone once told me "a kiss is just a kiss, a *** is just a ****"  and that mindset has saved me from insanity - its just nature, it is nothing at all... I've thrown up the flag of surrender, I don't want any more tests, I will accept my failure - still don't know what the hell I am supposed to do, I just know I am not strong enough to handle what is dished out on this planet... and I know my story is not the worst of them.  There are 64 million refugees on the move right now, horrors going on beyond imagination - what is anyone supposed to learn from this kind of stuff?  this does not refine, it grinds you to dust, destroys you, hardens your heart and just makes you angry and unfeeling towards everyone.  

There are those who are "chosen", and protected, and guided by the spirit... and then there are the rest of us, who are not chosen, who are not protected, who live with pain night after night, year after year - and that is just life... karma?  we did something horrible in the pre-existence?  whatever it is, it is what it is, and I know I am not favored by G-d, and I am not wanted in the celestial kingdom... I bring my kids to church so they can have something a little stable (with the understanding that not everyone who is a high priest is trusted, and they are never to be in a PPI alone, and are not to trust anyone, even in the church)... they still need friends, for whoever still allows them to join their groups... 

honestly?  life is hell... I disagree with G-d and the tests he dishes out.  I don't want to spend eternity with a G-d like that, or follow in the footsteps of a G-d like that.

My sympathies, and let me say I can relate. I have had to endure things I do not care to repeat. If I knew what they entailed before I experienced them, I think it safe to say I may not care to repeat them in order to get to where I am. In some ways I think I am still experiencing such things. I do not always care for what God seems to have planned for me. They certainly do not seem to correspond to the Church's interpretation of things. If I tithe I am supposed to be blessed - yet, it seems everyone gets financially blessed except me. But, perhaps I just have to learn that God does not want me to build up things in this life. I have never starved, or been homeless so he does seem to have at least not tested me there. I have not been sent to a country where the people live in cardboard shacks or grass huts with dirt floors and without running water. Am I "chosen"? I guess the world will see, but let me assure you that did not involve a carefree life of ease. I now live in "Happy Valley" where so many LDS families seem to have all they could want, and seem to live perfect and happy lives. How does God test anyone in such an environment? I feel I am viewed as someone who must not being doing things right. I must not be paying all my tithing or something, or God would bless me. So just a note to you that I am speaking from a place of sympathy and empathy for you. 

My wife has also been through things similar to what you express. Some sex related things from Church members with high callings who continued to get called. Although one did not directly involve her, the Church did not listen to the woman who spoke up against this person's calling. So this was a second example to her that the Church did not seem to have true inspiration in the callings of its leaders. From there she surmised if the Church leaders are not inspired, then the Church must not be true. She went through a lot of anger and resentment. So, I can understand that she would not wish to repeat any of that either. I am not saying what she experienced were purposeful tests from God, but I believe we do agree to come here and become subject to the bad and the good. Some of it is very bad, and some is very good. If it were all very good, I don't see the point in God putting us here - just keep us up in heaven.

You are loved by one who suffered hate and the seemingly senseless death at the hands of those who feared and hated Him - for what? For speaking the truth. He was hated for being true. It seems no one could have more cause to disagree with God than Him. God allowed the early Church to be persecuted and hated. God does not stop the world from pandering to Satan. Satan will be bound not because God will do it, but because man will finally learn how to stop allowing him to gain influence over them. Until then followers will experience some pretty nasty things at the hands of brothers in Satan's grasp. As you have learned, LDS are not immune to Satan's wiles. We have more learning to do as well. Be grateful that life has not dished you as nasty as things as many others have experienced. Be satisfied to be that light of hope to others who can see if you can make it, they can too. Christ did. so that you can. And I believe God Himself did too. See Gen 3:22. I have known His love and mercy, but that doesn't mean His way was easy. I was thrust back out into the lone and dreary world. Feeling like God should stop the world from being lone and dreary just makes one bitter at Him. We agreed to come here. We agreed to try to help mankind learn to become better - to overcome Satan.

[Eek!]

4 hours ago, changed said:

life is hell... I disagree with G-d and the tests he dishes out.  I don't want to spend eternity with a G-d like that, or follow in the footsteps of a G-d like that.

Within the limitations inevitably imposed by my experiences being different from yours, I think I understand how you feel.  I spent most of my life secretly believing that God was my enemy, and once I recognized that was one of my core beliefs, I waged my own little war against him.   I didn't actually deliberately hurt anyone else as part of my war (though I'm sure others were affected), but let's just say I let him know how I felt.  There was murder in my heart. 

Without going through the details, at some point I had to admit that the paradigm of "God is my enemy and by golly it's mutual" wasn't very fulfilling.  So I tested out a few other paradigms, and found one that works better for me.  It goes something like this:  "God is good, God is fair, and God is no respecter of persons, and any line of thinking that leads to a different conclusion has a mistake in it somewhere."

I have lived with that paradigm for a while now, and it has replaced the old one among my core beliefs.  I accept it as a correct principle.  And whenever I run into a discrepancy between this principle and a religious teaching, the principle wins. 

Now that I had a new lense, I looked at some of the words and actions of Jesus through it.  Here's one:  "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."  Jesus said that about the people who were crucifying them.  Did those guys get a freebie, did they win the lottery and get a divine pardon, because they just happened to be there and Jesus wanted to go out looking like the good guy?   Nope.  If God is good, and God is fair, and God is no respecter of persons, then the same forgiveness and the same justification for it applies to every single one of us.  What was that justification?  "They know not what they do."  In other words, they (and we) are mistaken.  

So if you want to, let's give this new idea a trial run. 

Think of the worst thing you ever did.  Don't tell me what it is.  Didn't you think it would somehow make you happy?  Maybe you even thought that it would make you feel more loved.  Obviously that did not work out.  So in other words, you were merely (but severely) mistaken about what would make you happy.  What is the proper response to someone who makes a mistake?  Is it eternal condemnation?  No, the correct response to someone who has made a mistake is correction, and no condemnation is called for. 

In other words, the worst thing you ever did was a mistake.  You were mistaken about what would make you happy.  Correction is called for, but there is no condemnation from God.   (This same line of thinking applies to the second-worst thing you did, and so on.  And it also applies to everyone else.)

Now, what about the consequences of your incorrect choice?   Perhaps there was what looks like enormous loss to yourself or to someone else, and you cannot possibly make it up.  Well, healing all of the consequences of our incorrect choices is not our job.  It is God's job, it's part of the Atonement.  So in the long run (and anything less than that is an incorrect perspective) nobody gets cheated.  I'm willing to give God the benefit of the doubt on healing that I cannot see from where I now stand, based on the principle that God is good, God is fair, and God is no respecter of persons.  It would be unfair for someone else to truly be cheated because of my mistakes. 

Now as for what this world is all about, let me introduce you to something implied by the aforementioned core belief:  "God has our best interests at heart."  So this world is not a cruel test, wherein God keeps score so he can justify judging and condemning us.   Rather, it is a school, a place optimized for learning, with the specific lessons tailored to each student.  (Imo it's probably just one of many schools, and is probably the "school of relationships".)  This can only be a safe school if our souls are not at stake, so consider this:  A loving Father would not place before his children deadly poison disguised as candy (and any line of thinking that tells you otherwise has a mistake in it).   Also, this can only be a safe school if all injustices are temporary.  But only if God is not good and God is not fair could injustices be anything other than temporary.   

Here is an imperfect analogy for earth-as-a-school: 

Imagine you are playing a video game, a very realistic and engrossing and highly educational video game.  You are so drawn into your character that you have forgotten who you are.  When your character is hurt or wronged, you think that YOU are hurt or wronged.  When she is in peril, you think that YOU are in peril.  If she dies, you think that YOU will die.  But the truth is, you are not your video game character.  You have been perfectly safe and perfectly loved all along. 

Which brings us to one final implication of that core belief:  "You are perfectly safe and perfectly loved."  Regardless of how convincing all illusions to the contrary may be.  There is nothing you could ever do that would lessen God's love for you, nor ever make him even think of giving up on you.  Your only true home is with him, and he will not leave his children homeless. 

You might try this different paradigm on for size.  Give it a fair chance.  See if it bears good fruit or bad fruit.  All I can say is that it has worked for me, but I do not take that to mean it will be part of the solution for anyone else.  Imo not everyone has signed up for the same classes. 

Edited May 29, 2018 by Eek!

[Maidservant]

On 5/28/2018 at 11:42 AM, changed said:

 

Some believe getting sealed in the temple will allow them to be with their family for eternity... for me, the temple has torn my family apart.  

Is it ok to strive to be a guardian angel rather than... ↑↑↑?   The imperfect people I know and love are all imperfect guardian angels (not temple-recommend carrying saints)...  It is just a small little flock up there, and I would be kidding myself to think I was strong enough for all of that.  The kinds of tests that are dished out on this earth, I would never do that to anyone.  I hate all of the divisions and hierarchies on earth - heaven is going to be divided too? I just don't understand how anyone could ever be happy or strive for a "heavenly" hierarchy?  It just does not sound like heaven to me... 

I know everyone is going to jump on the free-will bandwagon, but I don't know anyone who is not interested in being loved and giving love - in a perfect educational system everyone could be taught to attain the same level of joy - to me it is not about free will, it is about providing correct educational experiences to everyone.  

thoughts? comments?  

I do not have a temple recommend over this.  I do not have a testimony that this system brings joy to everyone, or that this system binds families together.  

It's funny because I actually stared myself in the face last night, in my journal, and was honest about some actual feelings I was having (not conclusions of doctrine yet, but not hiding the feelings anymore).  But basically it is that I have no particular desire to spend eternity with any of my family members, either from childhood or now.  Especially childhood.  My children, I do, but they are all leaving me anyway; and we'll all be adults in eternity anyway.  It's not like we are going to have dinner together every night in eternity.  So even if we like each other, we're all still gone from each other.  Eternity is pretty wide.

I am not sealed to my biological father.  Many of my siblings don't do the Church.  But they are always going to be my family members.  It's not like I'm going to forget about them.  I also am much closer to some friends than to blood family.

I'm just offering this so you know that many of us have struggles with this kind of thing for various reasons.  I have come to many conclusions and found much beauty in what I contemplate for my future in this life and beyond it.  I don't rely on a temple ceremony for it, though.

Having said that, I do feel that my covenants, including sealings, are operating in real time to give me power to live in this life.  I rely upon and draw upon that sealing power constantly.  So I know what I experience on that level, even if I don't really have an explanation for everything yet in terms of eternity.

 

On 5/28/2018 at 12:14 PM, Eek! said:

Heaven isn't Heaven unless we're all there.

I've thought this for a long time, and it's cool to see it from another mind (heart).  I say it this way:  My heaven includes all of you.

[theplains]

On 5/29/2018 at 1:39 PM, changed said:

honestly?  life is hell... I disagree with G-d and the tests he dishes out.  I don't want to spend eternity with a G-d like that, or follow in the footsteps of a G-d like that.

Do you attribute any negative/evil/bad things which happen to people to acts of the devil or does your blame always
fall on God?

Thanks,
Jim

[california boy]

On 5/29/2018 at 5:49 AM, carbon dioxide said:

We have a very small understanding of things beyond this mortal life.  However I do believe we had an almost perfect understand of things before we came to this earth.  We understood as spirits the purpose of life and the eternities and how things are done.  Nobody was forced to come here.  We all exercised our agency to come here knowing the struggles, rewards, and costs but we all came.  So I would suggest that though it may seem hard, unfair, ect, if you could remember everything that you forgot before you came, your perspective would instantly change.  How you believe things might be at this moment and how they really will be may not match very well. 

Really?  Can you explain what kind of war was fought?  And more important, how did you become more valiant and noble and great?  Were they just a better debater?  

[california boy]

On 5/29/2018 at 2:44 PM, changed said:

Perhaps someone else would order the shoes differently?  

Like them all equally... that is the important part.

They should obviously be arranged by color starting with warm colors and going to cool colors.  What is he thinking?

[california boy]

On 5/29/2018 at 7:39 PM, changed said:

 

My failures have to do with others.. I am still not sure how I was supposed to react?  Before I was a member (almost was not able to be baptized over this one)  I was in a bad relationship filled with drugs etc. that ended in an abortion... killing your own kid? not the best way to react.  This new mess I am in - dealing with a few high priests, and it is more than porn addiction - one is now in jail, my own kids were victims of a member of the bishopric - someone who was supposed to be called of g-d video-taped what he did to them, and quite a few other kids over years and years - and this went on for years with no one stopping it, calling after calling -  so I went postal, again... it opened old wounds for me.  I thought the church was safe, and now it does not feel safe to me anymore, and I don't know what to do with the Judas' apostles that are in the midst... not just one bad apple, I am sealed to someone who has a porn problem - my blessing commands me to keep my covenants with him (very specific on that account)... I am not a molly mormon, I'm used trash by this time around... everyone in this sort of thing has their own abuse story, of how their addiction started - I won't go through the whole mess, this round #3 between me and my spouse?  when in Rome... I've been sucked into some dark places with him... someone once told me "a kiss is just a kiss, a *** is just a ****"  and that mindset has saved me from insanity - its just nature, it is nothing at all... I've thrown up the flag of surrender, I don't want any more tests, I will accept my failure - still don't know what the hell I am supposed to do, I just know I am not strong enough to handle what is dished out on this planet... and I know my story is not the worst of them.  There are 64 million refugees on the move right now, horrors going on beyond imagination - what is anyone supposed to learn from this kind of stuff?  this does not refine, it grinds you to dust, destroys you, hardens your heart and just makes you angry and unfeeling towards everyone.  

There are those who are "chosen", and protected, and guided by the spirit... and then there are the rest of us, who are not chosen, who are not protected, who live with pain night after night, year after year - and that is just life... karma?  we did something horrible in the pre-existence?  whatever it is, it is what it is, and I know I am not favored by G-d, and I am not wanted in the celestial kingdom... I bring my kids to church so they can have something a little stable (with the understanding that not everyone who is a high priest is trusted, and they are never to be in a PPI alone, and are not to trust anyone, even in the church)... they still need friends, for whoever still allows them to join their groups... 

honestly?  life is hell... I disagree with G-d and the tests he dishes out.  I don't want to spend eternity with a G-d like that, or follow in the footsteps of a G-d like that.

I just wish I could give you a big hug and help you bear part of your burden.   Life isn't always easy.  But for me, things did get better.  I am playing the long game.  I hope you will too.

[changed]

8 hours ago, theplains said:

Do you attribute any negative/evil/bad things which happen to people to acts of the devil or does your blame always
fall on God?

Thanks,
Jim

 

Sins of Commission vs Sins of Omission...

what am I supposed to think here?  "He will send blessings; He will send blessings. Words of a prophet: Keep the commandments..."???  How did 11 of the original 12 apostles die?  They were not blessed for following the Savior.   Experiment on the words?  What exactly is supposed to be the result of the experiment?  and if it does not turn out so well - if the result of the experiment is being molested?  what do you do with that result?

Edited June 10, 2018 by changed

[changed]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

I just wish I could give you a big hug and help you bear part of your burden.   Life isn't always easy.  But for me, things did get better.  I am playing the long game.  I hope you will too.

 

so.... years from now if I am not angry at g-d anymore, ...

haha, I should start a poll, how many here think g-d would take the likes of me back?  

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold....

It does not refine - these trials - they kill you.  

Edited June 10, 2018 by changed

[provoman]

On 5/28/2018 at 12:58 PM, Exiled said:

To me, it didn't make much sense having the entire family together in the first place.  Kids grow up, leave the nest and go out on their own with their own families.  Maybe together forever means having celestial holidays together?  I wonder if at celestial thanksgiving, there will be fights over celestial kingdom elections like there were re Trump v. Clinton?  I hear there is a contentious election going on right now up there over the LGTB issue.  Some are for letting them into the celestial kingdom (they point to spiritual biology and fairness) and some are against as it being a violation of tradition and what Elohim intended.  Although there is some speculation as to what Elohim really meant.  He has a hard time communicating his word up there as he does down here at times.

Kids grow and leave home, go theirbown with their own families....Isn't that a Western practice, whereas others are likely to keep generations living together or close proximity?

[carbon dioxide]

On 5/28/2018 at 12:42 PM, changed said:

Is it ok to strive to be a guardian angel rather than... ↑↑↑?   The imperfect people I know and love are all imperfect guardian angels (not temple-recommend carrying saints)...  It is just a small little flock up there, and I would be kidding myself to think I was strong enough for all of that.  The kinds of tests that are dished out on this earth, I would never do that to anyone.  I hate all of the divisions and hierarchies on earth - heaven is going to be divided too? I just don't understand how anyone could ever be happy or strive for a "heavenly" hierarchy?  It just does not sound like heaven to me...

Is it ok to strive to be an angel?  Sure if that is what you aspire to be.  Just as it is ok for a family member to be a school teacher and not a medical doctor.  Be what you want to be.  That really is the beauty of the different degrees of glory.  We all get want we really want and deserve.  Especially if we know ahead of time what is what and what is required.   A man can not complain he was not allowed to go to medical school knowing ahead of time that hard work in undergraduate classes was required and good grades are needed.  One can not just blow off college courses, get bad grades, do horrible on tests and then apply to medical school and expect to get in.  Thankfully to obtain celestial glory is not nearly as hard as to get into medical school.  There is no limited application pool or spots.  There is no tests of knowledge and only the smarter ones get in.  The dumbest people can make celestial glory.  All they have to do is apply (repent and be baptized) and get past the interviews (keep the commandments and things like so they pass judgement) and they will get in.   Those that did not get a shot at understanding the full plan get their shot in the spirit world.   I think everything is fair and just.  God sends nobody to a lower kingdom.  We send ourselves in the end by our own choices. 

[mfbukowski]

On 5/29/2018 at 5:46 AM, changed said:

I'm not sure it will be easier... How do you make amends, fix wrongs, without a physical body?  Seems you would have a full knowledge, but trapped as a spirit, unable to tangibly act on that knowledge - that is true hell, don't you think?

No, think it through. I said "PREACHING" which does not require a body.

We're not talking about playing basketball here just learning and talking to people.

And then we are resurrected. Then we have a body. The rest of our progression can continue after that.