Pres. Nelson and alcoholic lawyer lady

[Calm]

I don't know if Serbia was anything like Russia outside of being Eastern European, but when we were in Russia, the women were treated abominably by the male coworkers.  The whole women are equal in a communist country was a huge farce and a few years post communism wasn't improving from what I saw and heard.  Female professors with doctorates were treated like secretaries.  Sexual harassment---pretty constant---occurred even if married, but possibly more if single. One friend's husband had a huge problem with her being the better wage earner in the family and pretty much went out drinking with his buddies with her money every night and she said this was just to be expected.  Several professional women were divorced that we met because of that kind of mistreatment and what generally comes with a husband rarely sober and wanting to prove his masculinity in a society that was already abusive to its people in many ways (corruption rampant for one thing).  So there were both positives and negatives to being a single professional woman that I saw.

It was definitely different in terms of what was meant by male dominanated to US and Canada.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Calm

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Then perhaps you are selectively believing.  In another thread all kinds of suspicions are being expressed over the timing of the NAACP/LDS meeting and announcement.  

.  

I've heard or read this story before, and back then I liked how they weren't judgemental too.

[RevTestament]

6 hours ago, Duncan said:

it sounds like she was "given to drink" to me it sounds like she was more than a social drinker

No worries. I think that is a conclusion. I don't think he knew her drinking habits. Most Europeans are social drinkers. To call them alcoholics because they have gotten drunk a few times is not warranted IMHO. That's all I'm saying. She had a bad week, and probably costed herself or her firm thousands of dollars in losses. I believe that is what Elder Nelson was referring to. I think Elder Nelson is saying getting a little inebriated in those circumstances doesn't mean she was an alcoholic or should be condemned. So he wasn't being judgmental. Good for him.

[readstoomuch]

It’s a beautiful story and it’s hard to find fault with it.  My now honed politically correct ears could sense what people might say.  Fortunately I went to college and graduate school most of the 80s so I remember what people used to say in the US and this story is from Eastern Europe.   Our society now often finds others offenders for a word.

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, smac97 said:

..................................  It's no business of ours to adjudicate or guess at such things..........

Nonetheless, it is very heartening to know of Pres Nelson's kind reaction to this young woman's possible weakness.  All of us can take a lesson in ministry from that.

[CMZ]

10 hours ago, RevTestament said:

The proscription against drinking has become very strong in the Church. Somewhere along the line something that was expressly NOT given by way of commandment became "a commandment." Yet I have never really seen where. If you want a temple recommend, you are admonished to follow the word of wisdom, but that still is not a commandment. It seems to me that the Mormon cultural norm has grown so strong so as to make one talk about drinking alcohol like it is a sin. See Smac's comment above: 

This is so much so, that Duncan entitled this thread with "alcoholic lawyer." One instance of inebriation hardly qualifies someone as an alcoholic. Alcoholics have a habit they cannot break - they generally are physically addicted to alcohol. I have been inebriated before, but I was far from an alcoholic. 

I'm sure I will get smacked upside the head with my comments, but I think the push to cause everyone to conform can sometimes come across as a holier than thou attitude, which turns others off. IMHO, the woman did not sin. She succumbed to a weakness which hopefully did not become a habit.

It became a "commandment" when Heber J. Grant made it a temple recommend question. But, yes, Mormons have taken the Word of Wisdom to mean that the entire world has been commanded not to drink alcohol. Now, I'm not saying people should drink alcohol (I'd kind of prefer they didn't) but the Word of Wisdom was given to members and we shouldn't act like non-members are guilty of breaking a rule that they generally don't even know about. Fortunately the smell of alcohol does not give me any temptation to drink it.

[RevTestament]

17 minutes ago, CMZ said:

It became a "commandment" when Heber J. Grant made it a temple recommend question. But, yes, Mormons have taken the Word of Wisdom to mean that the entire world has been commanded not to drink alcohol. Now, I'm not saying people should drink alcohol (I'd kind of prefer they didn't) but the Word of Wisdom was given to members and we shouldn't act like non-members are guilty of breaking a rule that they generally don't even know about. Fortunately the smell of alcohol does not give me any temptation to drink it.

Well, that depends. Long Island Ice Teas for instance are a wonderful smelling and tasting drink, as are many mixed drinks. But yeah, stale beer is stinky. 

[CMZ]

1 minute ago, RevTestament said:

Long Island Ice Teas

Well, my statement was about alcohol, not iced tea. Besides "iced tea" is quite the opposite of a "hot drink." (And, I know you're joking. Just getting unnecessarily particular here.)

[RevTestament]

9 minutes ago, CMZ said:

Well, my statement was about alcohol, not iced tea. Besides "iced tea" is quite the opposite of a "hot drink." (And, I know you're joking. Just getting unnecessarily particular here.)

not joking dude. Look up Long Island Iced Tea - it is a delicious mixed alcoholic drink, but packs quite a punch. 

[CMZ]

14 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

not joking dude. Look up Long Island Iced Tea - it is a delicious mixed alcoholic drink, but packs quite a punch. 

I wasn't precise in my wording. I meant I knew your post wasn't telling people to break the Word of Wisdom.

[Marginal Gains]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Nonetheless, it is very heartening to know of Pres Nelson's kind reaction to this young woman's possible weakness.  All of us can take a lesson in ministry from that.

He was kindly chastising the Mission President. I’m not aware from the anecdote of any interaction between Pres Nelson and the lady herself. Perhaps I’ve missed it.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Marginal Gains

[Stargazer]

12 hours ago, CA Steve said:

So not being female, maybe It's just me, but this line in the story

is hugely condescending to me.

How does being unmarried, living alone and "trying her best" have anything to do with whether or not the Savior has a soft spot for this person? As if these things are supposed to be to  difficulties this woman had to overcome which led to her drinking. For all anyone knows, she enjoys being single, likes living by herself and may have no problems working as a lawyer.

I expect many will disagree, but what I see is a unconsciously condescending comment by someone who still thinks women want to  be home raising children for their husbands instead.

Yep, Elder Nelson's attempt to get the mission president to think more compassionately of the young woman is clearly wrong.

For all anyone knows, she was in a gay relationship, her partner dumped her last night, and she was tearfully drowning her sorrows in a bottle of vodka.  Or, the previous night her boyfriend declared that he actually identified as an attack helicopter and flew off to defend the border against the Croats, and she was tearfully drowning her sorrows in a bottle of vodka.  Or, the previous night she was watching a very depressing movie on the TV, and to cheer herself up she downed a bottle of vodka.  Or maybe she's just an alcoholic and managed to restrain herself to only HALF a bottle of vodka last night! Have fun making up your own combination!

Jeeze, what the heck do you think Elder Nelson should have said to show how to have compassion for the young woman?  Hint: anything you can think of will be declared politically incorrect by someone.

But given that this situation happened back in a day when the formerly conventional, now wildly out of mode lifestyles (like women marrying men and having children while the men went out to work) was the usual case, especially in the country referred to, and most young women seemed to gravitate to such situations -- especially in parts of the earth where feminism had not yet run completely rampant -- I think that Elder Nelson's sentiment was probably close to spot-on.

Why is it necessary to assume otherwise?  Does it just have to be condescension, or can we grant that his aim was actually compassion and credit him with good intentions?  Good intentions that didn't actually lead to hell?

Most everyone commenting, even including some Church critics, seem to take Elder Nelson's comment in a positive light.  Perhaps you are just bringing in the "opposition in all things" aspect.  

Edited May 22, 2018 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

9 hours ago, readstoomuch said:

It’s a beautiful story and it’s hard to find fault with it.  

Some people work very hard to do so, however.

[Marginal Gains]

1 minute ago, Stargazer said:

Yep, Elder Nelson's attempt to get the mission president to think more compassionately of the young woman is clearly wrong.

For all anyone knows, she was in a gay relationship, her partner dumped her last night, and she was tearfully drowning her sorrows in a bottle of vodka.  Or, the previous night her boyfriend declared that he actually identified as an attack helicopter and flew off to defend the border against the Croats, and she was tearfully drowning her sorrows in a bottle of vodka.  Or, the previous night she was watching a very depressing movie on the TV, and to cheer herself up she downed a bottle of vodka.  Or maybe she's just an alcoholic and managed to restrain herself to only HALF a bottle of vodka last night! Have fun making up your own combination!

Jeeze, what the heck do you think Elder Nelson should have said to show how to have compassion for the young woman?  Hint: anything you can think of will be declared politically incorrect by someone.

Perhaps he could have sat with her and chatted to see what was causing her to be distressed. Offered to give her a blessing. Maybe offered some support services if appropriate. Kept in touch to see how she was getting on etc. Wouldn’t that have made for a more poignant anecdote? 

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

Perhaps he could have sat with her and chatted to see what was causing her to be distressed. Offered to give her a blessing. Maybe offered some support services if appropriate. Kept in touch to see how she was getting on etc. Wouldn’t that have made for a more poignant anecdote? 

There is nothing in the story that prevented him from doing any of those things, in fact he probably found out she was living alone by talking to her.  The writer might simply not know about them because Pres. Nelson thought it was better confidential.

[Marginal Gains]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

There is nothing in the story that prevented him from doing any of those things, in fact he probably found out she was living alone by talking to her.  The writer might simply not know about them because Pres. Nelson thought it was better confidential.

I agree, we don’t know what we don’t know. 

[SteveO]

13 hours ago, CA Steve said:

So not being female, maybe It's just me, but this line in the story

is hugely condescending to me.

How does being unmarried, living alone and "trying her best" have anything to do with whether or not the Savior has a soft spot for this person? As if these things are supposed to be to  difficulties this woman had to overcome which led to her drinking. For all anyone knows, she enjoys being single, likes living by herself and may have no problems working as a lawyer.

I expect many will disagree, but what I see is a unconsciously condescending comment by someone who still thinks women want to  be home raising children for their husbands instead.

 

Stay "woke" brother...keep fighting the patriarchy

[stemelbow]

14 hours ago, pogi said:

That's my favorite part of the story 

I had a different reaction.  The nationalist rhetoric got ugly before the wars, ethnic cleansing and mass rapes occurred.  I'm sad to think the Church was there in the midst of fomenting war rhetoric and was unable to foresee or help.  It seems Pres Nelson and the Church's efforts there to get more missionaries and more Mormon preaching, was a waste.  Right on the brink of some of the most heinous human acts in our day.  

[stemelbow]

13 hours ago, CA Steve said:

So not being female, maybe It's just me, but this line in the story

is hugely condescending to me.

How does being unmarried, living alone and "trying her best" have anything to do with whether or not the Savior has a soft spot for this person? As if these things are supposed to be to  difficulties this woman had to overcome which led to her drinking. For all anyone knows, she enjoys being single, likes living by herself and may have no problems working as a lawyer.

I expect many will disagree, but what I see is a unconsciously condescending comment by someone who still thinks women want to  be home raising children for their husbands instead.

I admit I had a similar reaction.  What was the pity for?  She seemed to be doing just fine.  I don't know who was telling this story, though...haven't read the book.  

[pogi]

27 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I had a different reaction.  The nationalist rhetoric got ugly before the wars, ethnic cleansing and mass rapes occurred.  I'm sad to think the Church was there in the midst of fomenting war rhetoric and was unable to foresee or help.  It seems Pres Nelson and the Church's efforts there to get more missionaries and more Mormon preaching, was a waste.  Right on the brink of some of the most heinous human acts in our day.  

Are we talking about the same random drunken outburst to LDS officials?

You really should  question your ideas of what a church is and does.  We are not an intervening government that is to blame for not stopping foreign atrocities.  

Is there any wrong in this world that you don’t point your finger at the church for?

Edited May 22, 2018 by pogi

[SteveO]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

Are we talking about the same random drunken outburst to LDS officials?

You really should  question your ideas of what a church is and does.  We are not an intervening government that is to blame for not stopping foreign atrocities.  

Is there any wrong in this world that you don’t point your finger at the church for?

Don’t you know?  A “real” prophet would have raised his arm to the square and merely commanded peace...instantly ceasing all conflict

[Marginal Gains]

14 minutes ago, pogi said:

We are not an intervening government...

*ahem* same sex marriage *ahem* medicinal marijuana *ahem*

[stemelbow]

33 minutes ago, pogi said:

Are we talking about the same random drunken outburst to LDS officials?

Yes it's sad that nationalist hype got to the point it did int he former Yugoslavia and many were killed, many atrocities occurred.  The move to a Greater Serbia was an ugly one.  

33 minutes ago, pogi said:

You really should  question your ideas of what a church is and does.  We are not an intervening government that is to blame for not stopping foreign atrocities.

I'm thinking in a bigger picture kind of way.  I hear where you're coming from.  But if God wants the best for children and has people for whom he decides to work through, in a speaking to them through revelation kind of way, then it'd be odd for Him to command these emissaries to go to a land on the brink of war and talk about their own needs, while neglecting the needs of those people.  I'm not sure there's much point to God having emissaries if he doesn't use them to serve the people whom they travel to.  But, then again, if God intends the Church to remain small and less useful preferring other methods, fine, I guess.  What can we expect?  

33 minutes ago, pogi said:

 

Is there any wrong in this world that you don’t point your finger at the church for?

of course.  There are tons.  I'm just sad as I recall the events that unfolded in that country so long ago.  Sad also that prophets aren't here to prophecy of such things to help us.  

[CA Steve]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I admit I had a similar reaction.  What was the pity for?  She seemed to be doing just fine.  I don't know who was telling this story, though...haven't read the book.  

Well if this story was about a group of Relief Society women talking about the appearance and inebriation  of a male ward member and how it was okay with the bishop because the guy had lots of kids, a difficult marriage and worked with a lot of women, it would have been called gossip, not compassion.

Edited May 22, 2018 by CA Steve

[RevTestament]

20 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Yes it's sad that nationalist hype got to the point it did int he former Yugoslavia and many were killed, many atrocities occurred.  The move to a Greater Serbia was an ugly one.  

I'm thinking in a bigger picture kind of way.  I hear where you're coming from.  But if God wants the best for children and has people for whom he decides to work through, in a speaking to them through revelation kind of way, then it'd be odd for Him to command these emissaries to go to a land on the brink of war and talk about their own needs, while neglecting the needs of those people.  I'm not sure there's much point to God having emissaries if he doesn't use them to serve the people whom they travel to.  But, then again, if God intends the Church to remain small and less useful preferring other methods, fine, I guess.  What can we expect?  

of course.  There are tons.  I'm just sad as I recall the events that unfolded in that country so long ago.  Sad also that prophets aren't here to prophecy of such things to help us.  

Sometimes. The Lord has grown this Church in small ways. No great prophetic announcements. He gave a very convincing prophecy of the civil war to start in South Carolina, and yet people did not believe and flock to the Church. Instead they parodied the Church in race baiting cartoons condemning polygamy as a ending their segregationist ways.

The Church grew because people listened to the spirit manifest the truthfulness of the gospel to them. No huge prophetic signs or miracles. And when one comes, they will not believe it. The elders were not there for selfish reasons or to fulfill "their own needs." The Church needs places to operate from and to organize local efforts from. Here they were arranging just this and you are condemning them. Perhaps you would rather they go live on the street and yell at the people your would-be prophecies?

The Lord has given his prophetic warnings in D&C and the Book of Mormon. Most of the Western world has not listened, but instead has routinely tried to poke every hole they can in it. "What can we expect?" Exactly. Not much different from how the world has reacted to the LDS Church for 200 years now. I think the little things are what have helped the Church most to be heard and listened to.