"LDS Church: Legal analysis raises concerns about Utah medical marijuana initiative"

[Tacenda]

15 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

My strongly held conviction on the matter is that any healing properties would be a side effect. Marijuana, to me is best used to have a good time.

That said, I agree with the guy who got mad at me earlier. I’d need to see clinical evidence. Such evidence is, however sparse, but I’d blame the systematic vilifying of natural good-time methods like psychedelic mushrooms and weed in favor of the accepted, though more harmful alternatives. 

Does it have healing properties? I don’t know. But it was a hug factor in helping me quit drinking, which, for me , was a nice blending of the beneficial nature of cannabis—even if using it as a less-harmful alternative to other mind-altering chemicals is the only “healing” property—along with the fun parts, which are, for me, the main event. 

Well, welcome to the board, I hope you stick around long enough for us to get to know you better. My brother is near death with his alcoholism. I'm so happy you have recovered from it! Did you mean to say weed helped or olive oil? Or both? 

I would be the last person to want weed for the fun. I've tried it and I hated every moment. I was the paranoid person and was miserable and wanted to die. It may just be my personality. Worry wart that I am. I do believe the pot nowadays is much stronger and that is a worry especially since my son likes to smoke or vape some weed. He has ADD and says it helps him focus. But I believe it's harmed him, he used to love basketball & golf. He was even on his high school's golf team. But now not so much, of course he's suffering from some depression as well, but it's a long story. So I totally understand the concern everyone has. 

I hate weed for the high aspect! Hate not feeling in control. But I see it only for it's medicinal purposes (sound like a broken record here) much like many things in the earth that can heal, including mushrooms. Even the ones that get you high, have a purpose, too bad we humans or even the health community can't figure out how to make it all work without the harmful side affects. One day maybe.

[FunOnlineMan]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well, welcome to the board, I hope you stick around long enough for us to get to know you better. My brother is near death with his alcoholism. I'm so happy you have recovered from it! Did you mean to say weed helped or olive oil? Or both? 

I would be the last person to want weed for the fun. I've tried it and I hated every moment. I was the paranoid person and was miserable and wanted to die. It may just be my personality. Worry wart that I am. I do believe the pot nowadays is much stronger and that is a worry especially since my son likes to smoke or vape some weed. He has ADD and says it helps him focus. But I believe it's harmed him, he used to love basketball & golf. He was even on his high school's golf team. But now not so much, of course he's suffering from some depression as well, but it's a long story. So I totally understand the concern everyone has. 

I hate weed for the high aspect! Hate not feeling in control. But I see it only for it's medicinal purposes (sound like a broken record here) much like many things in the earth that can heal, including mushrooms. Even the ones that get you high, have a purpose, too bad we humans or even the health community can't figure out how to make it all work without the harmful side affects. One day maybe.

I just realized I didn’t answer your olive oil question. I was referring to consecrated oil, mainly because that other guy seemed to be treating anecdotal evidence as a laughably naive means of showing CBD’s respective healing properties (Ps: I agree that we need more than anecdotal evidence; so in my heart of hearts I know he was right—just don’t tell him).

You also requested a post sans silliness, and I want you to know that many people in all aspects of my life share your desires, but this is just the way I came out, I guess. 

I hope your brother finds a way back. I wasn’t near death, so I don’t know exactly what he’s going through, but I know that my less dire position seemed completely unbearable at the time—to the point that I now can’t even empathize with the husk of a person that I was. 

As for your son, it sounds like he needs to find a balance. I have been diagnosed with both ADD and depression. I sometimes feel like weed doesn’t so much help me focus as it increases my my focus peaks and my distractive valleys. In other words, if my latent ADD focus level were a steady 3, weed makes it ebb between lie 1 and 10 instead. So, I could watch water boil and notice every minute detail, but also forget what I’m talking abou mid-sentence. I wouldn’t blame weed outright for his migration away from athletics. My own anecdotal evidence tells me that’s probably the depression at work. I hope he finds a workable solution. That’s another place I can hardly go to self-empathize. 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

How many deaths from marijuana: 0

Pogi, did you see that? And we are worried about self medicating with cannabis? We are worried about making it legal? For people to put some in a brownie to treat pain? For growing a plant and eating in a salad? Even smoking one puff a day to prevent Alzheimer's? (I don't do this) We are scared to make it legal? Instead we want to trust big pharma, and yes I will call it that once again. Because they are big, and corrupt. Have you ever heard, read, or seen a person that is on every medication imaginable? And when taken off how much better they are? I've seen it. Giving this evil agency rights to corrupt cannabis is not a good thing. They will package it and take away any chance of using cannabis naturally by making it only legal if you purchase it through your doctor. I know I am speaking black and white terms but this is my feeling. Pharma has killed thousands, this is clear. 

Again, I am not arguing that all pharmaceuticals are safer then marijuana.  Clearly, pharmaceuticals, can be very dangerous.  Tacenda, again, I am not "afraid" to legalize marijuana.  I just think that it should taken off the schedule I listing of the DEA so that it can be properly studied.  Only then will we know if it really treats the hundreds of conditions that people claim that it treats. Don't you want to know Tacenda?  Do you really want to waste your money on Alzheimer's prevention that doesn't really work and can potentially have unwanted side effects?  I don't want marijuana to follow the same sham route as the rest of the herbal industry with unfounded claims with contaminated products and no regulation.  What a pity that would be when marijuana potentially has so much potential to do good.  

Ok, zero deaths from marijuana, but is death the only risk factor to consider?  Does that mean that it is entirely without unwanted and potentially harmful side effects?  Even Tylenol can damage your liver, NSAIDs can cause GI hemorrhage, etc.  Relatively benign medicines can have adverse effects (if not death) when taken improperly at the wrong dose, frequency, time, etc.  What are the long-term neuro-cognitive effects of marijuana?  I know a lot of long-term dope smokers,lets just say they are not always up to par cognitively speaking.  There is a noticeable difference. Of course that is anecdotal, but don't you want to know what the real risks and benefits are? 

That is my only point.  I am all for legalization, but I think it should be through the proper channels, otherwise it will fall victim to the same problems that the herbal industry faces, and that would be a terrible shame!

Edited July 16, 2018 by pogi

[FunOnlineMan]

It might be the weed, but this guy is making a lot of sense. 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Again, I am not arguing that all pharmaceuticals are safer then marijuana.  Clearly, pharmaceuticals, can be very dangerous.  Tacenda, again, I am not "afraid" to legalize marijuana.  I just think that it should taken off the schedule I listing of the DEA so that it can be properly studied.  Only then will we know if it really treats the hundreds of conditions that people claim that it treats. Don't you want to know Tacenda?  Do you really want to waste your money on Alzheimer's prevention that doesn't really work and can potentially have unwanted side effects?  I don't want marijuana to follow the same sham route as the rest of the herbal industry with unfounded claims with contaminated products and no regulation.  What a pity that would be when marijuana potentially has so much potential to do good.  

Ok, zero deaths from marijuana, but is death the only risk factor to consider?  Does that mean that it is entirely without unwanted and potentially harmful side effects?  Even Tylenol can damage your liver, NSAIDs can cause GI hemorrhage, etc.  Relatively benign medicines can have adverse effects (if not death) when taken improperly at the wrong dose, frequency, time, etc.  What are the long-term neuro-cognitive effects of marijuana?  I know a lot of long-term dope smokers,lets just say they are not always up to par cognitively speaking.  There is a noticeable difference. Of course that is anecdotal, but don't you want to know what the real risks and benefits are? 

That is my only point.  I am all for legalization, but I think it should be through the proper channels, otherwise it will fall victim to the same problems that the herbal industry faces, and that would be a terrible shame!

Ok, just thought it ok for people to use it before that happens, if their condition is immediate, or people like me that are hoping against all odds of not getting full blown Alz. And not likeing feeling like a felon, or someone who could get convicted of a crime. 

Thanks for all of your patience with me Pogi. I hope too for it to get off schedule 1, in fact I can't wait!  

[pogi]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Ok, just thought it ok for people to use it before that happens...

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.  That is my point. We just don't know.  Sure, it won't kill you if that is all you are concerned about. 

16 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

or people like me that are hoping against all odds of not getting full blown Alz.

There are cheaper ways to prevent Alzheimer's:

https://www.helpguide.org/articles/alzheimers-dementia-aging/preventing-alzheimers-disease.htm

 

[RevTestament]

31 minutes ago, pogi said:

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.  That is my point. We just don't know.  Sure, it won't kill you if that is all you are concerned about. 

There are cheaper ways to prevent Alzheimer's:

https://www.helpguide.org/articles/alzheimers-dementia-aging/preventing-alzheimers-disease.htm

Mmm. I know someone who lived these six pillars with the possible exception of regular exercise - still got Alzheimer's like his dad. While living a healthy lifestyle, I'm sure helps, it won't necessarily stop alzheimer's at all. I made a post on the subject awhile back. Doing things which prevent the buildup of the plaque will help - a short period of daily sun for vitamin D, etc.

[RevTestament]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Again, I am not arguing that all pharmaceuticals are safer then marijuana.  Clearly, pharmaceuticals, can be very dangerous.  Tacenda, again, I am not "afraid" to legalize marijuana.  I just think that it should taken off the schedule I listing of the DEA so that it can be properly studied.  Only then will we know if it really treats the hundreds of conditions that people claim that it treats. Don't you want to know Tacenda?  Do you really want to waste your money on Alzheimer's prevention that doesn't really work and can potentially have unwanted side effects?  I don't want marijuana to follow the same sham route as the rest of the herbal industry with unfounded claims with contaminated products and no regulation.  What a pity that would be when marijuana potentially has so much potential to do good.  

Ok, zero deaths from marijuana, but is death the only risk factor to consider?  Does that mean that it is entirely without unwanted and potentially harmful side effects?  Even Tylenol can damage your liver, NSAIDs can cause GI hemorrhage, etc.  Relatively benign medicines can have adverse effects (if not death) when taken improperly at the wrong dose, frequency, time, etc.  What are the long-term neuro-cognitive effects of marijuana?  I know a lot of long-term dope smokers,lets just say they are not always up to par cognitively speaking.  There is a noticeable difference. Of course that is anecdotal, but don't you want to know what the real risks and benefits are? 

That is my only point.  I am all for legalization, but I think it should be through the proper channels, otherwise it will fall victim to the same problems that the herbal industry faces, and that would be a terrible shame!

So, you want to make all herbs prescription? Forget that. No way. While I agree many companies are shamful, since almost all these herbal products are sold through interstate commerce, it is within the power of the Federal government to regulate them. They could test the products from time to time much like the FDA does with agricultural inspectors to ensure that they contain what they say. Otherwise, there is not much reason to make them prescription. Prescriptions are necessary to protect us from physical harm - not scams. Sometimes scammers just get away with it, but periodic testing would stop that.

[pogi]

32 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Mmm. I know someone who lived these six pillars with the possible exception of regular exercise - still got Alzheimer's like his dad. While living a healthy lifestyle, I'm sure helps, it won't necessarily stop alzheimer's at all. I made a post on the subject awhile back. Doing things which prevent the buildup of the plaque will help - a short period of daily sun for vitamin D, etc.

Sure, nothing is a guarantee.  Not even marijuana 

I think some people just like the convenience of taking a daily pill (or puff) instead of taking measures to improve their physical and mental health.  That is the American way!  

[pogi]

57 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

So, you want to make all herbs prescription? Forget that. No way. While I agree many companies are shamful, since almost all these herbal products are sold through interstate commerce, it is within the power of the Federal government to regulate them. They could test the products from time to time much like the FDA does with agricultural inspectors to ensure that they contain what they say. Otherwise, there is not much reason to make them prescription. Prescriptions are necessary to protect us from physical harm - not scams. Sometimes scammers just get away with it, but periodic testing would stop that.

Are you saying that herbals can't cause serious harm?

I never said they should require prescriptions.  I think that herbals should fall under the same category and regulations as over-the-counter medicines (OTC's). 

Quote

While I agree many companies are shamful

"Many" is an understatement!

Quote

 

The findings are dismal and quite discouraging for consumers and health professionals alike. Only 48% of products were authentic. 59% of the products contained species not listed on the label. One-third contained fillers and contaminants that were not labeled. Amazingly, another third of products tested contained a substituted ingredient – and none of the labeled ingredient. Of the 12 companies sampled, only two had authentic products without any substitution, contaminants, and fillers. Unlabelled fillers including wheat, soy, and rice, were found in 20% of products. Three companies had products for which no products could be authenticated:

Some of the products were of such poor quality that harms could be expected. One sample was labelled as containing St. John’s wort (used to treat depression) but actually only contained senna, a laxative. Several products were contaminated with feverfew, which has chemical ingredients that can cause side effects, including withdrawal syndromes. Feverfew may also interfere with the elimination of some prescription drugs, and needs to be avoided in pregnancy. Another product was contaminated with black walnut, which has a nasty side effect profile. And there’s also the undisclosed wheat in some products, which would be harmful to those with Celiac disease or a wheat allergy.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/new-concerns-about-the-safety-and-quality-of-herbal-supplements/

 

 

Edited July 16, 2018 by pogi

[Calm]

Tryptophan was taken of the market for years because it was contaminated and killed people. It came back first as a prescription and now is back in health stores. Useful for sleep.  I loved it back in the days when my disorder was mild  Took it all through my pregnancy and slept much better than with my first. Now I wonder if it unbalanced brain chemistry for my daughter.

Kava raises blood pressure and iirc caused at least one death a little after it became popular. It is one product that was notorious for many brands having no therapeutic amount.  There wasn’t enough kava in the world to provide the demand  

The nutritional herbal market is a billion dollar industry. That is a lot of harm if people are paying for stuff they aren’t getting. If it was prescription drugs,these people would be going to jail. 

Mom got $5000 in a class action settlement against Mercola for a light box that was claimed to be full spectrum, etc. Total lie.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Calm

[RevTestament]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I know you kid, but what are your real feelings on CBD/THC for treatment? No silliness okay? I actually looked a little bit into your claim of olive oil. And I think it does have medicinal properties. Luckily you can purchase this over the counter in any grocery store out there. I not only believe in CBD oil, I believe in many herbs or natural means to cure disease. I used CBD oil and Tea Tree oil to rub on a case of Shingles I had a couple of months ago and my shingles was so mild compared to my MIL and mom when they had it. 

I bought Oregano oil recently and it's pretty powerful, so one needs to be careful not to ingest it. So I'm very open to your statement of Olive Oil being a cure for things.  

 

The Oregano oil you are talking about is an essential oil, and is not made from Greek Oregano, a mild cultivar. It is essentially biblical hyssop, and grows wild in the Mediterranean region as Origanum syriacum. Jewish oral tradition expressly prohibited Greek hyssop, and the biblical plant is said to have been identical to the Arabic word, zaatar (Origanum syriacum). Although modern tradition has tied biblical hyssop to Hyssopus officinalis, this plant does not grow in the region of Judah nor the Levant, so cannot be the biblical hyssop. The essential oil of Hyssopus officinalis is not recommeded for internal use as it is known to cause seizures and convulsions in even low doses.

I wouldn't ingest Oregano oil in large amounts, but I have added about 5 drops to another carrier oil - pick one; any will do - and dripped it from a syringe down the back of my throat to kill sore throats. In fact this was my cure for the first time I got strep throat. After about a week of use once every morning - even though the sore throat had gone away - I got rid of the strep altogether - no prophylactic antibiotics necessary - and with virtually no symptoms other than the original sore throat, which went away within about 10 minutes of using the oregano oil. Oregano oil not only has antibacterial properties, but testing has purportedly shown it to be antiviral as well. I keep it in my fridge at all times, but rarely need it now that my kids are grown. I use it and a C & F remedy every time I feel a cold come on. There is supposedly no cure for the common cold, but if I use this stuff every time I start to feel a cold come on, the cold goes away. I use the C & F formula for 3-5 days every morning.

My worst problem is a sinus issue due to allergies. I use a generic Z-y-r-t-e-c for this, and if I get congested for more than three days, I clean out with a mix of Alkolol (not alcohol) to prevent the onset of a sinus infection.

Consequently, I have not been to a doctor for decades except to repair my hernia. I did use some antibiotics on a few occasions before I learned how to deal with my sinus issues, and used a nurse practitioner once to get a Z-pak.

Edited July 16, 2018 by RevTestament

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

The Oregano oil you are talking about is an essential oil, and is not made from Greek Oregano, a mild cultivar. It is essentially biblical hyssop, and grows wild in the Mediterranean region as Origanum syriacum. Jewish oral tradition expressly prohibited Greek hyssop, and the biblical plant is said to have been identical to the Arabic word, zaatar (Origanum syriacum). Although modern tradition has tied biblical hyssop to Hyssopus officinalis, this plant does not grow in the region of Judah nor the Levant, so cannot be the biblical hyssop. The essential oil of Hyssopus officinalis is not recommeded for internal use as it is known to cause seizures and convulsions in even low doses.

I wouldn't ingest Oregano oil in large amounts, but I have added about 5 drops to another carrier oil - pick one; any will do - and dripped it from a syringe down the back of my throat to kill sore throats. In fact this was my cure for the first time I got strep throat. After about a week of use once every morning - even though the sore throat had gone away - I got rid of the strep altogether - no prophylactic antibiotics necessary - and with virtually no symptoms other than the original sore throat, which went away within about 10 minutes of using the oregano oil. Oregano oil not only has antibacterial properties, but testing has purportedly shown it to be antiviral as well. I keep it in my fridge at all times, but rarely need it now that my kids are grown. I use it and a C & F remedy every time I feel a cold come on. There is supposedly no cure for the common cold, but if I use this stuff every time I start to feel a cold come on, the cold goes away. I use the C & F formula for 3-5 days every morning.

My worst problem is a sinus issue due to allergies. I use a generic Z-tec for this, and if I get congested for more than three days, I clean out with a mix of Alkolol (not alcohol) to prevent the onset of a sinus infection.

Consequently, I have not been to a doctor for decades except to repair my hernia. I did use some antibiotics on a few occasions before I learned how to deal with my sinus issues, and used a nurse practitioner once to get a Z-pak.

I was just reiterating what FunOnlineMan was mentioning about Olive Oil. I've never used it to treat any ailments, but I did look it up and I guess it does have a lot of benefits. Made me realize that CBD oil isn't the end all be all, but pretty close.

I got the Oregano Oil to treat a fungus on my toenail, boy I'm in sad shape. Embarrassed to say that, lol. I'm thinking I might have caught it when I had a pedicure a few years ago. You never want to get it, it's almost impossible to get rid of. Mine was very mild, but you know what, I'm pretty vain sometimes and I have tried everything to get rid of it. I think I'm making progress. 

And I may have even used a little of it on my shingles case, but just a little because it's very harsh. I'm glad you were cautious with it, surprised you ingested it, but I guess if you do it right, then it sounds like it did the trick! 

 

[RevTestament]

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

Tryptophan was taken of the market for years because it was contaminated and killed people. It came back first as a prescription and now is back in health stores. Useful for sleep.  I loved it back in the days when my disorder was mild  Took it all through my pregnancy and slept much better than with my first. Now I wonder if it unbalanced brain chemistry for my daughter.

Kava raises blood pressure and iirc caused at least one death a little after it became popular. It is one product that was notorious for many brands having no therapeutic amount.  There wasn’t enough kava in the world to provide the demand  

The nutritional herbal market is a billion dollar industry. That is a lot of harm if people are paying for stuff they aren’t getting. If it was prescription drugs,these people would be going to jail. 

Mom got $5000 in a class action settlement against Mercola for a light box that was claimed to be full spectrum, etc. Total lie.

Tryptophan is a good example of a useful product which really doesn't need to be prescription. I get mine from bananas and turkey  

Unless it is contaminated, it is fairly harmless. So far it seems CBD is in this category. If the government wants to make it a prescription drug, or a controlled substance, I think the burden should fall on them to prove it is dangerous somehow. After all they are impinging on our rights to freedom and the pursuit of health and happiness.

I did not say the nutritional herbal market should not be regulated. Indeed, I suggested that since interstate commerce is involved the federal government presumably has some rights to regulate it. I am not opposed to that to ensure that the products are what they say they are. I am suspicious that I recently got ahold of a product that is not what it claims. I think that problem has grown with the rising popularity of the herbal products market. However, the harm is probably just usually financial rather than physical like prescription drugs can cause.

[RevTestament]

20 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I was just reiterating what FunOnlineMan was mentioning about Olive Oil. I've never used it to treat any ailments, but I did look it up and I guess it does have a lot of benefits. Made me realize that CBD oil isn't the end all be all, but pretty close.

I got the Oregano Oil to treat a fungus on my toenail, boy I'm in sad shape. Embarrassed to say that, lol. I'm thinking I might have caught it when I had a pedicure a few years ago. You never want to get it, it's almost impossible to get rid of. Mine was very mild, but you know what, I'm pretty vain sometimes and I have tried everything to get rid of it. I think I'm making progress. 

And I may have even used a little of it on my shingles case, but just a little because it's very harsh. I'm glad you were cautious with it, surprised you ingested it, but I guess if you do it right, then it sounds like it did the trick! 

 

Toe nail fungus is a toughy. I have used Tea Tree oil for it, but it really is resistant to the oil because the oil can't get through the nail. Probably the best cure for it is an oral systemic antifungal, but if you are in a humid client, it will probably still come back. I got rid of mine by religious use of tea tree oil in the winter when I moved to the dry climate of Utah.

If you know your Oregano oil is from Oreganum Syriacum, I believe its ingestion is safe in small doses. I have never suffered any ill effects from it, and have used it to cure many a sore throat.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Tryptophan was taken of the market for years because it was contaminated and killed people. It came back first as a prescription and now is back in health stores. Useful for sleep.  I loved it back in the days when my disorder was mild  Took it all through my pregnancy and slept much better than with my first. Now I wonder if it unbalanced brain chemistry for my daughter.

Kava raises blood pressure and iirc caused at least one death a little after it became popular. It is one product that was notorious for many brands having no therapeutic amount.  There wasn’t enough kava in the world to provide the demand  

The nutritional herbal market is a billion dollar industry. That is a lot of harm if people are paying for stuff they aren’t getting. If it was prescription drugs,these people would be going to jail. 

Mom got $5000 in a class action settlement against Mercola for a light box that was claimed to be full spectrum, etc. Total lie.

I recently started putting turmeric root in my green smoothies for its excellent antioxidant and and anti-inflammatory properties.  Suddenly, I was sleeping better then I have ever slept in my entire life!  Really deep rejuvenating sleep.  I used to be a very light sleeper and never had any dreams that I could remember, but now I sleep really deep and have dreams every night.  I couldn't figure out why I was sleeping so well, but thought that it must be related to the turmeric.  So I did a little research, and sure enough, that is one of the many claimed beneficial properties of this root.  I learned that the compound curcumin in the turmeric is much better absorbed when taken with black pepper (don't need a lot) and a fat like coconut oil.  I now put a little in my smoothie in the morning (doesn't cause any drowsiness during the day), and take about a 1/2 teaspoon ground root mixed with coconut oil and pepper right before bed.  Works like a charm!

Tacenda, if you are interested in Alzheimer's prevention, turmeric is supposed to help prevent that as well.  I have not looked into that claim much to see if it is valid or not, but thought you might be interested.  You can pay a fortune for it in pill form as an herbal supplement (called curcumin) and may or may not get what you are actually paying for, or you can buy the root for really cheap at Harmon's grocery and put it in your blender with a little oil and pepper for much much cheaper.  Be careful if you have diabetes and are using insulin, it can lower your blood sugar to dangerous levels. 

Edited July 16, 2018 by pogi

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Are you saying that herbals can't cause serious harm?

Of course not. I am saying that if normal or recommended use has no significant harmful effects (some people are allergic to water) that it should not be a prescription or controlled substance. Some herbs like comfrey can cause harm from "normal use." Why should CBD be a controlled or prescription substance? Is there any rationale for that? Should we need a prescription to buy herbal seasonings from the grocery store? You seem to want to shut down the herbal industry because companies cheat on the ingredients. Don't you know that if you go to buy "extra virgin olive oil" from the grocery store, you probably aren't getting that? It has been estimated that most of these foreign oils are actually blends - virtually none are 100% extra virgin olive oil. Should we ban the import then? I think the vast amount of companies are not going to intentionally sell something that could do harm, because the legal system and the threat of being sued will keep them honest that way, but they will fudge ingredients etc, and like I said I don't have a problem with periodic inspections or preferably testing to ensure the products aren't a rip-off.

Quote

I never said they should require prescriptions.  I think that herbals should fall under the same category and regulations as over-the-counter medicines (OTC's). 

Many OTC medicines were once prescription. I am not in favor of that route for herbs as a general rule, unless serious bodily harm can be caused by the use of a product.

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I agree, but alcohol is legal and has pretty much zero medicinal purpose. So keep it legal, but take away all the wonderful capabilities of cannabis that has shown to cure and treat? Even help treat opioid abuse? 

I just want it for medicine, it's proven over and over that it helps. I want that available to people, not the high, but then again THC is what is needed in certain circumstances too. We can't discount it. 

I totally understand the apprehension, I get it to the nth degree. If I wasn't aware of cbd oil's wonders, I'd probably be the same. The proof is in the lives that it has changed. That's all.

There may be some medicinal effects for wine, but not unique to it certainly.

Making it illegal isn't going to work, but higher penalties for harming others while under the influence and insurance premiums s going up for health as well as cars if pulled in for drunk and disorderly behaviour, etc. would be wise, imo.  Doubt the liquor lobby would go along with that though.

PS:  Tumeric gives me the jitters, pretty much anything that stimulates can...such as too much ginger.  In fact anything that affects the brain seems to do it these days.  Mom is going into assisted living soon, maybe when that constant anxiety of waiting for the disaster call goes, I will settle down enough to try stuff again.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Calm

[Kenngo1969]

18 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Mmm. I know someone who lived these six pillars with the possible exception of regular exercise - still got Alzheimer's like his dad. While living a healthy lifestyle, I'm sure helps, it won't necessarily stop alzheimer's at all. I made a post on the subject awhile back. Doing things which prevent the buildup of the plaque will help - a short period of daily sun for vitamin D, etc.

There is at least one "exception" to every "rule," so if we're going to start throwing out every rule on that basis alone, we'd best be prepared for complete chaos.  In any event, I'm not sure the "rule" is "One who does all of these things is guaranteed to not get Alzheimers."  Rather, it's more likely that the "rule" is, "One who does all of these things lessens the chances that he will (or increases the chances that he won't, if you prefer) get Alzheimers" (though, regrettably, again, there are "exceptions" to that "rule" who will get Alzheimers.

[RevTestament]

39 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

There is at least one "exception" to every "rule," so if we're going to start throwing out every rule on that basis alone, we'd best be prepared for complete chaos.  In any event, I'm not sure the "rule" is "One who does all of these things is guaranteed to not get Alzheimers."  Rather, it's more likely that the "rule" is, "One who does all of these things lessens the chances that he will (or increases the chances that he won't, if you prefer) get Alzheimers" (though, regrettably, again, there are "exceptions" to that "rule" who will get Alzheimers.

No offense, but that is like saying following these 6 pillars will help you prevent cancer. I'm sure exposure to less artificial foods, etc, will help, but I know plenty of people who have followed a healthy lifestyle but gotten cancer anyway. It is well known that susceptibility to certain cancers can follow genetic lines. To tell my aunt for instance "just follow the six pillars and don't worry about it" could have doomed her to die of breast cancer. Her mother got it, and she got it even though as a PE teacher she got regular exercise, and lived what we consider a healthy lifestyle. My father got prostate cancer too despite eating home cooked meals, watching his calories, etc. 

Alzheimer's is a complicated process, which is not well understood, but simply living a healthy lifestyle is not going to necessarily prevent the disease at all. For those who have a family history of this disease, I certainly recommend they pay more attention than that. I will recreate my prior post here:

there are probably a number of factors important in its onset. it is probably a genetically-predisposed condition, but it is likely there are things we can do to stop its progression if we know what to do. Vitamin D3 and Omega 3 fats seem to cause macrophages to absorb more amyloid betas. While this probably won't get rid of the amyloid plaques already in the brain, it could probably reduce or stop their flow to the brain through the arteries. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/255957.php  So it seems a half hour to hour of daily sun could be very beneficial. 

Being that the prevalence of Alzheimer's seems to be increasing, it seems to me that something that we have started doing or stopped doing may be a key factor. It seems statin drugs or anti-cholesterol drugs given by doctors could be a cause of the increase. These drugs are prescribed to approx 25% of people over 50 in the US. 

A last thing which has dramatically changed is our use of antibiotics. Antibiotics usually kill off our healthy gut flora. Most people don't realize that our gut flora are important in production of serotonin and dopamine - two chemicals very important to our brain function. http://www.caltech.edu/news/microbes-help-produce-serotonin-gut-46495 Therefore, a wide-spectrum acidophilus and bifidus supplement seems doubly important after antibiotic use, but probably neglected in elderly patients who are treated for pneumonia, etc with heavy doses of antibiotics.

That gut feeling - American Psychological Association
www.apa.org › Monitor on Psychology › September 2012 Monitor on Psychology

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Evidence has mounted that the gut microbiome can influence neural ... For example, gut bacteria manufacture about 95 percent of the body's supply of serotonin, ...

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70624-lds-church-gets-beat-on-medical-marijuana/?do=findComment&comment=1209824883

 

[pogi]

17 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Of course not. I am saying that if normal or recommended use has no significant harmful effects (some people are allergic to water) that it should not be a prescription or controlled substance. Some herbs like comfrey can cause harm from "normal use." Why should CBD be a controlled or prescription substance?

Again, I am not suggesting that herbs/cbd be prescription medications or "controlled substances", simply that they undergo the same requirements of OTC meds like Tylen0l, c0ugh syrup, and @ntacids, etc.  Why not?  What is the difference? If they both make medicinal claims, they should be required to back that up.  Why should herbals get a free-pass in the market when OTC's are subject to regulations?  The fact that herbals are natural does not make them any safer than synthetic dr-gs.  They pose similar risks to OTC's which are also considered "safe" if taken as directed.  The difference is that we KNOW that OTC's are safe if taken as directed, the same can't be said for herbals - because THEY HAVE NOT BEEN SUBJECT TO TESTING.  In fact, many herbals have been deadly, killing hundreds, when taken "as directed" such as Ephedr@.  The market place should NOT be the testing ground for these products!  This is not to mention non-deadly adverse reactions that people may not recognize are caused by their herbals. 

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16 hours ago, RevTestament said:
You seem to want to shut down the herbal industry because companies cheat on the ingredients. 

Not at all.  I simply want them to be required to back up their claims (like other medicines), so we don't have to guess with out health and waste billions of dollars/year on expensive piss.  Consumer confidence will only help the industry.  It would also boost consumer confidence if they were confident that they were actually getting what they pay for, instead of really expensive rice powder in a pill.

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16 hours ago, RevTestament said:
Don't you know that if you go to buy "extra virgin olive oil" from the grocery store, you probably aren't getting that? It has been estimated that most of these foreign oils are actually blends - virtually none are 100% extra virgin olive oil. Should we ban the import then?

 That is a red herring.  I never said anything about banning products.  Yes, they should be better regulated however.  Are you saying that because Peter cheats , we should allow Paul to cheat also?

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16 hours ago, RevTestament said:
I am not in favor of that route for herbs as a general rule, unless serious bodily harm can be caused by the use of a product.

The point is, how are you going to know if a product can cause serious bodily harm until it is tested?  The market place, again, should not be the testing ground for medicinal products, making medicinal claims.  What is the down side?  Why are you more concerned about the wealth of herbal companies than for the safety and protection against fraud of consumers? 
 

Edited July 17, 2018 by pogi

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

Again, I am not suggesting that herbs/cbd be prescription medications or "controlled substances", simply that they undergo the same requirements of OTC meds like Tylen0l, c0ugh syrup, and @ntacids, etc.  Why not?  What is the difference? If they both make medicinal claims, they should be required to back that up.  Why should herbals get a free-pass in the market when OTC's are subject to regulations?  The fact that herbals are natural does not make them any safer than synthetic dr-gs.  They pose similar risks to OTC's which are also considered "safe" if taken as directed.  The difference is that we KNOW that OTC's are safe if taken as directed, the same can't be said for herbals - because THEY HAVE NOT BEEN SUBJECT TO TESTING.  In fact, many herbals have been deadly, killing hundreds, when taken "as directed" such as Ephedr@.  The market place should NOT be the testing ground for these products!  This is not to mention non-deadly adverse reactions that people may not recognize are caused by their herbals. 

Not at all.  I simply want them to be required to back up their claims (like other medicines), so we don't have to guess with out health and waste billions of dollars/year on expensive piss.  Consumer confidence will only help the industry. 

 That is a red herring.  I never said anything about banning products.  Yes, they should be better regulated however.  Are you saying that because Peter cheats , we should allow Paul to cheat also?

The point is, how are you going to know if a product can cause serious bodily harm until it is tested?  The market place, again, should not be the testing ground for medicinal products, making medicinal claims.  What is the down side?  Why are you more concerned about the wealth of herbal companies than for the safety and protection against fraud of consumers? 
 

https://canabidol.com/testing/

 https://strongcbdoil.com/lab-tested/

Here are a couple of testing labs. Why can't the individuals do this instead of worrying over a lab by a pharmaceutical company do it. I don't trust pharm at all. They are out of touch with the world, they have put out more product that is deadly than any herb/CBD/weed could ever do. Why would I want them to go near the cannabis industry? They would package it in a way that would drive up the cost. They are in it for the money. And they pay off our doctors to prescribe medicine. They are evil. 

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/11/health/prescription-opioid-payments-eprise/index.html

 

[pogi]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

https://canabidol.com/testing/

 https://strongcbdoil.com/lab-tested/

Here are a couple of testing labs. Why can't the individuals do this instead of worrying over a lab by a pharmaceutical company do it. I don't trust pharm at all. They are out of touch with the world, they have put out more product that is deadly than any herb/CBD/weed could ever do. Why would I want them to go near the cannabis industry? They would package it in a way that would drive up the cost. They are in it for the money. And they pay off our doctors to prescribe medicine. They are evil. 

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/11/health/prescription-opioid-payments-eprise/index.html

 

I don't trust big pharm either. That is why it is critical that big pharm does not oversee themselves...and they don't.  The FDA does.  The process has worked to reduce corruption in big pharm, and it will work with the herbal industry too.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

No offense, but that is like saying following these 6 pillars will help you prevent cancer.

How so?  I'm not sure you read my post, or that you comprehended if you did, because it seems to me that we're saying essentially the same thing: Activity A may lessen the chances of Adverse Outcome B, which is not the same thing as saying, categorically, that Activity A prevents Adverse Outcome B.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Kenngo1969

[RevTestament]

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

Again, I am not suggesting that herbs/cbd be prescription medications or "controlled substances", simply that they undergo the same requirements of OTC meds like Tylen0l, c0ugh syrup, and @ntacids, etc.  Why not?  What is the difference? If they both make medicinal claims, they should be required to back that up.  Why should herbals get a free-pass in the market when OTC's are subject to regulations?  The fact that herbals are natural does not make them any safer than synthetic dr-gs.  They pose similar risks to OTC's which are also considered "safe" if taken as directed.  The difference is that we KNOW that OTC's are safe if taken as directed, the same can't be said for herbals - because THEY HAVE NOT BEEN SUBJECT TO TESTING.  In fact, many herbals have been deadly, killing hundreds, when taken "as directed" such as Ephedr@.  The market place should NOT be the testing ground for these products!  This is not to mention non-deadly adverse reactions that people may not recognize are caused by their herbals. 

Ephedr* is not really an herbal - it is a concentrated derivative not available in natural form. It is also regulated, and cannot be purchased in large quantities as I'm sure you know. I sometimes use it because it is an excellent decongestant. I have no problem with its regulation because as you note, it has been implicated in multiple deaths, but as you know it doesn't require a prescription. 

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Not at all.  I simply want them to be required to back up their claims (like other medicines), so we don't have to guess with out health and waste billions of dollars/year on expensive piss.  Consumer confidence will only help the industry.  It would also boost consumer confidence if they were confident that they were actually getting what they pay for, instead of really expensive rice powder in a pill.

Federal law prevents most herbal products from making health or treatment claims. That is the realm of prescription drugs. As I have said, I am not opposed to testing to ensure herbal products contain what they claim, but that is different from making claims of treatment for diseases etc. Most herbals are more like food, and are taken as preventatives rather than cures.

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 That is a red herring.  I never said anything about banning products.  Yes, they should be better regulated however.  Are you saying that because Peter cheats , we should allow Paul to cheat also?

Perhaps our concern about what constitutes cheating is different. If people believe stinging nettle will help their acne, I think they should be able to buy it. I just want to ensure that companies are not substituting corn starch instead. You seem to want the company to prove what stinging nettle is good for. That is a hugely expensive and tall order for preventatives. How do you prove you prevented a disease from occurring? Hard to do. It would threaten the existence of the whole industry. In this case CBD would often be used as a preventative too. I don't want some doctor telling me I can't take it because I don't have epilepsy, but I also don't want some company to cheat and sell me corn starch instead. Those are two different types of concerns. I have no problem regulating the latter and potentially putting companies who cheat by substituting ingredients (financial fraud) out of business. I agree they are bad for the industry. My point about bringing up virgin olive oil is that financial fraud is a different kind of risk than health claims (and trying to prove fraud). The truth is if I want extra virgin olive oil, I am probably not going to get a 100% pure product. I can buy it anyway, and probably still be healthy, or go without it.  

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The point is, how are you going to know if a product can cause serious bodily harm until it is tested?  The market place, again, should not be the testing ground for medicinal products, making medicinal claims.  What is the down side?  Why are you more concerned about the wealth of herbal companies than for the safety and protection against fraud of consumers? 

See above. I don't think most CBD oil products make health claims. They really aren't allowed to.  A doctor might prescribe it for a certain condition, and he/she is allowed to do that. Sometimes they prescribe vitamins. Now how are you going to regulate vitamins for health claims? I mean really. I just want the bottle to contain what it says. That is what I have no problem regulating or testing. I don't like the idea of government playing daddy tho, and saying I can't have that because there is no proof it will help your cancer. So, I see a different side of the coin than you. I think I am a big boy, and I accept certain risks that a product won't help. As long as it won't hurt me, I accept that risk. If it has the risk of doing substantial physical harm, then a prescription or drug approval process may be warranted. Otherwise to get some government agency involved in an approval process is a hugely expensive, and I believe impractical requirement. It would kill the supplement industry. Just remember next time you buy extra virgin olive oil, you are probably getting swindled.