The beginning of the priesthood/temple ban

[Exiled]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You might try listening to the Brethren on that score.  Might help you make some marginal gains in your knowledge deficit:

Elder Dale G. and Sister Renlund: “4 Ways Women Exercise Priesthood Power and Authority,” Mar 8, 2018, excerpted from their recent book The Melchizedek Priesthood,  online at http://www.ldsliving.com/Elder-Renlund-4-Ways-Women-Exercise-Priesthood-Power-and-Authority/s/87931 .  They explain how that works in detail, and they quote Elder Dallin Oaks:

See also Wendy Ulrich, “5 Ways Women Are Already Given Priesthood Authority & Officiate in Priesthood Ordinances in the Church,” FairMormon Conference address, online at http://www.ldsliving.com/5-Ways-Women-Are-Already-Given-Priesthood-Authority-Officiate-in-Priesthood-Ordinances-in-the-Church/s/83386 .

You might want to ask President Emma Smith that question on the other side of the veil, because back in her day the sisters of the Relief Society were given authority by Joseph Smith to wash, anoint, and bless the sick.  Elizabeth Ann Whitney, “Early Relief Society Blessings: Great Blessings Await the Faithful of the Relief Society,” Women’s Exponent 7/91:26 = Research Report, 1/5 (Mar-Apr 1990):215.; Linda King Newell, “The Historical Relationship of Mormon Women and Priesthood,” Dialogue, 18/3 (Spring 1978):21-32, online at https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V18N03_23.pdf .  Do you have any idea which ordinances women perform in the temple?

So, why not just make it official and give them the priesthood if women are supposedly doing these things already?

[Guest]

9 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

More than that though.  Priesthood aside there have always been the chosen.  Israel entering into the promised land, regardless who was already living there.  Esau vs Jacob.  Birthright and patriarchal blessings.  Ephraim favored over his brother and uncles descendants.

The very existence of an exclusionary  Church of the Firstborn ordained Kings, Queens. And joint heirs.

And most of all, Christ.  Who was chosen in the councils of heaven as a premortal spirit to be given all the father has in exchange for the ultimate sacrifice.  (And yet some still don't think our choices, actions, and obedience in premortality impact our blessings here).

God has always had his favorites.

Not sure about favorites, as foreordination is based on the fact that God knows all things past, present, future. But these issues (I believe) that beyond, or on the other side of the veil, all will enjoy all the blessing of heaven, provided they seek them. Which is the driving force for "Temple Work". All will be given the chance to accept, (or reject) and know Jesus Christ as their Savior, save the "sons of perdition". But, the Priesthood is a calling of service, not a calling of domination, or favoritism. A calling of discipleship, to all, no matter their birthright, it is a calling that allows to us be servants, not masters. I understand the teachings and doctrines, so I do not need instruction only. However I do desire understanding and not pity, and a desire to be understood and a desire for common ground. I live, and used to work around those who cannot seem to ever let go of prejudice, and a feeling that they are the only chosen. A world where so many were once killed, Churches bombed, burnt down, all in the name of both hate and incorrect teaching using religion and belief that God did not view many as the children of God. There are many that do not, nor ever lived in the world of segregation in which I was raised and still call home. My final house is on a street and community that is almost exclusively African-American. It is a family of incredible integrity, a family I have known for 30+ years. When I saw the address if a house we saw on line, I knew where it was because the name of the street bares their name. My friends and family don't get it. It has others families on the street, but I feel safe, completely. Now one of my neighbor is a member of the Church. 

 

[Tacenda]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You might try listening to the Brethren on that score.  Might help you make some marginal gains in your knowledge deficit:

Elder Dale G. and Sister Renlund: “4 Ways Women Exercise Priesthood Power and Authority,” Mar 8, 2018, excerpted from their recent book The Melchizedek Priesthood,  online at http://www.ldsliving.com/Elder-Renlund-4-Ways-Women-Exercise-Priesthood-Power-and-Authority/s/87931 .  They explain how that works in detail, and they quote Elder Dallin Oaks:

See also Wendy Ulrich, “5 Ways Women Are Already Given Priesthood Authority & Officiate in Priesthood Ordinances in the Church,” FairMormon Conference address, online at http://www.ldsliving.com/5-Ways-Women-Are-Already-Given-Priesthood-Authority-Officiate-in-Priesthood-Ordinances-in-the-Church/s/83386 .

You might want to ask President Emma Smith that question on the other side of the veil, because back in her day the sisters of the Relief Society were given authority by Joseph Smith to wash, anoint, and bless the sick.  Elizabeth Ann Whitney, “Early Relief Society Blessings: Great Blessings Await the Faithful of the Relief Society,” Women’s Exponent 7/91:26 = Research Report, 1/5 (Mar-Apr 1990):215.; Linda King Newell, “The Historical Relationship of Mormon Women and Priesthood,” Dialogue, 18/3 (Spring 1978):21-32, online at https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V18N03_23.pdf .  Do you have any idea which ordinances women perform in the temple?

Okay, even worse, the women were able to annoint and bless others. But that has been taken away from women, so has their being able to run their own Relief Society without having to go to the PH for authorization for things. This was their own deal at one time. And their ability to have lessons for cultural etc. Now everything is micromanaged so much and the mantra to obey has sucked a lot of the life the church had at one time. But that can be another topic. As far the women, the church has seemed to go in reverse on some things. 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Exiled said:

So, why not just make it official and give them the priesthood if women are supposedly doing these things already?

They will eventually.  Not sure when or how long till it happens.  But it will.

[Exiled]

33 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

They will eventually.  Not sure when or how long till it happens.  But it will.

Maybe Kate Kelly should agitate again?

[cinepro]

6 minutes ago, Exiled said:

Maybe Kate Kelly should agitate again?

I think she would, but she's still waiting on that laptop.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Okay, even worse, the women were able to annoint and bless others. But that has been taken away from women, so has their being able to run their own Relief Society without having to go to the PH for authorization for things. This was their own deal at one time. And their ability to have lessons for cultural etc. Now everything is micromanaged so much and the mantra to obey has sucked a lot of the life the church had at one time. But that can be another topic. As far the women, the church has seemed to go in reverse on some things. 

While it is true that the Relief Society was once far more independent (and could be again), it is still the best organized and most effective organization in the LDS Church.  At one time, for example, the Relief Society had its own grain silos and donated grain directly even to non-Mormons in need.  Today all such charitable and welfare operations have been centralized into a professional staff within the Presiding Bishop's office.  That is what one must do in order to professionalize operations.

However, women still wash, anoint, bless, etc., as temple ordinance workers.  Those are priesthood functions.

[CMZ]

Women do not need the priesthood conferred upon them in the way men do in order to achieve exaltation. The whole question about "When will women get the priesthood" is tainted by other doctrinal principles being misunderstood. The primary and extremely prevalent misunderstanding is that "the priesthood" is some sort of gift given only to favored people and that when they receive that gift they become even more favored and lauded and that all the people who don't get it just have to either hang their heads in shame until such time as it may be granted unto them or that their only other choice is to be reactionary and protest until such time as their demands are met and they are given it and that the Church while still "true" eventually has to hopefully and finally arrive at the moment where they finally realize that women are equal to men and therefore just as deserving as men to receive the Priesthood and that when women finally have the Priesthood conferred upon them in the same way that men do that women will then finally be able to feel good about themselves as they can now receive praise and adulation for bearing the priesthood. There's a lot of good intent involved with these misunderstandings but they are still misunderstandings.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Exiled said:

So, why not just make it official and give them the priesthood if women are supposedly doing these things already?

Because that would be unnecessary and otiose.  As Bro & Sis Renlund pointed out (and as the other Brethren reiterate):

Quote

. . . women in the Church frequently exercise priesthood power and authority, though they are not ordained to priesthood offices.

Consider four ways in which this is so. . . .

1. through a setting apart by an authorized priesthood holder, women have priesthood authority to use in their callings in their wards and branches throughout the Church. They have all the authority they need to fulfill their callings and stewardships. What authority do they have? As Elder Dallin H. Oaks taught:    

Quote

We are not accustomed to speaking of women having the authority of the priesthood in their Church callings, but what other authority can it be? When a woman . . . is set apart to preach the gospel as a full-time missionary, she is given priesthood authority to perform a priesthood function. The same is true when a woman is set apart to function as an officer or teacher in a Church organization under the direction of one who holds the keys of the priesthood. Whoever functions in an office or calling received from one who holds priesthood keys exercises priesthood authority in performing her or his assigned duties.

2. women gain access to the power and blessings of God through receiving priesthood ordinances and making covenants. Power comes from making and keeping baptismal covenants. Power comes from receiving the Holy Ghost. Power comes from making and keeping temple covenants.

3. faithful women invite the blessings of heaven independent of priesthood ordination. The blessings of God’s total priesthood power and authority are available to LDS women throughout the world. When miracles occur in a woman’s life in the absence of conferred priesthood, she has complied with conditions to be blessed by God’s total priesthood power and authority. Women tap into God’s priesthood power and authority through faith and prayer. 

4.  a woman participates in the fullness of the Melchizedek Priesthood through temple sealing to a worthy Melchizedek Priesthood holder. Exaltation and eternal life in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom are achieved only as the fulness of the priesthood is attained through building and achieving an eternal marriage. 

In other words, since full priesthood is held simultaneously by both men & women, it cannot be atomized.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Exiled said:

Maybe Kate Kelly should agitate again?

More likely she would delay changes, imo.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Calm

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Abinadi. Samuel the Lamanite.

Can't really help you there. There is at least one instance of a prophetess in scripture. 

I interpret that D&C scripture as meaning that all future prophets and revelators will hold the priesthood restored through Joseph Smith, but I guess it could mean something else.

[CMZ]

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Okay, even worse, the women were able to annoint and bless others. But that has been taken away from women, so has their being able to run their own Relief Society without having to go to the PH for authorization for things. This was their own deal at one time. And their ability to have lessons for cultural etc. Now everything is micromanaged so much and the mantra to obey has sucked a lot of the life the church had at one time. But that can be another topic. As far the women, the church has seemed to go in reverse on some things. 

It should be plainly evident by this point that the micromanaging and/or what was perceived as micromanaging is going away. At this point it could be embarrassing to have to expend effort to point out all the evidence of this. I'm making a wild guess that there will be more crucial adjustments coming from President Nelson and the rest of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

Edited May 20, 2018 by CMZ

[Exiled]

5 hours ago, cinepro said:

I think she would, but she's still waiting on that laptop.

Well, maybe some activist should give her that laptop .... and maybe a printer ....

[Exiled]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

More likely she would delay changes, imo.

Is that because she doesn't know how to ask the question? 🤔 She always was precocious.

[Exiled]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Because that would be unnecessary and otiose.  As Bro & Sis Renlund pointed out (and as the other Brethren reiterate):

In other words, since full priesthood is held simultaneously by both men & women, it cannot be atomized.

I love learning new words (otiose). However, if I were your editor, I would perhaps avoid the word? It isn't used that much and maybe seems like it is trying to hard to appeal to authority? Anyway, separate but equal is a hard sell and that seems to be what you are pushing here.

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, Exiled said:

Is that because she doesn't know how to ask the question? 🤔 She always was precocious.

No, because unlike her predecessors, who in my opinion were approaching the inequalities in a more intelligent way by pushing for small, easy changes that had visible impact and over time would likely have gained momentum (though they could have been a bit more careful in their efforts by ensuring what they were protesting against actually existed as was not the case in the push to wear pants to Churchto protest an absurd dress code rule that they assumed existed, but did not), she demanded an all or nothing surrender, which created pushback rather than examination of what inequalities could be fixed and more or less caused the movement to grind to a halt for a few years, imo.

From what I heard a couple of changes that were in the process were halted once she popped up with her demands.  I never really understood why they made her the spokesperson since she was always stepping in it and apparently was never invested unless she was the center of attention, as evidenced by her couldn't be bothered to wear pants one day to Church to show solidarity with the movement prior to OrdainWomen taking the helm and then refusing to contribute to the OrdainWomen book to raise funds for the group after she left because they wouldn't give her control.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Exiled said:

I love learning new words (otiose). However, if I were your editor, I would perhaps avoid the word? It isn't used that much and maybe seems like it is trying to hard to appeal to authority? Anyway, separate but equal is a hard sell and that seems to be what you are pushing here.

It isn't "separate but equal," which sounds like Jim Crow political legalese, but rather a power which may only be exercised in tandem.  Tantamount to speaking of the man and woman as "one flesh."  Thinking atomistically is the same problem Kate Kelly had.

[JLHPROF]

7 hours ago, CMZ said:

Women do not need the priesthood conferred upon them in the way men do in order to achieve exaltation. 

I  agree.  Doesn't mean the Church won't extend ecclesiastical priesthood to them one day, right or wrong to do so.

[CMZ]

33 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I  agree.  Doesn't mean the Church won't extend ecclesiastical priesthood to them one day, right or wrong to do so.

I don't know if it's so much a matter of being "right" or "wrong." I just think the whole conversation is stunted by nearly everyone supposing that conferral of priesthood is God's or the Church's way of showing that men are favored over women.

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Can't really help you there. There is at least one instance of a prophetess in scripture. 

I interpret that D&C scripture as meaning that all future prophets and revelators will hold the priesthood restored through Joseph Smith, but I guess it could mean something else.

It goes to my question, does one have to hold one of the Priesthoods in order to prophesy? If an Abinadi or Samuel the Lamanite showed up and called the Church to repentance, would we give him (or her) the prophet's reward?

Edited May 21, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

They will eventually.  Not sure when or how long till it happens.  But it will.

What evidence to you have of that happening?

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Exiled said:

Anyway, separate but equal is a hard sell and that seems to be what you are pushing here.

Why is this kind of equality important?

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, CMZ said:

I don't know if it's so much a matter of being "right" or "wrong." I just think the whole conversation is stunted by nearly everyone supposing that conferral of priesthood is God's or the Church's way of showing that men are favored over women.

Nearly everyone believes that?

Edited May 21, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

It goes to my question, does one have to hold one of the Priesthoods in order to prophesy? If an Abinadi or Samuel the Lamanite showed up and called the Church to repentance, would we give him (or her) the prophet's reward?

It is obvious from the scriptures that the priesthood is not required to prophesy unless the prophetesses mentioned (at least five "good" ones and a few not so good) had the priesthood conferred upon them without scriptural record. I am not sure that Abinadi and Samuel the Lamanite did not hold the priesthood. I would think that Abinadi may well have had it conferred upon him before he 'went rogue' (as far as the priests of King Noah were concerned). Alma evidently had the priesthood as he was able to perform baptisms and confirm those converts into the church. Samuel the Lamanite was another who may well have had the priesthood conferred upon him. At the time of his ministry the Lamanites had the gospel among themselves as they had become more righteous than the Nephites and had been converted. There just is no scriptural record either way.

Glenn

[Glenn101]

   This thread reminds me a bit of a conversation in another forum about some of the activities in the Old Testament. There are some members of the church are so aghast of the violence that ensued as the Children went into the Promised land, killing everyone, man, woman, and child, at the Lord's command. There are some who have 'studied it out in their own minds" and have concluded that the authors of those scriptures, or maybe the "Deuteronomists"  changed the scriptures "disgracing God to save a prophet (Joshua). Now, that set of events is really uncomfortable with me. ).  We also have the story of the flood and that of Sodom and Gomorrah where God directly caused the death of man, man, woman, and child. But here we are several thousand years removed from those events and if those accounts have been doctored, God has not seen fit to enlighten His children through His prophets, leaving us to flop around in darkness. Absent further revelation it is something that I am going to have to remain uncomfortable with until I get to a place and time where I will be able to know and understand. But I am not going to throw Joshua under the bus (or maybe chariot) because Of my personal abhorrence to killing. That is one of my shelf items.

Glenn