The Demise of Scouting

[The Nehor]

23 minutes ago, longview said:

When you are unable to come to grips with this frightful reality, you give a flippant answer.  It is not just the Hamas doing this, it is happening many places around the world.

There are too many of them and I'm just an old man.  However it would be wise to slow down the moslem invasions in Canada, US and Europe.  Ban sharia law, it is barbaric.

You want to repeal/ban a nonexistent law?

[longview]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

You want to repeal/ban a nonexistent law?

You deny the existence of Sharia?  It is practised in America and Europe as well as moslem nations:

Sharia law is the law of Islam. The Sharia (also spelled Shari'a or Shariah) law is cast from the words of Muhammad, called "hadith," his actions, called "sunnah," and the Quran, which he dictated. The Sharia law itself cannot be altered but its interpretation, called "fiqh," by muftis (Islamic jurists) is given some latitude.

As a legal system, the Sharia law is exceptionally broad. While other legal codes regulate public behavior, the Sharia law regulates public behavior, private behavior, and even private beliefs. Compared to other legal codes, the Sharia law also prioritizes punishment over rehabilitation and favors corporal and capital punishments over incarceration. Of all legal systems in the world today, the Sharia law is the most intrusive and restrictive, especially against women. According to the Sharia law (see links for details):

• Theft is punishable by amputation of the hands (Quran 5:38).
• Criticizing or denying any part of the Quran is punishable by death.
• Criticizing Muhammad or denying that he is a prophet is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Allah is punishable by death (see Allah moon god).
• A Muslim who becomes a non-Muslim is punishable by death (See Compulsion).
• A non-Muslim who leads a Muslim away from Islam is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim man who marries a Muslim woman is punishable by death.
• A woman or girl who has been raped cannot testify in court against her rapist(s).
• Testimonies of 4 male witnesses are required to prove rape of a female (Quran 24:13).
• A woman or girl who alleges rape without producing 4 male witnesses is guilty of adultery.
• A woman or girl found guilty of adultery is punishable by death (see "Islamophobia").
• A male convicted of rape can have his conviction dismissed by marrying his victim.
• Muslim men have sexual rights to any woman/girl not wearing the Hijab (see Taharrush).
• A woman can have 1 husband, who can have up to 4 wives; Muhammad can have more.
• A man can marry an infant girl and consummate the marriage when she is 9 years old.
• Girls' clitoris should be cut (Muhammad's words, Book 41, Kitab Al-Adab, Hadith 5251).
• A man can beat his wife for insubordination (see Quran 4:34 and Religion of Peace).
• A man can unilaterally divorce his wife; a wife needs her husband's consent to divorce.
• A divorced wife loses custody of all children over 6 years of age or when they exceed it.
• A woman's testimony in court, allowed in property cases, carries ½ the weight of a man's.
• A female heir inherits half of what a male heir inherits (see Mathematics in Quran).
• A woman cannot speak alone to a man who is not her husband or relative.
• Meat to eat must come from animals that have been sacrificed to Allah - i.e., be "Halal."
• Muslims should engage in Taqiyya and lie to non-Muslims to advance Islam.

[jana at jade house]

On 4/23/2018 at 11:41 PM, bluebell said:

So scouts and the church are not at all connected in the UK?

Scouting is not a church related activity in the Netherlands either.  The program is co-ed for some age groups,  the activities are not badge and rank based, it is not uncommon for a child to begin at the youngest group and grow up to remain a leader in their turn.  My Boy just retired at 25 as a totally GIRLS from 8 to 11 leader. He was specially revered.  He is about to begin his Masters....so now he is part of the adult group that's inactive.  While I wish he was an Eagle and Order of the Arrow like his older brother, the socialization, experience and grounding the Scouting program here gave our Boy who has a form of autism helped to form the wonderful young independent adult he is today.  No one here gets wound up about what gender a Scout is.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, longview said:

You deny the existence of Sharia?  It is practised in America and Europe as well as moslem nations:

Sharia law is the law of Islam. The Sharia (also spelled Shari'a or Shariah) law is cast from the words of Muhammad, called "hadith," his actions, called "sunnah," and the Quran, which he dictated. The Sharia law itself cannot be altered but its interpretation, called "fiqh," by muftis (Islamic jurists) is given some latitude.

As a legal system, the Sharia law is exceptionally broad. While other legal codes regulate public behavior, the Sharia law regulates public behavior, private behavior, and even private beliefs. Compared to other legal codes, the Sharia law also prioritizes punishment over rehabilitation and favors corporal and capital punishments over incarceration. Of all legal systems in the world today, the Sharia law is the most intrusive and restrictive, especially against women. According to the Sharia law (see links for details):

• Theft is punishable by amputation of the hands (Quran 5:38).
• Criticizing or denying any part of the Quran is punishable by death.
• Criticizing Muhammad or denying that he is a prophet is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Allah is punishable by death (see Allah moon god).
• A Muslim who becomes a non-Muslim is punishable by death (See Compulsion).
• A non-Muslim who leads a Muslim away from Islam is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim man who marries a Muslim woman is punishable by death.
• A woman or girl who has been raped cannot testify in court against her rapist(s).
• Testimonies of 4 male witnesses are required to prove rape of a female (Quran 24:13).
• A woman or girl who alleges rape without producing 4 male witnesses is guilty of adultery.
• A woman or girl found guilty of adultery is punishable by death (see "Islamophobia").
• A male convicted of rape can have his conviction dismissed by marrying his victim.
• Muslim men have sexual rights to any woman/girl not wearing the Hijab (see Taharrush).
• A woman can have 1 husband, who can have up to 4 wives; Muhammad can have more.
• A man can marry an infant girl and consummate the marriage when she is 9 years old.
• Girls' clitoris should be cut (Muhammad's words, Book 41, Kitab Al-Adab, Hadith 5251).
• A man can beat his wife for insubordination (see Quran 4:34 and Religion of Peace).
• A man can unilaterally divorce his wife; a wife needs her husband's consent to divorce.
• A divorced wife loses custody of all children over 6 years of age or when they exceed it.
• A woman's testimony in court, allowed in property cases, carries ½ the weight of a man's.
• A female heir inherits half of what a male heir inherits (see Mathematics in Quran).
• A woman cannot speak alone to a man who is not her husband or relative.
• Meat to eat must come from animals that have been sacrificed to Allah - i.e., be "Halal."
• Muslims should engage in Taqiyya and lie to non-Muslims to advance Islam.

I am denying that it is a law in the United States and that it even can be banned. Can you walk into a court of law and demand your rights under Sharia law or would you be laughed out of the courtroom like those idiot sovereign citizens? 

It is akin to banning Confucian law. It is meaningless. The idea that a small minority is going to get their law made into the law of the land is a deluded fear fantasy propagated by demagogues following the old Satanic model of stirring up fear and hatred. A nearby mayor where I live is trying to make her political career "fighting" Sharia Law. It is a laughable farce akin to nutty Christians a few decades back fighting all those Satanist holding ritual baby sacrifices that was all widespread but there was no evidence of it.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I am denying that it is a law in the United States and that it even can be banned. Can you walk into a court of law and demand your rights under Sharia law or would you be laughed out of the courtroom like those idiot sovereign citizens? 

It is akin to banning Confucian law. It is meaningless. The idea that a small minority is going to get their law made into the law of the land is a deluded fear fantasy propagated by demagogues following the old Satanic model of stirring up fear and hatred. A nearby mayor where I live is trying to make her political career "fighting" Sharia Law. It is a laughable farce akin to nutty Christians a few decades back fighting all those Satanist holding ritual baby sacrifices that was all widespread but there was no evidence of it.

I totally agree.  And I find that when Christians start waving this flag around it brings nothing but contempt for their religious beliefs.

[nuclearfuels]

On 4/25/2018 at 4:04 PM, carbon dioxide said:

I have never been a fan of scouts and the changes recently have only added more reasons to not liking it.  It is perhaps the one calling in the Church that I will refuse.  I don't want to serve in something that I can careless about and now actually sort of despise.

You're not alone, CO2.

I bid good riddance to BSA.

If they weren't puppets of their corporate donors (also fleeing in droves), they wouldn't have made changes that will lose them the 20% of scouts who are LDS.

 

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am denying that it is a law in the United States and that it even can be banned. Can you walk into a court of law and demand your rights under Sharia law or would you be laughed out of the courtroom like those idiot sovereign citizens? 

It is akin to banning Confucian law. It is meaningless. The idea that a small minority is going to get their law made into the law of the land is a deluded fear fantasy propagated by demagogues following the old Satanic model of stirring up fear and hatred. A nearby mayor where I live is trying to make her political career "fighting" Sharia Law. It is a laughable farce akin to nutty Christians a few decades back fighting all those Satanist holding ritual baby sacrifices that was all widespread but there was no evidence of it.

We have a very close friend whose parents were Satanists. In their case it was neither laughable nor a farce. Messed her up really badly. And now her kids too, even with her being a convert and her kids born in the Church. 

[cinepro]

22 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

We have a very close friend whose parents were Satanists. In their case it was neither laughable nor a farce. Messed her up really badly. And now her kids too, even with her being a convert and her kids born in the Church. 

He's referring to the panic in the 1980s where communities all over America were convinced there were satanic cults kidnapping their children and sacrificing them in the woods.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse

Even more interesting is this slide deck for a presentation on the history of accusations against Mormonism for being Satanist, including an overview of the scares in Utah in the 1980s and 90s about Satanists having infiltrated the Church (and Temples!):

Accusations of Satanism Against Mormonism and the Utah Satanic Abuse Scare

(The slide on page 43 showed a picture of the altar at the Temple, so I've edited it).

 

 

[why me]

On 5/4/2018 at 8:06 AM, The Nehor said:

Oh no MUSLIMS!!!!!! What if they BLOWED US UP?!?!?!?!?!

I think that it is interesting that there are muslim scout troops. Interestingly, I am sure that if the troop is sunni, no shia child need apply. And of course it works the same way around. However, their scouting program will keep separating the sexes. The mormons should do the same.

[why me]

On 5/4/2018 at 7:11 AM, Bernard Gui said:

That’s interesting. As of now, GSA does not allow boys to join. Don’t know a out transgender. I don’t see anyone suing Muslim troops to integrate, but I do think LDS groups would be sued. Who knows?

That's right. However, girls can join the boys if they wish or remain with the girl scouts. Devote muslims will continue to separate the sexes. And no feminist will complain. It is interesting how muslims have their own program and most likely, non muslims are most likely not welcome.

Edited May 6, 2018 by why me

[Bernard Gui]

47 minutes ago, why me said:

That's right. However, girls can join the boys if they wish or remain with the girl scouts. Devote muslims will continue to separate the sexes. And no feminist will complain. It is interesting how muslims have their own program and most likely, non muslims are most likely not welcome.

I think the time will shortly come when Muslims will get the same treatment that we LDS are now getting. I'll be interested in seeing the reaction.

[Bernard Gui]

On 5/5/2018 at 3:48 PM, cinepro said:

He's referring to the panic in the 1980s where communities all over America were convinced there were satanic cults kidnapping their children and sacrificing them in the woods.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse

Even more interesting is this slide deck for a presentation on the history of accusations against Mormonism for being Satanist, including an overview of the scares in Utah in the 1980s and 90s about Satanists having infiltrated the Church (and Temples!):

Accusations of Satanism Against Mormonism and the Utah Satanic Abuse Scare

(The slide on page 43 showed a picture of the altar at the Temple, so I've edited it).

Yes. We had a notorious case of that here in eastern Washington. Our friend, however, was truly a victim of Satanist parents and has suffered significantly.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yes. We had a notorious case of that here in eastern Washington. Our friend, however, was truly a victim of Satanist parents and has suffered significantly.

Do you mean the borderline wacko Ayn Rand Objectiivist type that latch on to Lucifer as a Promethean figure or the cultist wannabes who get thrills from worshipping dark powers and a kind of justification for fulfilling every dark impulse. Both can be damaging. I am just curious. If you do not want to share though and I am being intrusive please ignore.

[why me]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I think the time will shortly come when Muslims will get the same treatment that we LDS are now getting. I'll be interested in seeing the reaction.

I doubt it. They will get a free pass. The political correct people tend to let them be. Interestingly, the muslims also tend to be silent on social issues. I have never heard an Imam on television speaking about gender separation, homosexuality, modesty in women etc. They are very low key and it will be the same for their scouting program. Those who are critical are usually called Islamophobic.

Edited May 7, 2018 by why me

[cinepro]

 

21 hours ago, why me said:

I think that it is interesting that there are muslim scout troops. Interestingly, I am sure that if the troop is sunni, no shia child need apply. And of course it works the same way around.

How "sure" about that are you? 

What makes America so great for Sunni and Shiite Muslims

Quote

In America, we have a different story. Sunni and Shiite leaders have come together at the ISNA Convention, one of the largest annual gatherings of American Muslims, agreeing to foster mutual respect and unity and vowing not to let sectarianism divide their communities. In 2014, the Shia-Sunni Alliance of New Jersey issued a joint statement, signed by 28 Muslim organizations, condemning ISIS, the group also known as the Islamic State. Meanwhile, Sunni and Shiite Muslims continue working side by side in Western charities like Islamic Relief and Muslim Youth Helpline, inspired by shared religious values to help victims of trauma, violence and disasters. Sunnis and Shiites continue marrying one another, producing beloved “Sushis” — a term of endearment some Muslims use to describe half-Sunni, half-Shiite children.

 

Edited May 7, 2018 by cinepro

[esodije]

It seems to me that in a couple of years there won’t be a scouting organization for the church to resign ~from~.  All these changes to stay apace of PC sensibilities can’t help but result in dissipation.  Progressives will applaud, but they won’t provide actual support.

[california boy]

17 minutes ago, esodije said:

It seems to me that in a couple of years there won’t be a scouting organization for the church to resign ~from~.  All these changes to stay apace of PC sensibilities can’t help but result in dissipation.  Progressives will applaud, but they won’t provide actual support.

I have to admit I am disappointed at all the judgements of others on this thread. You might want to read what the bsa stated as their reasons for the change before you blame progressives and what is PC. Sometimes organizations evolve in order to survive.  They make choices based on what is best for the organization. Those organizations that can’t or won’t adapt are often the ones that meet their own demise. 

[longview]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

I have to admit I am disappointed at all the judgements of others on this thread. You might want to read what the bsa stated as their reasons for the change before you blame progressives and what is PC. Sometimes organizations evolve in order to survive.  They make choices based on what is best for the organization. Those organizations that can’t or won’t adapt are often the ones that meet their own demise. 

The Bill Clinton administration started putting pressure on BSA by looking for ways to deny use of federal lands for Jamborees and camping.  Progressives were attempting to coerce BSA into changing their policies against having homosexual leaders.  They excoriated the police honor guard as well as the BSA color guard.

June 19th, 2005, 08:12 AM#2

ftshooter 

At the New York Democratic Convention nominating Hillary! to run for U.S Senate, and with President Clinton in attendance, members of the Albany Policy Department Honor Guard were spit on as they carried the flag in the opening ceremony. Delegates about to cast their vote for the first lady called the policemen "Nazis" and "Giuliani's Third Reich." 
These folks weren't like the protestors seen outside the Staples Center in L.A. burning the American flag. They were on the convention floor where access was limited to delegates with official passes.

[RevTestament]

On 5/4/2018 at 8:25 PM, longview said:

You deny the existence of Sharia?  It is practised in America and Europe as well as moslem nations:

Sharia law is the law of Islam. The Sharia (also spelled Shari'a or Shariah) law is cast from the words of Muhammad, called "hadith," his actions, called "sunnah," and the Quran, which he dictated. The Sharia law itself cannot be altered but its interpretation, called "fiqh," by muftis (Islamic jurists) is given some latitude.

As a legal system, the Sharia law is exceptionally broad. While other legal codes regulate public behavior, the Sharia law regulates public behavior, private behavior, and even private beliefs. Compared to other legal codes, the Sharia law also prioritizes punishment over rehabilitation and favors corporal and capital punishments over incarceration. Of all legal systems in the world today, the Sharia law is the most intrusive and restrictive, especially against women. According to the Sharia law (see links for details):

• Theft is punishable by amputation of the hands (Quran 5:38).
• Criticizing or denying any part of the Quran is punishable by death.
• Criticizing Muhammad or denying that he is a prophet is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Allah is punishable by death (see Allah moon god).
• A Muslim who becomes a non-Muslim is punishable by death (See Compulsion).
• A non-Muslim who leads a Muslim away from Islam is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim man who marries a Muslim woman is punishable by death.
• A woman or girl who has been raped cannot testify in court against her rapist(s).
• Testimonies of 4 male witnesses are required to prove rape of a female (Quran 24:13).
• A woman or girl who alleges rape without producing 4 male witnesses is guilty of adultery.
• A woman or girl found guilty of adultery is punishable by death (see "Islamophobia").
• A male convicted of rape can have his conviction dismissed by marrying his victim.
• Muslim men have sexual rights to any woman/girl not wearing the Hijab (see Taharrush).
• A woman can have 1 husband, who can have up to 4 wives; Muhammad can have more.
• A man can marry an infant girl and consummate the marriage when she is 9 years old.
• Girls' clitoris should be cut (Muhammad's words, Book 41, Kitab Al-Adab, Hadith 5251).
• A man can beat his wife for insubordination (see Quran 4:34 and Religion of Peace).
• A man can unilaterally divorce his wife; a wife needs her husband's consent to divorce.
• A divorced wife loses custody of all children over 6 years of age or when they exceed it.
• A woman's testimony in court, allowed in property cases, carries ½ the weight of a man's.
• A female heir inherits half of what a male heir inherits (see Mathematics in Quran).
• A woman cannot speak alone to a man who is not her husband or relative.
• Meat to eat must come from animals that have been sacrificed to Allah - i.e., be "Halal."
• Muslims should engage in Taqiyya and lie to non-Muslims to advance Islam.

This is mostly correect. Taqiyya seems to be more of a Shi'ite thing.

Quote

However it would be wise to slow down the moslem invasions in Canada, US and Europe.  Ban sharia law, it is barbaric.

I believe most Muslims in the United States are actually wonderful people. We have some of the best Muslims in the world. Many came here to get away from barbarism in their own lands, and I welcome them. Arab Muslims can be a bigger issue, and the rapid expansion of Mosque building in the US under the Obama administration seems to have been funded mostly by Arab money. However, there are many sects of Islam, and some are genuinely peaceful people. However, try preaching Christianity in any kind of public gathering in Dearborn, MI, and one's assuredness of the wonders of Islam will most assuredly quickly fade. You seem to realize that Sharia is a huge body of law, and cannot be just banned for citizens of the United States. Many aspects of it are just silly and superstitious - like you must eat with your left hand, because that is what Muhammed did.  Drink camel urine to get well. Dunk a fly in your drink to gain the cure of any diseases it carries, etc. Some of those things we cannot constitutionally ban. However, I believe you are right that there are aspects of Sharia that are barbaric and unconstitutional, and it is those things which we should ban. In fact I believe every Muslim applying for citizenship should be asked if they support such and such, and their citizenship denied if they answer affirmatively. None should be granted citizenship unless they will uphold the US Constitution over Sharia. 

 

[california boy]

3 hours ago, longview said:

The Bill Clinton administration started putting pressure on BSA by looking for ways to deny use of federal lands for Jamborees and camping.  Progressives were attempting to coerce BSA into changing their policies against having homosexual leaders.  They excoriated the police honor guard as well as the BSA color guard.

June 19th, 2005, 08:12 AM#2

ftshooter 

At the New York Democratic Convention nominating Hillary! to run for U.S Senate, and with President Clinton in attendance, members of the Albany Policy Department Honor Guard were spit on as they carried the flag in the opening ceremony. Delegates about to cast their vote for the first lady called the policemen "Nazis" and "Giuliani's Third Reich." 
These folks weren't like the protestors seen outside the Staples Center in L.A. burning the American flag. They were on the convention floor where access was limited to delegates with official passes.

Thank yo for bringing this out in the light of day so that we can discuss some very shameful discrimination practices by both the BSA and the Mormon Church.  

Let's start with a little history.

It took until 1974 before all BSA troops ended discriminating against boys because of their race.

1967 Boy Scouts allow females to be a part of the explorer program.

1978 For the first time. BSA denies gays from becoming a member of their organization.

In 2000, the US Supreme Court rules that the Boy Scouts can bar gay troop leaders because the group has a "constitutional right of expressive association."  This gave BSA the legal right to discriminate against gays because they were a private institution.  But as a private institution that discriminated against gays, federal and state governments across the nation quit subsidizing BSA with government facilities and land at hugely reduced fees.  Discrimination is not a value held by the majority of Americans and their government.  They could discriminate against gays, but the government certainly was not going to subsidize that activity.  (the issue you were referring to) 

In 2003, a California troop was kicked out of scouting for refusing to discriminate against gays.

In 2012, BSA affirmed its position to discriminate against gays sadly in a large part because of Mormon Church threatening to pull all their troops which make up 20% of the membership from scouting.

In 2013, 1,4 million signatures spoke out against the discrimination practice of excluding gays from its troops was delivered to BSA headquarters..

2013 Boy Scouts lift the ban on gays, allowing them to be included in the program despite the Mormon Church threatening to leave BSA

2015 Boy Scouts ends its discriminating against gay leaders.  The Mormon Church releases a statement calling the decision troubling.  Needs to reevaluate its relationship to scouting.

2017 Boy Scouts announce they will include transgender boys

2017 The Mormon Church announces it will withdraw from the Venture and Varsity scouting program.

2018 BSA announces that it will now include females in all of their programs.  

Certainly a long history by both BSA and the Mormon Church sadly plagued with discrimination practices and exclusion.  BSA has made huge progress in recent years correcting their discrimination.  The Mormon Church has used its scouting numbers to try and discourage every single move made to eliminate discrimination.  While the church has made a little progress in ending its discrimination practices, sadly it still lags behind..  

As Martin Luther King said "“The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.”  

 

 

 

 

[why me]

On 5/7/2018 at 9:33 PM, cinepro said:

 

How "sure" about that are you? 

What makes America so great for Sunni and Shiite Muslims

 

I am pretty sure. If you see from the site linked there is no way that shia and sunni can be mixed since both sects teach a different aspect of the muslim faith. They would not attend the same troop school. Muslim scouts is all about islam and how to practice it. It is an extension of their religious faith. There will be no gays in such a scouting troup nor will there be different sects of islam. No shia would want their child to be taught by a sunni.

http://www.muslimscouting.org/religious-emblems/

http://www.muslimscouting.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/2010_Allaho_Akber_CMYK_LoRes.pdf

Reading the above I see no room for moral relativism as it will exist in the scouting program in general. You can enlarge the second link. I can assure that no gay or trans organization will challenge the islamic/muslim scouting objective in the USA. And the ALCU will be silent.

By the way, I think that the muslim scouting program stresses religious objectives a little too much. But I have to admire them. They haven't succumbed to western moral decline as the scouting program has done. The christian tradition is more or less dead in the general scouting program. I don't blame the muslims for having their own scouting program at all.

The following below does not look like a mixed troop at all. What Mosque is it? Shia or Sunni? learning Arabic? Iran which is shia is a persian language country.

http://leaderobserver.com/bookmark/13197914-Muslim-Boy-Scout-troop-thrives-in-Astoria#ixzz3lJ68P2Ff

Edited May 8, 2018 by why me

[why me]

20 hours ago, california boy said:

I have to admit I am disappointed at all the judgements of others on this thread. You might want to read what the bsa stated as their reasons for the change before you blame progressives and what is PC. Sometimes organizations evolve in order to survive.  They make choices based on what is best for the organization. Those organizations that can’t or won’t adapt are often the ones that meet their own demise. 

What do you think of the muslim scouting program that I just linked to?

http://www.muslimscouting.org/religious-emblems/

http://www.muslimscouting.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/2010_Allaho_Akber_CMYK_LoRes.pdf

I see no adaptation and they will get stronger. I admire their determination in focusing on their faith in their scout program. Would you feel comfortable in placing your gay or lesbian child in a muslim scouting program if you were muslim? Would you get the ALCU to challenge them? Would you begin a letter campaign to get them to change their religious policies in the scouting program?

Edited May 8, 2018 by why me

[longview]

11 hours ago, california boy said:

1978 For the first time. BSA denies gays from becoming a member of their organization.

Was it when they started to agitate for "acceptance" of homosexual lifestyle for the purpose of social engineering the BSA?  I would think prior to that time, the cultural norm was for people to be discreet about SSA and being careful with encouraging good role models for the youth.

11 hours ago, california boy said:

In 2000, the US Supreme Court rules that the Boy Scouts can bar gay troop leaders because the group has a "constitutional right of expressive association."  This gave BSA the legal right to discriminate against gays because they were a private institution.  But as a private institution that discriminated against gays, federal and state governments across the nation quit subsidizing BSA with government facilities and land at hugely reduced fees.  Discrimination is not a value held by the majority of Americans and their government.  They could discriminate against gays, but the government certainly was not going to subsidize that activity.  (the issue you were referring to) 

The constitutional right of expressive association does not always equate to discrimination.  And not all discrimination is necessarily bad.  The BSA (of yesteryear) was not interested in discriminating, only to have a straightforward and uplifting experience for the troops.  This was being in harmony with the sponsoring churches and moral organizations.  There was no need for agitation and social engineering.  Government public schools already have coercive power over the minds of innocent children.  Why force monolithic group think over every organization and every level of society?

Another related issue is Planned Parenthood working in close cooperation with school districts are now reaching down to Kindergarten level to desensitize little ones to sexual practises and pornographic depictions.  For goodness sakes!  Give families a break.

There is a good reason for separation of church and state.  The coercive power of the STATE cannot be used to favor one church over other churches.  NOT, as the progressives would claim, to keep religious expressions and influence out of the public square, out of governmental institutions (including government run public schools).

There is NO violation of the Constitution for use of vouchers so parents can send THEIR children to private and/or charter schools of THEIR choice (whether they be religious, technical, artistic, whatever).  It is NOT the government that is choosing or funding school choice, it is the parents' (separate from each other) that decide where THEIR children will go.  It is the taxpayers that decide, NOT the government.  It was a terrible tragedy that Obama upon coming into office in 2009 pre-emptorially rescinded the voucher program for poor black families in the Washington DC area.  It was a crying shame for them.  They really appreciated the quality they were getting from the charter schools.  Public schools in the inner cities are a unmitigated disaster!

At the same time, society saw to it that churches NOT be taxed by the government so that good works of the churches would NOT be impeded. If there were an occasional "Westboro Baptist Church" the government need NOT get involved because it would be more likely such organizations will experience a natural decline in membership sooner than later.  Likewise, government should allow charitable organizations (YES, BSA was one though sadly it may now decrease in providing good outcomes) to use lands, parks, facilities for nominal fees.  There is NO need for government to impose "affirmative action guidelines", burdensome reporting requirements, political correct coercions, etc on voluntary organizations.

[longview]

15 hours ago, RevTestament said:

- - - You seem to realize that Sharia is a huge body of law, and cannot be just banned for citizens of the United States. - - -

Yes, as big as the Koran plus many traditions thrown in.  But there are elements in western governments that are too willing to allow sharia practises to supercede the protections of the Constitution.  Such as honor killings, FGM, subjugation of females and homosexuals, etc.  Which simply cannot be allowed.

(Note:   I had a lengthier response to Nehor on this issue that was censored perhaps due to my needlessly graphic description of the process of FGM)

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, longview said:

(Note:   I had a lengthier response to Nehor on this issue that was censored perhaps due to my needlessly graphic description of the process of FGM)

Maybe you should have included some graphic descriptions of MGM; so few people in your part of the world seem to be bothered by that...

Edited May 9, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan