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Church to Celebrate 40 years since lifting the ban. He is what I hope happens.


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51 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Not sure we're getting anywhere close to a productive or interesting back and forth.  I have no clue what beatitude you think supports your idea that apologies are not scriptural.  Lots of people had a hard time with the Elder Oaks statement a couple years ago about the word apology not being in scripture as well.  I find the entire gospel message supportive of the whole idea of apologizing and making things better wherever possible.  

To try and extract some kind of technical argument out of a core gospel ideal is a problem with religion.  Religion should not be about technicalities and legalistic interpretations, its should be about about loving, serving, doing good and promoting peace.  

The “whole idea” of apologizing is not specific enough for discussing religious and ecclesiastical applications, which is why I asked you to provide scriptural support for your argument that the Church should apologize. You can’t provide it, even though you claim that “the entire gospel message” supports it.

Church policies are basically technical in nature, a practical application of religious principles. For such a policy to be against someone, it needs to stipulate her removal from the community. Governor Ford’s extermination order, for example, was against Mormons or anti-Mormon, ridding them from the State. Some of the Old Testament massacres might be seen in the same way. But LDS membership policies never required priesthood office or ordinances beyond baptism and confirmation for formal inclusion in the community, and the priesthood policies never expelled members from the society.

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On 4/20/2018 at 11:51 AM, bluebell said:

We weren't the least liked among unaffiliated.  And the poll does not say that we are thought of in a negative light.  It says that out of the roughly 3,000 people they surveyed, we were thought of in a neutral light.

You said "if God did institute these doctrines, then it has put the church in very unfavorable light with the majority of Americans.  Kind of an odd plan for getting your children to find and embrace His church."  I'm asking if you have any evidence support your assertion that it is odd for God to act in such a way.  

 

 

Are you honestly telling me that you can look at that poll and tell me when the Mormon church is compared with other christian churches in this country, that it comes out on top?  Or even in the middle?  Or would you agree with me that the church comes out at the bottom of all Christian churches.  Just wondering how far you are willing to stretch the findings of this poll.

Well it seems like the plan of happiness should look like a good choice for people to make.  I find it odd that God would put policies in place that would repel people from wanting to learn more.  For example, I have no interest in becoming a member of the KKK.  They may teach good christian values, but their racist and anti gay policies totally turn me off.  

Poster removed

 

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2 hours ago, california boy said:

Are you honestly telling me that you can look at that poll and tell me when the Mormon church is compared with other christian churches in this country, that it comes out on top?  Or even in the middle?  Or would you agree with me that the church comes out at the bottom of all Christian churches.  Just wondering how far you are willing to stretch the findings of this poll.

Well it seems like the plan of happiness should look like a good choice for people to make.  I find it odd that God would put policies in place that would repel people from wanting to learn more.  For example, I have no interest in becoming a member of the KKK.  They may teach good christian values, but their racist and anti gay policies totally turn me off.  

 

There is a huge difference between disliking something and being indifferent or neutral to it.  I believe Bluebell was pointing that out.  If people don't know much about us, they may just be giving us neutral/don't know type ratings.

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4 hours ago, california boy said:

Are you honestly telling me that you can look at that poll and tell me when the Mormon church is compared with other christian churches in this country, that it comes out on top?  

No i'm not saying that the Mormon church comes out on top.  

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Or even in the middle?  

It is in the middle.  Out of a scale of 100 the Mormon church got a 54.  

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Or would you agree with me that the church comes out at the bottom of all Christian churches.  Just wondering how far you are willing to stretch the findings of this poll.

Why would I agree with your faulty reading of the poll?  Yes, it's the bottom of the churches but did you read the poll to see what that even means.  The survey says that ratings of 48-50 is a neutral rating.  Not negative, neutral (and the church is at a 54).

The survey also said-

Across the board, Americans express warmer feelings toward religious groups when they are personally familiar with someone in the group, consistent with findings from the June 2014 survey. Those who do not know anyone who is Buddhist, for example, give Buddhists an average rating of 56 degrees on the feeling thermometer, compared with a much warmer 75 among those who do know a Buddhist. People who do not know atheists or Muslims rate these groups on the colder side of the scale, but those who do know someone who is an atheist or a Muslim rate these groups on the warmer side of 50.

A large majority of Americans (86%) say they personally know someone who is Catholic, and three-quarters say they know someone who does not believe in or practice any religion. Roughly six-in-ten U.S. adults know someone who is Jewish, atheist, a mainline Protestant or an evangelical Christian. Comparatively, seven-in-ten Americans said they knew an evangelical Christian in June 2014.

Fewer than half of Americans say they personally know a Mormon (43%) or a Muslim (45%), though more Americans say they know a Muslim today than said this in June of 2014 (38%). Smaller shares say they know someone who is Buddhist (23%) or Hindu (22%).

Out of the two of us, I don't feel like I'm the one who is trying to stretch the findings of the poll.

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Well it seems like the plan of happiness should look like a good choice for people to make.  I find it odd that God would put policies in place that would repel people from wanting to learn more.  For example, I have no interest in becoming a member of the KKK.  They may teach good christian values, but their racist and anti gay policies totally turn me off.

So you have no evidence to support the assertion that God should agree with you, it's just your opinion.  O.k., that's all I was wondering.

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On April 20, 2018 at 2:08 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

Ok. I never saw that post. 

I suppose what he is getting at is that the truthfulness and divinity of the Church exists in theory independent of any disagreement you or I might have about this or that point. 

And I agree with his view and yours. Knowing myself, in the Army at the time where silly issues of racism have no place, I wonder if I would have ever listen. Well prior to 1978, that is. Believe it or not, a story appeared int the "Stars and Stipes", about the change, something that was new in my mind when I first meet the missionaries on 1/5/79.

BTW, "Stars and Stripes" is a military newspaper that gives news of what is happening Stateside. 

Edited by Bill "Papa" Lee
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5 hours ago, california boy said:

Well it seems like the plan of happiness should look like a good choice for people to make.  I find it odd that God would put policies in place that would repel people from wanting to learn more.  For example, I have no interest in becoming a member of the KKK.  They may teach good christian values, but their racist and anti gay policies totally turn me off.  

 

Part of me agrees with you but God does not seem to favor the good PR approach. Throughout history his followers often end up in prison or exiled or under threat of death or actual death. As these things go this generation has it pretty nice and we are more liked than usual. It probably will not last. :( 

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3 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

And I agree with his view and yours. Knowing myself, in the Army at the time where silly issues of racism have no place, I wonder if I would have ever listen. Well prior to 1978, that is. Believe it or not, a story appeared int the "Stars and Stipes", about the change, something that was new in my mind when I first meet the missionaries on 1/5/79.

It was a great day when that news was reported. I will always remember where I was and what I was doing when I heard it. 

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On ‎4‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 6:45 PM, bluebell said:

No i'm not saying that the Mormon church comes out on top.  

It is in the middle.  Out of a scale of 100 the Mormon church got a 54.  

Why would I agree with your faulty reading of the poll?  Yes, it's the bottom of the churches but did you read the poll to see what that even means.  The survey says that ratings of 48-50 is a neutral rating.  Not negative, neutral (and the church is at a 54).

The survey also said-

Across the board, Americans express warmer feelings toward religious groups when they are personally familiar with someone in the group, consistent with findings from the June 2014 survey. Those who do not know anyone who is Buddhist, for example, give Buddhists an average rating of 56 degrees on the feeling thermometer, compared with a much warmer 75 among those who do know a Buddhist. People who do not know atheists or Muslims rate these groups on the colder side of the scale, but those who do know someone who is an atheist or a Muslim rate these groups on the warmer side of 50.

A large majority of Americans (86%) say they personally know someone who is Catholic, and three-quarters say they know someone who does not believe in or practice any religion. Roughly six-in-ten U.S. adults know someone who is Jewish, atheist, a mainline Protestant or an evangelical Christian. Comparatively, seven-in-ten Americans said they knew an evangelical Christian in June 2014.

Fewer than half of Americans say they personally know a Mormon (43%) or a Muslim (45%), though more Americans say they know a Muslim today than said this in June of 2014 (38%). Smaller shares say they know someone who is Buddhist (23%) or Hindu (22%).

Out of the two of us, I don't feel like I'm the one who is trying to stretch the findings of the poll.

So you have no evidence to support the assertion that God should agree with you, it's just your opinion.  O.k., that's all I was wondering.

Hey Bluebell, I just wanted to point out since it appears CB was taken out of the thread for disagreeing, he indicated that Mormons were on the bottom of the list of those who are Christian ("the Mormon church is the least liked among all Christian churches in America according to Pew study.").  That's not the middle, as you allege.  It seems obvious you have spoken past his point to argue that since Mormons got a score in the middle of 1-100 that they are not the bottom of the list but are in the middle.  I think he gets that the conclusion reached that those who are familiar with others also view the group more favorably.  But that was really beside his point.  

I know buttin' in and trying to help disagreements often doesn't help, but I'm trying.  

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On ‎4‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 12:57 PM, bluebell said:

That promise appears in more than just the bible and applies to all of God's children, not just those living on the earth at a certain time.  Even right now, when more people probably know about Christianity than have ever known in the history of the earth, the majority reject it.  

Can you help explain how the biblical passage in Matthew, even including the other alluded to passages, applies to all of those who have ever lived?  Thanks.

It's interesting that your view of "the majority reject it" is being brought up here when the discussion was about God not caring what "non-believers" think of his commandments.  Which commandments?  Do non-believers not love one another?  Or are you speaking to things specific to the LDS Church?  I'm sad to think members might think God doesn't care what "non-believers" think about his commandments, if they are important.  That seems like a pretty sad view of God, but certainly we each have our own special view of God.  

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On 19/04/2018 at 12:37 AM, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

The Church is going to celebrate the lifting of the Priesthood Ban, for African men and women, which allowed them and their spouses to enter into the Temple, and receive their ordinances. Some years back the Church issue a letter that listed a number of issues as to why there was such a ban. In the letter it spoke of a few things, but also commented "social issues of that time" as one factor. I joined the Church less than a year after the ban was lifted. I fear that if that had still been policy, I might have never joined.

I don't think the modern LDS Church has come to grips with the LDS Church of the past teaching that the ban
was actually a revelation from God..

But anyways ... would you share some clips of how the LDS Church celebrated in 1978?

Thanks,
Jim

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On 4/19/2018 at 6:40 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

I think one of the obvious consequences was to restrict where the Church proselyted and therefore where it established footholds and grew for the decades the policy was in place. Would you agree that it overwhelmingly kept us out of Africa? And at the same time, it limited the Church's presence in the 'inner city' of many American metropolitan areas. Does the Lord ever have purposes in slowing or limiting the growth of His church in any way? In the email that I mentioned earlier, Pres Packer was reported as having referred to Jacob 5 as one of the purposes He felt the Lord had had for keeping the Church out of Africa for so long.

Earlier you mentioned the impossibility of implementing race-based policies because the 'mechanics' break down. You're absolutely correct. And having a personal opportunity to learn that lesson is priceless. To take just one example, what do you think Church leaders, full-time missionaries who served there, and others learnt about race as a 'biological' construct as they laboured in Brazil? I think my personal hatred for dividing people into 'races' stems from my little boy days in the Church when I learnt that my favourite Sunday school teacher couldn't be married to her husband in the temple. (He was eligible for temple blessings at the time, but she wasn't.)

I know there are still some pockets of racism in the Church. I had the opportunity some years ago to be in the SLC Temple for the endowment/sealing of some of my West Indian friends, and I overheard one of the workers say something terrible about a 'bunch of darkies' on their way down to the change room. I had literally never heard anyone in the Church talk like that before, and it was like a kick to the gut. I actually wanted to take my friends and go to another temple. I certainly didn't want the brother who spoke like that to have any part in performing sacred ordinances for people I love dearly. It was painful. But in retrospect, the incongruity of that with all my other experiences in the Church, past and present, underscores how thoroughly we seem to have learnt our lessons about 'race'.

I have two housemates. All three of us are different races. Where I live that's still an odd situation ... except in the Church. Some years back, one of my Church brothers and I had a regular monthly temple trip together. On one of our visits, I introduced him to my favourite Chinese hole-in-the-wall, where I had been eating for many years. On our first night, the woman who owned the place said, 'Oh, you have brought one of your friends'. I replied, 'He's not my friend; he's my brother'. She looked at him, and then at me, back at him, and again at me ... and walked away shaking her head. We actually laughed at loud. My dear brother said, 'She doesn't get it'. And she didn't. Based on our appearances, she understood that we could be friends, but she just couldn't see how we could be brothers. And that's an important distinction.

When I worked in the West Indies, there was literally a single space anywhere on the island where all races mingled freely. Churches were segregated by colour. I taught at a school where students self-segregated at lunchtime. But in our little branch chapel, black, brown and white mixed so thoroughly that it took me weeks to figure out which children belonged to whom.

Some of our Christian brothers talk about the impossibility of fully keeping the Law of Moses as one of its most instructional purposes. I don't think they're wrong, and I personally see the Church's race-based policy as serving a similar educative function.

I have more, but that's a start. And I've certainly been influenced by my current West African housemate and also a previous one, both of whom are adult converts to the Church, one baptised in Africa, and one here.

Hi Hamba,

With planting season here, I have been extra busy this week and haven't had time to participate in the thread.  But, I wanted to say that I appreciate you taking the time to give a thoughtful response to my question.  It's interesting to see the variety of thoughts on this issue.

 

-cacheman

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1 hour ago, cacheman said:

Hi Hamba,

With planting season here, I have been extra busy this week and haven't had time to participate in the thread.  But, I wanted to say that I appreciate you taking the time to give a thoughtful response to my question.  It's interesting to see the variety of thoughts on this issue.

 

-cacheman

Are you a farmer?

I was reared on a farm. Never had much inclination to pursue it as a livelihood. Until recently that is. Sometimes, I long for the agrarian lifestyle.

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On 4/20/2018 at 7:32 PM, The Nehor said:

Part of me agrees with you but God does not seem to favor the good PR approach. Throughout history his followers often end up in prison or exiled or under threat of death or actual death. As these things go this generation has it pretty nice and we are more liked than usual. It probably will not last. :( 

It has already started to wane since, say, the mid-1990s.

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43 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Are you a farmer?

I was reared on a farm. Never had much inclination to pursue it as a livelihood. Until recently that is. Sometimes, I long for the agrarian lifestyle.

I have a farm,  but it's my side gig for now.  I've been a plant guy my whole life.  Can't get enough of it! 

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