They just don't make miracles like they used to

[Exiled]

6 hours ago, CMZ said:

6 hours ago, CMZ said:

Hmm, this seems like a response to something I didn't actually say.

You claim that God is the source for medical science and are giving him all the credit from the beginning. The scientists' work is therefore put in the backseat to God, because all glory for success is his. Doesn't this seem pretty selfish? I don't think God is this way, wanting to hog all the glory for what man does.

So, is this how you act with your own children? You trained them and equipped them to go out in the world. So, naturally all of their successes are really yours, right? Or maybe because God needs to take credit for your training success as well, he takes credit for your children's successes?

[bluebell]

23 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I think you're getting confused between past and present. My present state of faith is much different than my past state. My present state of exercising faith in healings is non-existent because of the experiences I've had. I experimented upon the word and found no good fruit regarding physical healing. Therefore I choose not to exercise faith in that regard. I don't believe it any more. But I'm acknowledging that IF I witnessed a good fruit I'd be willing to give it renewed consideration. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

I agree.  From a secular point of view it is very reasonable.

[JAHS]

9 hours ago, Exiled said:

I'm talking about viewing occurrences where priesthood blessings are involved. One needs to have a view imposed on one, by religionists, where the times when the blessing works, it is priesthood power in action and when it doesn't work, God didn't want it to work or the priesthood holder was at fault somehow. This way God is never wrong, by after the fact justification, regardless of what really happened.

Yeah so?  That's the way it has always worked. However priesthood blessings always "work" whether the person is physically healed or not. 
"And the elders of the church, two or more, shall be called, and shall pray for and alay their hands upon them in my name;
and if they die they shall die unto me, and if they live they shall live unto me." (D&C 42: 44)
So in a way the recipient of the blessing still wins either way.

 

[CMZ]

9 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

Just to clarify, you’re now agreeing that the LDS Priesthood isn’t the determining factor? You’re saying anyone who has faith they will be healed, will be healed?

Priesthood is a factor, faith of different individuals is a factor, God's will is a factor, and there could very well be others.

[CMZ]

2 hours ago, Exiled said:

You claim that God is the source for medical science and are giving him all the credit from the beginning. The scientists' work is therefore put in the backseat to God, because all glory for success is his. Doesn't this seem pretty selfish? I don't think God is this way, wanting to hog all the glory for what man does.

So, is this how you act with your own children? You trained them and equipped them to go out in the world. So, naturally all of their successes are really yours, right? Or maybe because God needs to take credit for your training success as well, he takes credit for your children's successes?

I don't have time to unravel all the twisting going on here. God gets credit and so do individuals. I don't have children yet but when I do, no, I would not take credit for every single thing they do. It's almost kind of embarrassing to be discussing this since I never said that humankind gets no credit whatsoever for advances in medical science. The awesome thing here, Exiled, is that nobody is forcing you to believe. If you want you can disbelieve everything and hector constantly those who believe God plays a role in things too. You absolutely have the right to do it. It's unlikely that anyone here will ever mount such an overwhelmingly potent intellectual argument for the existence of God or the truthfulness of the Church or whatever that you will be unable to disbelieve. That's actually not how it works. It's been set up so that there will appear to be some evidence for either side and you receiving a personal revelation eventually about it will help you see things better. Then you will have an independent witness so that you will not be reliant on anyone else for your knowledge of the truth. An independent witness to yourself. That's a great gift to have. Then all the talk about how we're stuck having to blindly believe what the general authorities in Salt Lake say, those ones who supposedly live off of all our tithing money, and how our only recourse to get out from under their influence is to talk about how much we disbelieve them, will fade away. When we recognize the prophets as prophets but have our own personal testimony then we are not 100% dependent on them. If you're going to say, "Well, I haven't received one yet," then, yeah, I get it; sometimes it takes a while. Sometimes it takes quite a while. Everyone has their own journey. If you haven't tried, then, hey, you have that choice too.

Edited April 22, 2018 by CMZ

[Exiled]

13 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Yeah so?  That's the way it has always worked. However priesthood blessings always "work" whether the person is physically healed or not. 
"And the elders of the church, two or more, shall be called, and shall pray for and alay their hands upon them in my name;
and if they die they shall die unto me, and if they live they shall live unto me." (D&C 42: 44)
So in a way the recipient of the blessing still wins either way.

 

So, what is the difference if one gets a priesthood blessing or if one prays or does nothing?  The outcome will always be the same, regardless, that of God's will, right?  So, is the point of the act to assuage the faithless?  If one has the faith not to be healed, then one need not ask for a blessing because it doesn't matter if the person is healed or not.  Also, the person giving the blessing is merely putting on an act for the faithless because the faith not to be healed combined with the faith to be healed renders the act a nullity for the faithful. So, why even waste one's time with this?  Better yet, why not just admit that priesthood blessings are a relic from the pre-science era?  Maybe E. Bednar didn't think this through?  Maybe he wanted a convenient way to stop people from bothering the other g.a.'s and him for blessings?  Or maybe the faith not to be healed is a unintended confession of pointless ritual?

[JAHS]

11 hours ago, Exiled said:

I guess we can always credit success to God, but that seems to not be how it works, or should work. If a scientist works and studies and comes up with a discovery, is it really God or religionists stealing credit for God where they shouldn't? I would think God would want to credit his children for their successes and not hog all the glory. However, religionists seem to want God to do this. They want a God that takes all the credit for anything good and blame man for the failures. Is this how you act with your children?

President Hinckley said:
"We are indebted to the dedicated men and women of science and medicine who have conquered so much of disease, who have mitigated pain, who have stayed the hand of death. We cannot say enough of gratitude for them. Yet they are the first to admit the limitations of their knowledge and the imperfection of their skills in dealing with many matters of life and death."
I am a scientist myself who has developed some medical tests that have been of benefit to many medical patients. I feel good about the accomplishments I have made in this field but I always give credit to God for inspiring me to be able to develop these things. He gave me life and the gifts to be able to do what I do. God does not need the credit nor does He take all the credit, we give Him the credit for all he has given us. 

[Exiled]

9 minutes ago, CMZ said:

I don't have time to unravel all the twisting going on here. God gets credit and so do individuals. I don't have children yet but when I do, no, I would not take credit for every single thing they do. It's almost kind of embarrassing to be discussing this since I never said that humankind gets no credit whatsoever for advances in medical science. The awesome thing here, Exiled, is that nobody is forcing you to believe. If you want you can disbelieve everything and hector constantly those who believe God plays a role in things too. You absolutely have the right to do it. It's unlikely that anyone here will ever mount such an overwhelmingly potent intellectual argument for the existence of God or the truthfulness of the Church or whatever that you will be unable to disbelieve. That's actually not how it works. It's been set up so that there will appear to be some evidence for either side and you receiving a personal revelation eventually about it will help you see things better. Then you will have an independent witness so that you will not be reliant on anyone else for your knowledge of the truth. An independent witness to yourself. That's a great gift to have. Then all the talk about how we're stuck having to blindly believe what the general authorities in Salt Lake say, those ones who supposedly live off of all our tithing money, and how our only recourse to get out from under their influence is to talk about how much we disbelieve them, will fade away. When we recognize the prophets as prophets but have our own personal testimony then we are not 100% dependent on them. If you're going to say, "Well, I haven't received one yet," then, yeah, I get it; sometimes it takes a while. Sometimes it takes quite a while. Everyone has their own journey.

I'm sorry to confuse you with my questioning.  Maybe when you do have time, you could try and unravel my "twisting" points?  I think it will lead to agnosticism or some sort of deism, but it may strengthen you to consider alternatives?  Even so, the mods here allow non-believers to be among you and as long as church leaders continually claim those who no longer believe are somehow "lost" and that they should be "found", you will have to endure some push-back regarding yours and your church's claims.

[Exiled]

8 minutes ago, JAHS said:

President Hinckley said:
"We are indebted to the dedicated men and women of science and medicine who have conquered so much of disease, who have mitigated pain, who have stayed the hand of death. We cannot say enough of gratitude for them. Yet they are the first to admit the limitations of their knowledge and the imperfection of their skills in dealing with many matters of life and death."
I am a scientist myself who has developed some medical tests that have been of benefit to many medical patients. I feel good about the accomplishments I have made in this field but I always give credit to God for inspiring me to be able to develop these things. He gave me life and the gifts to be able to do what I do. God does not need the credit nor does He take all the credit, we give Him the credit for all he has given us. 

That is wonderful that you were able to do what you did.  You probably worked tirelessly in developing those tests and should be duly credited for doing so.

[JAHS]

28 minutes ago, Exiled said:

So, what is the difference if one gets a priesthood blessing or if one prays or does nothing?  The outcome will always be the same, regardless, that of God's will, right?  So, is the point of the act to assuage the faithless?  If one has the faith not to be healed, then one need not ask for a blessing because it doesn't matter if the person is healed or not.  Also, the person giving the blessing is merely putting on an act for the faithless because the faith not to be healed combined with the faith to be healed renders the act a nullity for the faithful. So, why even waste one's time with this?  Better yet, why not just admit that priesthood blessings are a relic from the pre-science era?  Maybe E. Bednar didn't think this through?  Maybe he wanted a convenient way to stop people from bothering the other g.a.'s and him for blessings?  Or maybe the faith not to be healed is a unintended confession of pointless ritual?

Sorry you're not making much sense here. "the faith not to be healed"?  If the person does not ask for and receive the blessing he will not die unto God as the scripture says that I quoted. That's the difference.  That is very spiritually comforting to those who receive the blessing, but who are not healed of their sickness. 
"And it shall come to pass that those that die in me shall not taste of death, for it shall be sweet unto them;"  (D&C 42:46)

God's will is always done, and sometimes it is His will to allow someone to be cured of some sickness that the person might have died from. Faith and priesthood blessings can make that happen. We don't know if a person will be cured in every circumstance but we have to have the faith to try. 
It's rather hard to explain all this to a non-believer, but I assure you it is a very comforting doctrine to those who do believe.

[JAHS]

10 minutes ago, Exiled said:

That is wonderful that you were able to do what you did.  You probably worked tirelessly in developing those tests and should be duly credited for doing so.

Thanks and I was given earthly credit for doing it by my employers and those whose lives were helped. But I personally give credit back to God.  

[Exiled]

4 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Sorry you're not making much sense here. "the faith not to be healed"?  If the person does not ask for and receive the blessing he will not die unto God as the scripture says that I quoted. That's the difference.  That is very spiritually comforting to those who receive the blessing, but who are not healed of their sickness. 
"And it shall come to pass that those that die in me shall not taste of death, for it shall be sweet unto them;"  (D&C 42:46)

God's will is always done, and sometimes it is His will to allow someone to be cured of some sickness that the person might have died from. Faith and priesthood blessings can make that happen. We don't know if a person will be cured in every circumstance but we have to have the faith to try. 
It's rather hard to explain all this to a non-believer, but I assure you it is a very comforting doctrine to those who do believe.

I do understand it, just not in the same terms as you do.  To me, it is like the placebo affect and perhaps helping a believing, suffering cancer victim, for example,  to ease the mental anguish that must come from facing imminent death would be beneficial.  Other than that, I don't see where it would help.

[JAHS]

25 minutes ago, Exiled said:

I do understand it, just not in the same terms as you do.  To me, it is like the placebo affect and perhaps helping a believing, suffering cancer victim, for example,  to ease the mental anguish that must come from facing imminent death would be beneficial.  Other than that, I don't see where it would help.

OK. Understood. 

[Calm]

"So, is this how you act with your own children? You trained them and equipped them to go out in the world. So, naturally all of their successes are really yours, right?"

You are assuming we are at a stage where we have gone out into the world, when it is much more likely we are in the backyard sandbox.

[strappinglad]

Imagine this. Pres. Nelson announces that every Thursday morning , he will wander through Temple Square and randomly choose one person to heal from whatever affliction they happen to have. Imagine the commentators and pundits and critics responses . Imagine the utter chaos on the Square every Thursday after the miraculous healings of the first few weeks.

How many blind people DIDN'T Christ heal? How many dead did He not raise? He had the Priesthood and yet there were towns in which He could do not miracles because of a lack of faith there. On the other hand we have the story of the woman who was healed simply by the touch of His robe. On the third hand , I wonder if the faith of the soldier who had his ear lopped off by Peter , was needed when Christ restored it to its rightful place? Mind you, doctors today can, with the right equipment, sew an ear back on and with time have all back to normal, so I guess that is one more miracle explained. The scriptures just failed to mention the operating room etc.

Edited April 22, 2018 by strappinglad

[Jeanne]

Many years ago...I was still in my late teens, a little boy in our ward was going in for his 2nd  heart surgery.  It was a wonderful surprised to this family that President Benson was in the hospital at this time..in a chance visit with someone else.  The father of this child met him and this little boy got a blessing from the prophet..Quiet..no chaos..and more faith in this family that could shake stick at.  He died.  So ...no matter what anyone says about the priesthood to me...it is just blank page. 

[Marginal Gains]

13 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

Just to clarify, you’re now agreeing that the LDS Priesthood isn’t the determining factor? You’re saying anyone who has faith they will be healed, will be healed?

 

4 hours ago, CMZ said:

Priesthood is a factor, faith of different individuals is a factor, God's will is a factor, and there could very well be others.

How can the Priesthood be a factor when people of other faiths receive healing without it?

[Exiled]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

"So, is this how you act with your own children? You trained them and equipped them to go out in the world. So, naturally all of their successes are really yours, right?"

You are assuming we are at a stage where we have gone out into the world, when it is much more likely we are in the backyard sandbox.

We are all just guessing but I don't see God physically around and I don't think you have him over for dinner (I think all know what I mean so no need to claim he is in our hearts, etc.). So, given we are out of his presence, it seems to me that we are well out of the sandbox and on to more adult type pursuits. There is no need to remain infantilized, longing for a parent to tell us what to do.

[SteveO]

My little brother, who is probably 10 times the better man than I, with two kids and a wife, was cutting wood yesteday.  He was a good 2 miles from the truck, and then a good 30 miles from the nearest hospital.  No cell signal.  The chainsaw kicked back on him into his leg.  Google “chainsaw leg injuries” to see how catastrophic they are. He said he could feel the weight on his leg as the chain was running, and he just knew  he was in huge trouble—there would be a good chance he’d bleed out if the right artery was cut.  

This is the picture he texted me last night:

I’ve had chainsaws kick back on me, and I was only saved because I was wearing chaps.  This isn’t possible.  Call it extremely lucky, but it’s more than that for me and my family.

Edited April 22, 2018 by SteveO

[Jeanne]

Ugh..I hope he will be okay..Keep us posted.  My prayers for quick recovery and no infection issues...

Edited April 22, 2018 by Jeanne

[SteveO]

6 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Ugh..I hope he will be okay..Keep us posted.  My prayers for quick recovery and no infection issues...

?  There’s not a scratch on him...

[bluebell]

27 minutes ago, SteveO said:

My little brother, who is probably 10 times the better man than I, with two kids and a wife, was cutting wood yesteday.  He was a good 2 miles from the truck, and then a good 30 miles from the nearest hospital.  No cell signal.  The chainsaw kicked back on him into his leg.  Google “chainsaw leg injuries” to see how catastrophic they are. He said he could feel the weight on his leg as the chain was running, and he just knew  he was in huge trouble—there would be a good chance he’d bleed out if the right artery was cut.  

This is the picture he texted me last night:

I’ve had chainsaws kick back on me, and I was only saved because I was wearing chaps.  This isn’t possible.  Call it extremely lucky, but it’s more than that for me and my family.

You’re right, that should not have been possible. Wow. 

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Marginal Gains said:

 

How can the Priesthood be a factor when people of other faiths receive healing without it?

I've bolded the part of your question where its own answer is contained, Marginal Gains.  You're welcome.  Glad I could help.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

Many years ago...I was still in my late teens, a little boy in our ward was going in for his 2nd  heart surgery.  It was a wonderful surprised to this family that President Benson was in the hospital at this time..in a chance visit with someone else.  The father of this child met him and this little boy got a blessing from the prophet..Quiet..no chaos..and more faith in this family that could shake stick at.  He died.  So ...no matter what anyone says about the priesthood to me...it is just blank page. 

I'm sorry for what this family went through, and, by extension, what you went through, but I'm hesitant to accept your gloss on this without knowing more of the details, what promises might have been made, and so on.  If the sort of promise you imply was made was actually made, the failure of that promise to come to pass means that ... God is in charge, and the faithful know that already.  See also: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/04/healing-the-sick?lang=eng.

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, SteveO said:

?  There’s not a scratch on him...

Whoa...there are these kinds of miracles that are tended my angels!!