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The Nehor

New Revelations and the Future

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3 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

Corporations make decisions unanimously with the influence of the Holy Spirit?

id like to know what company does that 

How is feeling good about a decision, feeling it’s the right decision, based on the facts presented and the discussion entered into, noticeably different to a decision influenced by the Holy Spirit?

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1 minute ago, Marginal Gains said:

How is feeling good about a decision, feeling it’s the right decision, based on the facts presented and the discussion entered into, noticeably different to a decision influenced by the Holy Spirit?

Study the Holy Spirit my friend.

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1 minute ago, Avatar4321 said:

What exactly do you consider evidence that the Lord is speaking to His Apostles directly and by the Holy Ghost?

The word of the Lord.  Not their words, his.  As every other prophet on record in scripture and in the restored Church provides up until 100 years ago when our prophets ceased providing any.

There is no record of a single word attributed from God's mouth to his Church since that time.

 

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Are you suggesting the President Nelson overpaid for this revelation?

No.....I know and remember tiresome days of the past Nehor..........In pursuit of unattainable goals....

Edited by Atheist Mormon

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13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

No, that is what I referenced.
"they have claimed to receive revelation, but all descriptions of revelation no longer feature the Lord actually communicating words."

There is no record of a single word being given by way of revelation to the Church body in years.  All revelations now feature spiritual feelings.

In the early days of the Church the Lord TOLD the prophets what to do.  Today, the prophets do what they FEEL the Lord wants.

A revelation is when God reveals his will or knowledge.
A body of 15 men feeling at peace and united on a decision is not the same as receiving instruction from the Almighty.  Simply calling that a revelation doesn't make it so.

Every single other dispensation, the prophets, apostles, the scriptures, etc ALL describe God speaking to man, appearing to man, instructing man directly.
There is not a single record of any of this (other than a few personal revelations) given in the last 100 years of the Church to the Church.  Any and all revelations referred to in conference  etc all feature feelings of one kind or another.

And I'll issue a CFR to anyone who can provide a record in the past century of God actually speaking a word to the Church body to direct his Church through its leaders.
Just one.
You know, something like:

  • I Nephi 2:1 For behold, it came to pass that the Lord spake unto my father, yea, even in a dream, and said unto him: Blessed art thou Lehi, because of the things which thou hast done; and because thou hast been faithful and declared unto this people the things which I commanded thee, behold, they seek to take away thy life.
  • I Nephi 2:19 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying: Blessed art thou, Nephi, because of thy faith, for thou hast sought me diligently, with lowliness of heart.
  • Acts 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
  • Doctrine and Covenants 128:20 And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah!  Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed. A voice of the Lord in the wilderness of Fayette, Seneca county, declaring the three witnesses to bear record of the book! The voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna, detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light! The voice of Peter, James, and John in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna county, and Colesville, Broome county, on the Susquehanna river, declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times!
  • 1883 Revelation to John Taylor as quoted by Elder Rasband in conference - 
    • What ye have written is My will, and is acceptable unto Me:
      And furthermore: Thus saith the LORD unto the First Presidency, unto the Twelve, unto the Seventies and unto all My holy Priesthood, let not your hearts be troubled, neither be ye concerned about the management and organization of My Church and Priesthood and the accomplishment of My work.
  • D&C 138:60 Thus was the vision of the redemption of the dead revealed to me, and I bear record, and I know that thisrecord is true, through the blessing of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, even so. Amen.
  • " ‘Now, Granddaughter, I want you to remember that this is the testimony of your grandfather, that he told you with his own lips that he actually saw the Savior, here in the temple, and talked with Him face to face.’ - Testimony of Lorenzo Snow to his granddaughter.

 

So I'll wait for my CFR to be answered.
Just one reference, anywhere, to God speaking so much as a word for the direction of the Church in the past century.  Not a feeling, not a claim of revelation, but an actual word from the Lord to direct the Church.

 

Much of this would be answered by studying the last general conference. I wouldn't want to deprive someone else of being able to discover some gems for themselves. Of course many other sources could answer it as well. I would say that most members of the Church are very open to receiving more D&C-style revelations and I went through a phase too where I felt the Church was letting me down by not doing so on a regular basis and that I was in the right to demand that they do so (or to feel that I could demand it). But I don't know of any directive or requirement that says, "Revelation in the Church only exists if and when the prophet is revealing direct words of the Lord unto the general membership of the Church." And some of the instances you referenced above do not include the direct words of the Lord, but are reports of revelations having been received (as with the 1978 revelation being reported). We also have the issue of members not sufficiently feasting on the word that has already been revealed, including not even paying attention while they were listening to this most recent conference. I noticed that after certain talks were given that people would ask questions online about the talk that would be answered if they had actually listened to the talk. Other things just went completely over the heads of many. Not claiming perfection here, which is why I am striving to follow President Nelson's admonition to study the talks frequently, even repeatedly, over the next six months.

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9 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

How is feeling good about a decision, feeling it’s the right decision, based on the facts presented and the discussion entered into, noticeably different to a decision influenced by the Holy Spirit?

Might be the same thing. Despite the miracles Moses experienced he still had to learn to listen to the still, small voice.

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11 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I think it's a very appropriate question.  I don't think there is a difference, really.  At least when it comes to the modes of revelation, inspiration, and direction.  

I bring it up because a huge claim of the LDS church is that it is lead by modern prophets who receive revelations. As an outsider, I don't see any revelations, just possible inspiration, which the Catholic Church also claims. In other words, it seems on closer inspection that the LDS claim to revelation is over-inflated and there is no difference in the methods of governance.

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2 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

How is feeling good about a decision, feeling it’s the right decision, based on the facts presented and the discussion entered into, noticeably different to a decision influenced by the Holy Spirit?

 

Just now, Avatar4321 said:

Study the Holy Spirit my friend.

Ah yes, the old “you simply don’t understand” rebuttal to avoid answering the question.

I've studied the Holy Ghosts track record, it isn’t impressive. Look how well it did with the appointment of Joseph L Bishop, the failure of the Holy Ghost inspired Home & Visiting teaching programme, the failure of the missionary programme (how did that Holy Ghost inspired iPad decision work out?) Now’s the time you say “but it’s the weaknesses of humans that causes the Holy Spirit to fail”. Which makes my point - if it’s subject to the frailties of man, then it’s no better than the frailties of man.

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20 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Just to support the position that JLHProf laid out above:

Quote

A: [Gordon B. Hinckley] Let me say first that we have a great body of revelation, the vast majority of which came from the prophet Joseph Smith. We don't need much revelation. We need to pay more attention to the revelation we've already received. Now, if a problem should arise on which we don't have an answer, we pray about it, we may fast about it, and it comes. Quietly. Usually no voice of any kind, but just a perception in the mind. I liken it to Elijah's experience. When he sought the Lord, there was a great wind, and the Lord was not in the wind. And there was an earthquake, and the Lord was not in the earthquake. And a fire, and the Lord was not in the fire. But in a still, small voice. Now that's the way it works.”

...

Now we don't need a lot of continuing revelation. We have a great, basic reservoir of revelation. But if a problem arises, as it does occasionally, a vexatious thing with which we have to deal, we go to the Lord in prayer. We discuss it as a First Presidency and as a Council of the Twelve Apostles. We pray about it and then comes the whisperings of a still small voice. And we know the direction we should take and we proceed accordingly.
DR: And this is a revelation?
Gordon B. Hinckley: This is a revelation.

- Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, San Francisco Chronicle, Sunday Interview, April 13, 1997, by Don Lattin

Either God directs or the brethren feel good about it, its all the same for some.  For others, it's not.  God's direction is preferred.  Men are simply prone to the weaknesses of the flesh when it comes to feeling good about something, and the secret whisperings of the spirit.  

I'd give this a rep point if I could.

Isn't one of the characteristics of a voice, that it speaks words?
I am perfectly willing to accept that the Lord is speaking in a still small voice rather than the parting of the heavens.
But I would need to see the words spoken by the voice to gain a testimony of them, wouldn't I?

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15 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

They were encouraged to pray for confirmation that Nelson is what the Church claims him to be... How does that process mitigate the risk of confirmation bias?

If an actual witness from the Holy Ghost comes then the presence or absence of mere mental confirmation bias doesn't mean much. Yes, people have to learn to listen to and discern the still, small voice and people can make themselves believe things without confirmation from the Spirit. These things can happen. Doesn't mean revelation never comes to anyone.

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2 minutes ago, CMZ said:

Might be the same thing. Despite the miracles Moses experienced he still had to learn to listen to the still, small voice.

How do you reliably and objectively differentiate between the still small voice and confirmation bias?

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2 minutes ago, CMZ said:

If an actual witness from the Holy Ghost comes then the presence or absence of mere mental confirmation bias doesn't mean much. Yes, people have to learn to listen to and discern the still, small voice and people can make themselves believe things without confirmation from the Spirit. These things can happen. Doesn't mean revelation never comes to anyone.

It does mean you can’t reliably determine what is revelation and what is simply group think and/or confirmation bias.

Edited by Marginal Gains

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6 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

How do you reliably and objectively differentiate between the still small voice and confirmation bias?

This is each individual's journey. Every once in a while a thread crops up here to the effect of, "How do you know if it's really the Spirit?" And it's not up to me to determine that for someone else, just as it's not up to anyone else to determine it for me (apart from the spirits of the prophets being subject unto the prophets). Each individual has to learn to grow into the principle of revelation until they arrive at the point where their discernment of the spirit is always 100% accurate.

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I'll say the obvious, too. There IS a difference: is God inspiring the LDS prophet or is God inspiring the Pope? But that's not my point. My point is that the LDS church claims to have more than just inspiration in governance, but I don't see the difference because the leaders do not say: "I have seen Jesus, I have spoken to Him, and this is what He has to say."

On the other hand, in the Catholic Church, Jesus and Mary frequently appear to people and sometimes, especially in the case of Mary, give them messages to pass on to the world. In that sense, I'd say there is more revelation in the Catholic Church than in the LDS one. This is, of course, leaving aside the question of whether or not either church has the truth. I'm looking at what each church claims and how each on operates.

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19 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

In the regeneration? Is He a Time Lord?

I am not sure of your full implication in this question.

I use it as I believe He uses it. 

Matt 16:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I believe He is speaking of the new Heaven and the new Earth, which He will create - and this one will not be remembered. 

I personally do not believe this involves any change in the dimension of time. It is in our future. This earth will be in the our past, but unremembered. (See Isaiah 65:17) Like the last one was(Need I reference any ordinance here?).  The Lord has never taught us outside our dimension of time.

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10 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Study the Holy Spirit my friend.

You first.
According to Joseph Smith the Holy Ghost's effect is to transfer knowledge and to confirm it's truthfulness.

The still small voice still speaks.  It speaks words.  Those words spoken by God to his representatives have not been seen since Joseph F. Smith.  Not so much as a word.
I think the Lord still inspires or prompts our leaders decisions from time to time, and keeps things under control.
But right now revelation, the word of God, is not making its way to the Church.

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16 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I bring it up because a huge claim of the LDS church is that it is lead by modern prophets who receive revelations. As an outsider, I don't see any revelations, just possible inspiration, which the Catholic Church also claims. In other words, it seems on closer inspection that the LDS claim to revelation is over-inflated and there is no difference in the methods of governance.

I very much agree with what you've said here.  Thanks.  

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26 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The word of the Lord.  Not their words, his.  As every other prophet on record in scripture and in the restored Church provides up until 100 years ago when our prophets ceased providing any.

There is no record of a single word attributed from God's mouth to his Church since that time.

 

I tend to agree with what you're saying.  However, even Joseph Smith, according to my understanding, didn't receive revelation by means of an audible voice from heaven.  He recorded words as they came to his mind, at least in most cases.

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15 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I'd give this a rep point if I could.

Isn't one of the characteristics of a voice, that it speaks words?
I am perfectly willing to accept that the Lord is speaking in a still small voice rather than the parting of the heavens.
But I would need to see the words spoken by the voice to gain a testimony of them, wouldn't I?

I think so.  If we consider the last of that which was added to the canon in anyway--ODII, we get no recording of the words, but an announcement that revelation was had.  

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23 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

 

Ah yes, the old “you simply don’t understand” rebuttal to avoid answering the question.

I've studied the Holy Ghosts track record, it isn’t impressive. Look how well it did with the appointment of Joseph L Bishop, the failure of the Holy Ghost inspired Home & Visiting teaching programme, the failure of the missionary programme (how did that Holy Ghost inspired iPad decision work out?) Now’s the time you say “but it’s the weaknesses of humans that causes the Holy Spirit to fail”. Which makes my point - if it’s subject to the frailties of man, then it’s no better than the frailties of man.

I think the spirit is offended at failures and only wants to be credited with success.

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2 hours ago, Gray said:

I promised myself I wouldn't cry...

 

I can't believe I wasted my points on substantive replies and have none left to give you two.

Bless you for making me laugh.

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2 minutes ago, drums12 said:

I tend to agree with what you're saying.  However, even Joseph Smith, according to my understanding, didn't receive revelation by means of an audible voice from heaven.  He recorded words as they came to his mind, at least in most cases.

But whether in mind, ear, or person, they were God's words.
As in Enos 1:10 And while I was thus struggling in the spirit, behold, the voice of the Lord came into my mind again, saying: I will visit thy brethren according to their diligence in keeping my commandments. I have given unto them this land, and it is a holy land; and I curse it not save it be for the cause of iniquity; wherefore, I will visit thy brethren according as I have said; and their transgressions will I bring down with sorrow upon their own heads.

Regardless of delivery method, they were the words of God.
I am just looking for any words from God.  There haven't been any to the Church in a century that we know of.

Instead we get as described by President Hinckley -

  • And by the power of the Holy Ghost there came to that prophet an assurance that the thing for which he prayed was right
  • by the power of the Holy Ghost, knew the same thing.
  • there was a Pentacostal spirit, for the Holy Ghost was there.
  • .No voice audible to our physical ears was heard. But the voice of the Spirit whispered with certainty into our minds and our very souls.

And I loved President Nelson's talk on revelation.

  • I remember in an operating room, I have stood over a patient—unsure how to perform an unprecedented procedure—and experienced the Holy Ghost diagramming the technique in my mind.
  • Then when we have reached complete accord, the unifying influence of the Holy Ghost is spine-tingling!

The first of Pres. Nelson's statements here describes a revelation by the Holy Ghost.  But that was to him, not to the Church.
And I am willing to believe that "the voice of the Spirit whispered" to President Kimball.  But we have NO records of any words spoken by the voice.  Only a feeling of assurance that a previously hoped for action was ok.
 

 

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14 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I think so.  If we consider the last of that which was added to the canon in anyway--ODII, we get no recording of the words, but an announcement that revelation was had.  

Exactly.  That last time we have record of the Lord speaking to/appearing to the prophet of his Church with instruction was a century ago.
Now we have record of the prophets and apostles praying, coming to agreement, feeling at peace with their decision, and attributing that to the Lord.

 

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14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You first.
According to Joseph Smith the Holy Ghost's effect is to transfer knowledge and to confirm it's truthfulness.

The still small voice still speaks.  It speaks words.  Those words spoken by God to his representatives have not been seen since Joseph F. Smith.  Not so much as a word.
I think the Lord still inspires or prompts our leaders decisions from time to time, and keeps things under control.
But right now revelation, the word of God, is not making its way to the Church.

Oh contraire, my dear Watson. It very much is.... unless you think the Church is only the GAs? 

That is the problem with hierarchical thinking.

Nevertheless, do not fault the Church. Does not Revelation say there will be silence in heaven for the space of 1/2 hr when He opens the 7th seal? Can you expect Him to break His word? 

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