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The Nehor

Reorganization of the Melchizedek Priesthood

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10 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I know that a bishop can't delegate those things as currently organized. My question is more about which church policies could be changed without altering doctrine. My guess is most of them.

Not "judge in Israel".  That is part of the ordination. 

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10 hours ago, e-eye said:

That's nothing new.  The bishop and counselors focus is on the youth and has been if it was done properly.  The Elders Quorum president has keys and has all the authority he needs to do this, he just now is over all the MP holders which makes sense to me.  I kind of thought it a little odd that the HP group leader functioned without keys, but I do understand why. 

I was 33ish when called a HP on the high counsel.  In attending other EQ and HP meetings around the stake there was such a difference I saw in the wisdom and knowledge between the two groups.  When I did attend my HP group I often felt I had little to contribute in way of knowledge because  you had such a large pool of guys with experience - I also missed going to Elders Quorum and being with guys my age.  This change is great!

I have noticed that I feel very free in High Council to say pretty much anything I think as far as practically of suggestions etc.  "I think that he is not ready yet for that since xyz" or "I am worried that the youth will not be able to handle that because..." to the point of almost being "critical" because I know I have a role to fill in dealing with possible problems within a choice of person for a calling or way of organizing projects and meetings etc.  I almost see it as a responsibility to present the "other side" of any question in as kind a way as I can.

In priesthood I put on my "ultra-conservative" hat and uphold the teachings of the "Lord's annointed" precisely because I do not want to hurt the testimonies of others who are perhaps less "mature" in the gospel by seeming to criticize teachers etc

We have had to combine EQ with HP on occasion due to teachers not showing up etc.  I have found that in HP I tend to be half way between my High Council self and my Sunday School self.   When the Elders are around including brand new converts etc. I always tow the company line.   Plus I cannot stop people calling me "bishop" and so I feel an extra responsibility to act "Bishoply"

So it will be interesting.  I notice other former leaders and present leaders act similarly to the way I do, adjusting comments for the context, and being ultra careful not to offend the teacher or anyone else.

We have two local politicians in our stake, one is a bishopric counselor and the other is on the High Council and they are VERY outspoken on what "will work" and who is ready for what calling in leadership meetings and much more cautious in general meetings.

So I really do wonder how much "wisdom" about leadership will come out in Elder's Quorum meetings with investigators and new converts and inexperienced members attending.

But doctrine and stuff and how the church works?  Yeah there will be more of that for sure.

 

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I do remember having been an Elder's Quorum president though and being scared to death being called as HPGL.

Scared

to 

Death.

But that was nothing compared to being called as a bishop.

It's pretty funny actually how all this growing up stuff works.  ;)

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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6 hours ago, rongo said:

When have General Authorities ever said, "We've really botched it, and we're going to try something different?" It is always going to be presented as "superior and more correct than the previous way," even when it is in reaction to poor performance. 

 

 

What's scary about it (serious question)?

What instances can you find since OD2 where the Brethren have said they have sought for doctrinal or scriptural explanation for something? What examples can you find of any such explanations?

The first thing that came to mind was Elder Bednar and his book "Increase in Learning" where he talks about things like asking, seeking and knocking.  I know he gave a talk about this, but it may have just been a regional conference I went to.  I know this isn't what you were asking for, but I have a hard time believing that he would put so much time and emphasis on this concept (several talks, books etc) and then not use it as a part of his calling.  

I'll try to remember to do more searching later.  Right now I'm tired and need to get to bed.

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14 hours ago, bluebell said:

Well, hopefully the elders can buck up a little.  The RS has been functioning like this for years and years. It’ll be kind of embarrassing if the men can’t handle it. 😏

Yeah, except a lot of the women don't handle it either. We have TONS of women skipping RS every week. Mostly the 35 and younger demographic. It's even worse in the 25 and younger age group. They don't relate so they skip. Maybe this is unusual to my area.

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9 hours ago, Rain said:

The first thing that came to mind was Elder Bednar and his book "Increase in Learning" where he talks about things like asking, seeking and knocking.  I know he gave a talk about this, but it may have just been a regional conference I went to.  I know this isn't what you were asking for, but I have a hard time believing that he would put so much time and emphasis on this concept (several talks, books etc) and then not use it as a part of his calling.  

I know and believe that the Brethren sincerely ask, seek, and knock, but it appears that this is only about policy or organizational administrative items, and has been for a long time. I see no indication (and have certainly seen no discussion or mention on their part) that anyone has asked God for doctrinal or scriptural clarification, enlightenment, or expansion. Often, Article of Faith #9 is held out as evidence that we believe that "many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God" have yet to be revealed. We all believe this, but I wonder how many of us expect this to ever include in the future doctrinal or scriptural clarification, enlightenment, or expansion. In the last 10 to 15 years, we have had a number of major topics come to the forefront that need authoritative explanation. But the Brethren are studiously silent on these issues, opting instead to have scholars (Paul Reeve, Richard Wilkins, John Gee, Brian Hales, etc.) write articles for their approval to be put on the Church website anonymously (with no name attached). When asked about them in Q&As or intentional visits (Sweden, Boise, etc.), they don't demonstrate good familiarity with the issues, so it's understandable that they would farm them out to scholars. 

I think it would be a real boon to the Church, and especially to those for whom these issues are a very big deal, if the Brethren themselves were familiar with the issues and could address them. Doctrinally and scripturally, it would be a tremendous blessing if we had authoritative doctrinal clarification on such things as:

1) an authoritative explanation for the priesthood ban, instead of disavowal of past explanations without offering an authoritative one, and without explaining why the Church teaches that the pre-existence impacts mortality in other ways.

2) an authoritative explanation for Joseph Smith's polygamy

3) an authoritative explanation for "individual pre-mortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose" (gender and orientation).

and other similar doctrinal questions.

Do you think that God has been and is being asked about questions like this?

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10 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I definitely would.....You know too much.....

Thank you, I hope this is said, or written in sincerity, as April fool's, comments continue to linger. I have decided to prepare for my lesson,, because doing so, teaches the teacher, who becomes the student most effected by the preparation. But, if I am not allowed teach, this Sunday and in the future, I will truly miss it. Although if not allowed to teach, I  will be able to attend another Ward, with dear friends whom I miss.. This because our Ward has split, not once but twice. Callings in the past, have made this almost impossible. Also, the joy of attending in the building and with many other friends, where we attended for 30+ years. I have attended Wards and Branches, all over the world, and in many States, which was great, but also great finally putting down roots for the sake of my children, who found it difficult, due to my military service,. I remember when my son came home from his mission, our Stake President, who set him apart, and released him,, came to speak at his home coming. He was also our Bishop for much of my son's teenage years, and I was his first counselor.  He was spoke of and noted, he served as Stake President, Bishop and Young Men's President ,and, he has known Caleb for his entire life, and a time he taught in Primary, and was his teacher one year. He also has known my  youngest daughter for her entire life,  When air asked him what to do, once my daughter "came out" as being Gay? His reply was short and simple, "you have but one function, and that is to love her, unconditionally, just as God loves you". Anyway, I am rambling.

Papa out! 

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4 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Thank you, I hope this is said, or written in sincerity, as April fool's, comments continue to linger. I have decided to prepare for my lesson,, because doing so, teaches the teacher, who becomes the student most effected by the preparation. But, if I am not allowed teach, this Sunday and in the future, I will truly miss it. Although if not allowed to teach, I  will be able to attend another Ward, with dear friends whom I miss.. This because our Ward has split, not once but twice. Callings in the past, have made this almost impossible. Also, the joy of attending in the building and with many other friends, where we attended for 30+ years. I have attended Wards and Branches, all over the world, and in many States, which was great, but also great finally putting down roots for the sake of my children, who found it difficult, due to my military service,. I remember when my son came home from his mission, our Stake President, who set him apart, and released him,, came to speak at his home coming. He was also our Bishop for much of my son's teenage years, and I was his first counselor.  He was spoke of and noted, he served as Stake President, Bishop and Young Men's President ,and, he has known Caleb for his entire life, and a time he taught in Primary, and was his teacher one year. He also has known my  youngest daughter for her entire life,  When air asked him what to do, once my daughter "came out" as being Gay? His reply was short and simple, "you have but one function, and that is to love her, unconditionally, just as God loves you". Anyway, I am rambling.

Papa out! 

Of course I meant it. You pack so much energy, experience......It would be sad mistake if they release you

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On 02/04/2018 at 2:59 AM, Traela said:

If you haven't already, sync your LDS Tools.  High Priest Groups and Elders Quorum presidencies are GONE.  President Nelson wasn't kidding with his blanket release.  Also, Visiting Teaching Supervisors have been changed to Ministering Supervisors.

 

Our bishop has let us in the HP group leadership and EQ presidency know that starting next week we will meet together as if we'd already been combined, and the two leadership groups will cooperate temporarily until the stake president formalizes the change.  He wrote: "With regards to each Sunday until calling changes are made, I felt it might be wise to start as we’ll continue, to at least meet together as a new Elders Quorum, even before we have a presidency in place."  And while the stake president did not gainsay him, he did emphasize: "No one is released until they are formally released by the Stake Presidency!"  He indicated that the changes will be done "with wisdom and order," which is how I expect things will be done all over.

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10 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Our bishop has let us in the HP group leadership and EQ presidency know that starting next week we will meet together as if we'd already been combined, and the two leadership groups will cooperate temporarily until the stake president formalizes the change.  He wrote: "With regards to each Sunday until calling changes are made, I felt it might be wise to start as we’ll continue, to at least meet together as a new Elders Quorum, even before we have a presidency in place."  And while the stake president did not gainsay him, he did emphasize: "No one is released until they are formally released by the Stake Presidency!"  He indicated that the changes will be done "with wisdom and order," which is how I expect things will be done all over.

It's a lot of work in the coming week or two for the stake presidencies. I'm having mine continue to meet in their quorums until they are released and a new one is called. 

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1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Of course I meant it. You pack so much energy, experience......It would be sad mistake if they release you

Thank you, that is so kind. My fear is that they will have one High Priest, and nothing more. This way it will not seem like the High Priests are trying to dictate to the younger Elders. I guess we will all find out soon enough. 

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6 hours ago, rongo said:

I think it would be a real boon to the Church, and especially to those for whom these issues are a very big deal, if the Brethren themselves were familiar with the issues and could address them. Doctrinally and scripturally, it would be a tremendous blessing if we had authoritative doctrinal clarification on such things as:

1) an authoritative explanation for the priesthood ban, instead of disavowal of past explanations without offering an authoritative one, and without explaining why the Church teaches that the pre-existence impacts mortality in other ways.

2) an authoritative explanation for Joseph Smith's polygamy

3) an authoritative explanation for "individual pre-mortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose" (gender and orientation).

and other similar doctrinal questions.

Do you think that God has been and is being asked about questions like this?

I would also add "the general scope and location of the cities and events in The Book of Mormon." 

If you look at how much time, effort and money at least one group of people are absolutely wasting on the subject, and how simple it would be to clarify it, it almost seems silly that God hasn't taken 30 seconds out of His busy schedule to let the Prophet know (and have the Prophet take 30 seconds to let us know).

Edited by cinepro

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4 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I would also add "the general scope and location of the cities and events in The Book of Mormon." 

If you look at how much time, effort and money at least one group of people are absolutely wasting on the subject, and how simple it would be to clarify it, it almost seems silly that God hasn't taken 30 seconds out of His busy schedule to let the Prophet know (and have the Prophet take 30 seconds to let us know).

 

6 hours ago, rongo said:

I know and believe that the Brethren sincerely ask, seek, and knock, but it appears that this is only about policy or organizational administrative items, and has been for a long time. I see no indication (and have certainly seen no discussion or mention on their part) that anyone has asked God for doctrinal or scriptural clarification, enlightenment, or expansion. Often, Article of Faith #9 is held out as evidence that we believe that "many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God" have yet to be revealed. We all believe this, but I wonder how many of us expect this to ever include in the future doctrinal or scriptural clarification, enlightenment, or expansion. In the last 10 to 15 years, we have had a number of major topics come to the forefront that need authoritative explanation. But the Brethren are studiously silent on these issues, opting instead to have scholars (Paul Reeve, Richard Wilkins, John Gee, Brian Hales, etc.) write articles for their approval to be put on the Church website anonymously (with no name attached). When asked about them in Q&As or intentional visits (Sweden, Boise, etc.), they don't demonstrate good familiarity with the issues, so it's understandable that they would farm them out to scholars. 

I think it would be a real boon to the Church, and especially to those for whom these issues are a very big deal, if the Brethren themselves were familiar with the issues and could address them. Doctrinally and scripturally, it would be a tremendous blessing if we had authoritative doctrinal clarification on such things as:

1) an authoritative explanation for the priesthood ban, instead of disavowal of past explanations without offering an authoritative one, and without explaining why the Church teaches that the pre-existence impacts mortality in other ways.

2) an authoritative explanation for Joseph Smith's polygamy

3) an authoritative explanation for "individual pre-mortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose" (gender and orientation).

and other similar doctrinal questions.

Do you think that God has been and is being asked about questions like this?

I believe He is and that He wisely leaves many of these questions unanswered on an authoritative level, because that would rob people of the opportunity to develop. 

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Just now, kllindley said:

I believe He is and that He wisely leaves many of these questions unanswered on an authoritative level, because that would rob people of the opportunity to develop. 

I don't believe that God should dance while we pistol-whip him with our demands that he answer our questions. But, I also believe that at least sometimes, there should be authoritative answers to at least some of these fundamental doctrinal questions. I don't think the current climate is to ask for them at the Church level (individuals do, but their answers aren't authoritative or binding on the Church as a whole). I don't care for holding out AoF #9, but also not expecting there to ever be any scriptural, doctrinal, or expansional explanations received as revelation. 

To me, the many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God are not solely policy and organizational adjustments. 

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6 minutes ago, rongo said:

I don't believe that God should dance while we pistol-whip him with our demands that he answer our questions. But, I also believe that at least sometimes, there should be authoritative answers to at least some of these fundamental doctrinal questions. I don't think the current climate is to ask for them at the Church level (individuals do, but their answers aren't authoritative or binding on the Church as a whole). I don't care for holding out AoF #9, but also not expecting there to ever be any scriptural, doctrinal, or expansional explanations received as revelation. 

To me, the many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God are not solely policy and organizational adjustments. 

I guess I don't believe that the Brethren aren't asking those questions. 

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Just now, kllindley said:

I guess I don't believe that the Brethren aren't asking those questions. 

So if they are asking, are they incapable of receiving any of these answers or are they simply not sharing with the rest of us?

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2 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

So if they are asking, are they incapable of receiving any of these answers or are they simply not sharing with the rest of us?

So are you just trying to be rude or can you simply not concieve of any other possibility?

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Just now, kllindley said:

I guess I don't believe that the Brethren aren't asking those questions. 

Wouldn't it at least be helpful for them to say (sometimes) "We're asking, and the answer is that it is not to be revealed at this time?" (as has been said in the past)

That would be helpful, and at least an answer of a kind letting us know that the question is asked and God does not see fit to reveal it at this time.

The gospel topics essay approach, and the heavy editing and "spokespeopling" done through the Church's communication organs doesn't do a lot to convince me that the questions are being asked. And, from Q&As I've observed, they don't appear to be familiar enough with the issues to really discuss them. In other words, to have enough information to ask the question. The gospel topics essay approach seems to be an attempt to "put out something" with the vague realization that there are issues or concerns, but it seems like that is pretty much it. 

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Just now, rongo said:

Wouldn't it at least be helpful for them to say (sometimes) "We're asking, and the answer is that it is not to be revealed at this time?" (as has been said in the past)

That would be helpful, and at least an answer of a kind letting us know that the question is asked and God does not see fit to reveal it at this time.

The gospel topics essay approach, and the heavy editing and "spokespeopling" done through the Church's communication organs doesn't do a lot to convince me that the questions are being asked. And, from Q&As I've observed, they don't appear to be familiar enough with the issues to really discuss them. In other words, to have enough information to ask the question. The gospel topics essay approach seems to be an attempt to "put out something" with the vague realization that there are issues or concerns, but it seems like that is pretty much it. 

To each their own interpretation. ✌

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2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Our bishop has let us in the HP group leadership and EQ presidency know that starting next week we will meet together as if we'd already been combined, and the two leadership groups will cooperate temporarily until the stake president formalizes the change.  He wrote: "With regards to each Sunday until calling changes are made, I felt it might be wise to start as we’ll continue, to at least meet together as a new Elders Quorum, even before we have a presidency in place."  And while the stake president did not gainsay him, he did emphasize: "No one is released until they are formally released by the Stake Presidency!"  He indicated that the changes will be done "with wisdom and order," which is how I expect things will be done all over.

I’d be surprised if it was different

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2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Our bishop has let us in the HP group leadership and EQ presidency know that starting next week we will meet together as if we'd already been combined, and the two leadership groups will cooperate temporarily until the stake president formalizes the change.  He wrote: "With regards to each Sunday until calling changes are made, I felt it might be wise to start as we’ll continue, to at least meet together as a new Elders Quorum, even before we have a presidency in place."  And while the stake president did not gainsay him, he did emphasize: "No one is released until they are formally released by the Stake Presidency!"  He indicated that the changes will be done "with wisdom and order," which is how I expect things will be done all over.

I’d be surprised if it was different

 

39 minutes ago, kllindley said:

 

I believe He is and that He wisely leaves many of these questions unanswered on an authoritative level, because that would rob people of the opportunity to develop. 

Some people would prefer others do the leg work

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17 hours ago, Rain said:

With everything I have read from Elder Bednar, who also learned much from President Packer, I would be shocked if he spent even 50% of his time on policy, organizational or administrative items. He is HUGE about searching, pondering and praying over principles and doctrines. He would call the policies "applications" and while important and can help you learn doctrine they are not the thing that changes behavior. They are not the thing that helps us become like God. 

Here is the thing where you will probably differ from him. While he feels that doctrine is key, he is also big on the idea that you can know the doctrine, but until you understand the doctrine it won't make a lot of difference. So he isn't going to feed it to people. He feels the understanding comes when people act search for themselves in the scriptures. 

I too have wanted answers like you talk about. To be honest, I still do, but after this last month I finally feel I have begun to understand some doctrine I was missing in my heart. Over the last year and a half I spent time studying the scriptures, marking them, grouping them etc. I was about ready to give up when suddenly this beautiful understanding dawned on me. It has changed who I am. Changed my actions. Etc. 

Elder Bednar would be the first to tell you he knows that is unsatisfactory. I've heard/read him say that, but my experience has shown me it is the only thing that really changes something for people and so while I want to be told those answers you speak of I understand why the Brethren may be silent on some of those principles. 

All this to say that I think, from what I have read, that at least Elder Bednar IS praying about these things and if you read more by him you might come to the same understanding. And I don't think he is the only one.  I see some of that from some things Elder Uchtdorf has said. I'm sure I would find more if I gave more effort.

can you elaborate on the idea about marking your scriptures and what was it you were going to give up but you came to a new understanding? you can PM if you want. I just bought new scriptures and besides the binding fraying.....................I am re marking them and putting little quotations in here and there

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19 hours ago, cinepro said:

I would also add "the general scope and location of the cities and events in The Book of Mormon." 

If you look at how much time, effort and money at least one group of people are absolutely wasting on the subject, and how simple it would be to clarify it, it almost seems silly that God hasn't taken 30 seconds out of His busy schedule to let the Prophet know (and have the Prophet take 30 seconds to let us know).

I think there's a lot of risk inherent in answering those kinds of questions. If they feel like they've had a revelation and the location doesn't pan out, that would lead to a lot of damaged testimonies.

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21 hours ago, kllindley said:

 

I believe He is and that He wisely leaves many of these questions unanswered on an authoritative level, because that would rob people of the opportunity to develop. 

I suspect that comment would make LDS of the 1830s weep.

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