Jump to content
Seriously No Politics ×

MormonLeaks: Former Mormon Mission President Admitting to Inappropriate Interactions with Women


Recommended Posts

5 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

You're wrong about my position, I'm not advocating for laws to outlaw polygyny, I just commented that I believe the Nauvoo practice of it was particularly immoral, and I find it problematic generally, but I've never said I support making it illegal, or would restrict freedom to practice it among consenting adults.  Just because something is legal doesn't mean I shouldn't speak out about the problems of those behaviors, how hurtful the practice is for families and disproportionately harmful to women, and detrimental to society in general.  

You seem dedicated to straw-man arguments that misrepresent my position intentionally.  I never made a claim that the same things were done by other group exactly.  I never claimed moral equivalency, I said the exact opposite, and I'm beginning to think we have a problem with reading comprehension at this juncture of the discussion.  

 

Unfortunately this claim isn't supported by a rigorous review of history.  I recommend the following book for an excellent in-depth discussion of the topic.  

https://www.amazon.com/Standing-Apart-Historical-Consciousness-Apostasy/dp/0199348146/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521585131&sr=8-1&keywords=standing+apart

Stop closed door interviews with minors.

Stop the discussions of sex with everyone

Start background checking leaders who work with minors

Start getting bishops better training

Start outsourcing to trained professionals more

Put controls in place to protect individuals

Change the culture where people go to Bishops for everything including the kitchen sink and start to emphasize very narrow reasons to go to a bishop for advice on spiritual matters

Make leaders read more of the complicated history of the church before being called to important positions

Complete financial transparency

Call diverse leaders into positions, including women

Get theologians and philosophers into the leadership ranks

Apologize for past harms and acknowledge current problems on race and sex and LGBT issues

Revoke the 2015 LGBT policy as a gross heresy and apologize for the error

Get humble and quit hiding behind a curtain about special insight from deity

I could go on, but we essentially need a reformation in the Mormon religion.

Uhhhhhhh......No.

Link to comment
Just now, Storm Rider said:

SteveO, I have not listened to the audio or read the report.  Whether this man is guilty of the claims is irrelevant to me.  I am certain, though ignorant of any, that there has been abuse of various kinds by some leaders.  It would not surprise me to learn that other leaders learn of it and nothing happened.  I think this is far more likely in the past than in recent history.  

Simply because we are human does not excuse us of our sins or the need to be responsible for our actions.  More importantly, it does not obviate the responsibility of leaders to take action when discovered.  If leaders have looked the other way for anyone then they, in my opinion, should be released of their calling.  One of great functions of the Church is the perfection of the saints and that begins with repentance.  Looking the other way obstructs repentance and I have no understanding of such actions.  It makes such actions all the more egregious.

Well, that's the end of your credibility in contributing to the discussion.  I'll move on, now.

Link to comment
8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

First off, where does it state that Bishop had dementia, Calm? Second, WhyMe he didn't deny the allegations in the recording. Did you listen to it? I didn't know that I have only listened partially to it, I thought I listened to all of it until today where I heard it went for a good 2 1/2 hours.  

A person stating he knew him said the dementia had been going on for several years.  Another person agreed elsewhere.  I can't confirm that, but it is the language ('I don't remember, but I'm sorry' among other things) that sounds too familiar to me and made me jump pretty much instantly to that conclusion.

He didn't deny the allegations, but if he didn't remember them, how can he confirm them?

Edited by Calm
Link to comment
5 minutes ago, Calm said:

The Church release speaks of it happening in December, so I suspect it has been confirmed as valid by those who can recognize Bishop's voice or he is capable of confirming it himself (I don't see him as that far gone).

"I don't know"

Thank you

Link to comment
8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

First off, where does it state that Bishop had dementia, Calm? Second, WhyMe he didn't deny the allegations in the recording. Did you listen to it? I didn't know that I have only listened partially to it, I thought I listened to all of it until today where I heard it went for a good 2 1/2 hours.  

Based on the transcript I would say he could easily have some level of dementia. The audio would be a better indicator but I do not have that kind of time.

Link to comment
2 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Well, that's the end of your credibility in contributing to the discussion.  I'll move on, now.

Isn't he agreeing with you though that leadership is accountable and needs to act as well as concluding they have likely not acted in the past, though he is personally unaware of it?

Link to comment
3 minutes ago, ttribe said:

 

For the record, I don't think she helped her case with the way she handled herself in many instances (a death threat, for example).  In reading the transcript, I also found myself concerned with what could be perceived as rather leading and aggressive behavior on her part.

 

I'm quite sure that I read.  Typically, when fills his/her defense with numerous ALL CAPS words and exclamation points !!!!!, they tend to send the message of angriness.

Nevertheless, can you address my comment about balancing the notion of imperfection with that of a likely series of gaffs by different leaders over a period of many years?

I really don't think you actually read my comments.  I did not write that they are imperfect and so c'est la vie.  I felt I went much further than that and I have followed it up with other recent comments that simply being human does not excuse sin.

Link to comment
1 minute ago, cdowis said:

"I don't know"

Thank you

Not exactly:

"The matter resurfaced in 2016 when the same individual contacted a stake president in Pueblo, Colorado, and then again a few weeks ago in January 2018, when the Church was contacted by a lawyer representing her. He provided a copy of a recording that she had made of a conversation between her and 85-year-old Joseph Bishop in December 2017. Since that time, the Church has engaged in an investigation of this individual’s allegations."

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/statement-former-mission-president-alleged-abuse-joseph-l-bishop-march-2018

Link to comment
1 minute ago, Calm said:

Isn't he agreeing with you though that leadership is accountable and needs to act as well as concluding they have likely not acted in the past, though he is personally unaware of it?

 

1 minute ago, Storm Rider said:

I really don't think you actually read my comments.  I did not write that they are imperfect and so c'est la vie.  I felt I went much further than that and I have followed it up with other recent comments that simply being human does not excuse sin.

None of these comments address the notion that started that part of the conversation; namely, the question of inspiration when it comes to extending leadership callings.  I'm not talking about Bishop's imperfections and sin; I'm talking about the repeated calling of an individual to positions of greater and greater responsibility and influence that allowed him access to more victims.  

Link to comment
5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Based on the transcript I would say he could easily have some level of dementia. The audio would be a better indicator but I do not have that kind of time.

When you have the time, I'd suggest everyone listen. I read most of the transcript and then heard most of the audio, and it was a world of difference. When reading the transcript it very well could seem that he had some dementia but when you listen to the audio it puts it into a whole other light or is more contextualized.

Edited by Tacenda
Link to comment
48 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Based on the transcript I would say he could easily have some level of dementia. The audio would be a better indicator...

I am not so certain.  On many days if you just listen to Mom's tones and rhythms, you won't clue in...it is the contradictions that are the clue and what she skips over dealing with (it is one of the reasons I used to talk to my relatives after every visit to get a reality check because it was so hard to believe she had issues on those days).  However, under stress her voice is more hesitant or goes atypical places (anger, defensiveness, indignation, weak, etc).  I really wish someone professional was available.  Maybe I will ask my friend who is the boss of a senior center...but I think it would depress her too much, so I doubt I will do it.

add-on:  honestly I have thought about recording her to get a better read on where she is by documenting her claims.  I may just have more faith in the written word for finding facts, though tone and body language are a huge part of communication.

Edited by Calm
Link to comment
5 minutes ago, Calm said:

Not exactly:

"The matter resurfaced in 2016 when the same individual contacted a stake president in Pueblo, Colorado, and then again a few weeks ago in January 2018, when the Church was contacted by a lawyer representing her. He provided a copy of a recording that she had made of a conversation between her and 85-year-old Joseph Bishop in December 2017. Since that time, the Church has engaged in an investigation of this individual’s allegations."

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/statement-former-mission-president-alleged-abuse-joseph-l-bishop-march-2018

Thanks for the update.  It is under investigation by the church.

Link to comment
23 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

When you have the time, I'd suggest everyone listen. I read most of the transcript and then heard most of the audio, and it was a world of difference. When reading the transcript it very well could seem that he had some dementia but when you listen to the audio it puts it into a whole other light or is more contextualized.

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/statement-former-mission-president-alleged-abuse-joseph-l-bishop-march-2018

Bishop was a university professor to begin with and an experienced administrator after that.  He is used to interacting with others with confidence.

"Some studies have indicated that people who have a high intellect and more education can cover up the signs of dementia for a longer period of time. They can even deny it to themselves longer. These people simply start at such a high level of knowledge that others don’t notice a slight slip. This isn’t, of course, always true. Many who have not had higher education are very clever and can cover up memory slips with ease. No two people are the same, so adult children should be on the lookout for signs of deterioration in their parents."

Edited by Calm
Link to comment
7 minutes ago, cdowis said:

Thanks for the update.  It is under investigation by the church.

"recording that she had made of a conversation between her and 85-year-old Joseph Bishop"

Sounds like they have confirmed that part.  There is no "alleged" used while  other possibly extenuating details are.

Not an update, btw. I was referring to this comment in my first response to you.  I had assumed you read the link.

Edited by Calm
Link to comment
37 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I haven't listened to the recording so can someone else who has comment-

Did the woman fail to tell anyone (who she leaked this too) that her claim had been taken acknowledged by the church in 2010 and that they had turned it over to the police to investigate, and also to his ecclesiastical leaders to see if discipline was necessary?

Here is what she said about this in the transcript:

Quote

Doesn't matter. Not important. I had my youngest daughter with me. She was ______ at the time. I called Salt Lake and I said look, I need answers. It's been a very long time. Here's his name, here's what he did. What happened.

You know what they told me? You're not entitled to know. I said, I'm not entitled to know? Is there a council? Was there a court, was he excommunicated, did [inaudible 01:21:11]? What? You're not entitled to know. 

I said, really. Well you know what, I have a gun. I do have a gun. I was trained in ________, I have a gun. [inaudible 01:21:25] I will -- I know where that ******* lives, I will go shoot that ******* myself. And [inaudible 01:21:31) until the cops show up. 

And I said, I was on at the mission training center, and the mission president sexually assaulted me. It's still on record. I just checked before I came here. Never got an answer. Last year I talked to my stake president,________ , you know. Can you just give me some closure, an answer, something. . 

 

Link to comment

TBH if she is lying why this man out? like she would have to have some huge beef with him to make false statements like this and name others as well, Elder Robert Wells is alive. If he has dementia, why pick someone with dementia? Unless she picked out him out randomly and lied about him. I think there is something to it otherwise why him? I don't know much about dementia but I wonder if it's worse today than when he gave this interview, who knows

Link to comment
2 minutes ago, Calm said:

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/statement-former-mission-president-alleged-abuse-joseph-l-bishop-march-2018

Bishop was a university professor to begin with and an experience administrator after that.  He is used to interacting with others with confidence.

"Some studies have indicated that people who have a high intellect and more education can cover up the signs of dementia for a longer period of time. They can even deny it to themselves longer. These people simply start at such a high level of knowledge that others don’t notice a slight slip. This isn’t, of course, always true. Many who have not had higher education are very clever and can cover up memory slips with ease. No two people are the same, so adult children should be on the lookout for signs of deterioration in their parents."

Would you mind listening to the tape and then give me your take on it? Or not..

Link to comment
14 minutes ago, ttribe said:

 

None of these comments address the notion that started that part of the conversation; namely, the question of inspiration when it comes to extending leadership callings.  I'm not talking about Bishop's imperfections and sin; I'm talking about the repeated calling of an individual to positions of greater and greater responsibility and influence that allowed him access to more victims.  

You don't see this as adressing it:

"More importantly, it does not obviate the responsibility of leaders to take action when discovered.  If leaders have looked the other way for anyone then they, in my opinion, should be released of their calling."

Link to comment
Just now, Calm said:

You don't see this as adressing it:

"More importantly, it does not obviate the responsibility of leaders to take action when discovered.  If leaders have looked the other way for anyone then they, in my opinion, should be released of their calling."

That's a good statement, but it still doesn't answer the explicit question - "Where was the Spirit of Discernment?"  This is doubt-inducing pattern and it's being ignored now.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, why me said:

These days, everyone seems to be marching for something. However, if this march is taking place on conference weekend, to disrupt a general conference as the Kate Kelly demonstrations did, well, what to do? It seems that the lds church has a policy in place. But if local church leaders do not follow it, what to do? People are such imperfect beings that I can never expect things to always go the right way.

Sam Young is not aiming to disrupt general conference.  The march is the Friday before conference and culminates with the delivery of the collection of accounts of abuse.  

The current church policy is what Sam and his organization are hoping to change. 

Link to comment
9 minutes ago, Duncan said:

TBH if she is lying why this man out? like she would have to have some huge beef with him to make false statements like this and name others as well, Elder Robert Wells is alive. If he has dementia, why pick someone with dementia? Unless she picked out him out randomly and lied about him. I think there is something to it otherwise why him? I don't know much about dementia but I wonder if it's worse today than when he gave this interview, who knows

It was last December.  It can get worse in three months, also may be worse in winter if there is less social interaction, getting out and about, physical activity.  Significant deterioration after several years of slow development (as described by someone else, so may not be true)...I think that would likely be the result of other issues (getting physically ill will increase symptoms), which certainly could have happened.

Edited by Calm
Link to comment
3 minutes ago, ttribe said:

That's a good statement, but it still doesn't answer the explicit question - "Where was the Spirit of Discernment?"  This is doubt-inducing pattern and it's being ignored now.

Got it.

Link to comment
2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

TBH if she is lying why this man out? like she would have to have some huge beef with him to make false statements like this and name others as well, Elder Robert Wells is alive. If he has dementia, why pick someone with dementia? Unless she picked out him out randomly and lied about him. I think there is something to it otherwise why him? I don't know much about dementia but I wonder if it's worse today than when he gave this interview, who knows

It sounds like she's been through a lot of trauma in her life (even if we don't assume this is true) and I read that she is a recovering alcoholic (but please take that with a grain of salt because there is so much information flying around right now about everyone involved that I'm not sure if that's actually true or not.  It might not be).  

If that is true though, then psychologically it's hard to say what makes sense for her and what doesn't.   Confabulation is a real thing, and it's usually not done with the intent to deceive.  And then there are other deceptive reasons that someone might make false accusations too.  Even those who were actually victimized sometimes do things that make no real sense when looking at the actions or words later.  We can't really rely on 'what makes sense for the accuser to have done' to say whether or not someone is guilty or innocent.  

(And I'm not saying that that's what is happening with her.  I'm just addressing your question of why would someone falsely accuse another person of something so horrible).

Link to comment
Just now, Calm said:

It was last December.  It can get worse in three months, also may be worse in winter if there is less social interaction.  Significant deterioration after several years of slow development (as described by someone else, so may not be true)...I think that would likely be the result of other issues (getting physically ill will increase symptoms), which certainly could have happened.

that's the thing, he can say he has dementia but were I the Crown I would want to know if he had dementia when he made these statements and try to figure it out

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...