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Why isn't the Book of Enoch accepted in the LDS canon?

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Seven heavens...I hope to hit one of them..but I have never heard this before..you scholars should write Sunday School Books!!:D

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3 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Seven heavens...I hope to hit one of them..but I have never heard this before..you scholars should write Sunday School Books!!:D

I always thought it was just 3 heavens for the LDS and one for the EV's. 

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13 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Seven heavens...I hope to hit one of them..but I have never heard this before..you scholars should write Sunday School Books!!:D

 

8 minutes ago, snowflake said:

I always thought it was just 3 heavens for the LDS and one for the EV's. 

 

"Paul saw the third heavens, and I more." (Joseph Smith, TPJS Section 6, p. 301)

"Paul ascended into the third heavens, and he could understand the three principal rounds of Jacob's ladder--the telestial, the terrestrial, and the celestial glories or kingdoms, where Paul saw and heard things which were not lawful for him to utter. I could explain a hundred fold more than I ever have of the glories of the kingdoms manifested to me in the vision, were I permitted, and were the people prepared to receive them." (Joseph Smith, TPJS Section 6, p. 304)

“I know one who was caught up to the seventh heaven and saw and heard things not lawful for me to utter” (Joseph Smith as quoted by Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner. Journal and Memoirs of MaryElizabeth Rollins Lightner, typewritten copy, BYU Library, pg. 4)

D&C 131:1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

D&C 130:10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;
11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new namewritten, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

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2 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

 

Paradise was typically the 3rd heaven in a heavenly ascent of 7 heavens. You see that explicitly in Revelation which it's where the Garden of Eden is in the 3rd heaven. This was typical in heavenly ascent literature. 1 Enoch doesn't use that instead using the older mountain cosmology for the most part. However most other Merkabah texts go through the cosmology. Rev 2 in particular adopts this at least allegorically and possibly literally where each of the seven Churches is also a step through a heaven along with enduing of particular divine qualities or tokens. Again characteristic of heavenly ascent literature of the era.

Generally the conception of seven heavens (which over time sometimes became more heavens) arose out of Babylon. By the time of Jesus it was mainstream Jewish thought. 

Paradise or the third heaven usually includes the tree of life and elements of Eden. (As in Revelation) 2 Enoch in particular goes through the geography quite a bit on this point. (There are differences in 2 Enoch from how Mormons would be comfortable talking about things though since punishments of the wicked are going on there) In the NT 2 Corinthians 12:2–4 is relevant since Paul seems to be referencing these traditions along with allusions to the text of the Assumption of Moses. It's worth noting that the third heaven according to the Talmud has manna on the basis of Ps 78:23. (i.e. the rabbis tie that scripture to the third heaven, much as we find in Rev)

Anyway, I bring this up to just not that in terms of the culture of the time given the wide assortment of texts we have, it's rather easy to read Paradise as a third heaven of seven or even more.

I was imagining 7 heavens from this post.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, snowflake said:

Please tell me what you mean when you say atonement? 

Maybe I shouldn't assume that everybody knows what the Atonement of Christ is, even though it is His raison d'etre.  Nothing is of greater importance in the Judeo-Christian religion.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_nWYX43cwU .  Does that help?

Atonement is a ritual covered by various Hebrew terms: kippur “atonement, reconciliation” (as in Yom Kippur “Day of Atonement”) was a regular Israelite temple rite, as well as an integral part of every covenant renewal ceremony, as in Mosiah 3:5 – 4:8, and 1QS ii, 25-iii, 12.  

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Since the festival meant close encounter with God, the need for purification, atonement and forgiveness was readily acknowledged . . . . The ministry of atonement carried out annually by the post-exilic high priest was largely inherited from the king.  Blake Ostler, Dialogue 20/1 (Spring 1987):92-93 (66 -123), quoting John H. Eaton, Festal Drama in Deutero-Isaiah (London: SPCK, 1979), 11,33, and Ezekiel 45:17; 1 Kings 8.

 In each case the atonement (whether performed by Jesus or the Israelite high priest) is vicarious, as in the Wave-Sheaf ritual, Hebrew hēnîp, tĕnûpâ, “wave-offering” = Ugaritic np, npy “atonement, expurgation, purification, expiation.” Jesus was the Wave Sheaf on Resurrection Morning -- Easter.

The Hebrew term šillûm “repayment, recompense” appears in Alma 11:16-17,* as well as in Isaiah 34:8, Hosea 9:7, Micah 7:3 = Akkadian tašlimtu “payment” = Ugaritic tšlm “redemption, payment, atonement.”

*  “Shiblum” is an error of the 1830 edition.  The Original Manuscript reads Shillum.

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My local church is very loving and accepting, in our small church (around 700 members) we have a homeless veteran ministry, have a food bank for local families, have a ministry of supporting a Christian church in Laos (and orphanage), youth center, local orphan and foster children ministry.

I consider that biblical Christianity, compassion and love. We accept Jesus as lord and savior. 

Sounds good to me.  Do you work with Sojourners?

Edited by Robert F. Smith

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1 hour ago, snowflake said:

I have never heard this take on "paradise" before. 

Do you find any significance in the fact that the thief on the cross asked Jesus to remember him in his kingdom?  

He wants to be forgiven. There's a big Jewish tradition that it's in Paradise many souls wait. (Moses and Elijah are explicitly mentioned in many Jewish traditions) In later Judaism the Guf or storehouse of souls is often tied to the third heaven although by medieval times it was usually taken to be in the highest heaven. But in 3 Enoch 43 the storehouse of souls is in the same place the dead await judgement. It's interesting section for Mormons first because there are three classes of souls (evil, good, and intermediate -- see chapter 44). So you have both those who have died and those awaiting birth. The text also has "the spirits of the Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and the rest of the righteous whom they have brought up out of their graces and who have ascended to the Heaven." Since this is a merkabah text involving ascending to the highest heaven, receiving new names and so forth, that's significant. It's a fourth category of the righteous who have been resurrected. (Metatron who is the guide, is Enoch who has received a new name and become like God) 

Now we have to be cautious since 3 Enoch is usually dated late to the 5th century (although it purports to be from the 2cd century) Still it's quite interesting. Also unlike 2 Enoch, 3 Enoch doesn't tie Eden to the 3rd heaven.

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2 hours ago, snowflake said:

I always thought it was just 3 heavens for the LDS and one for the EV's. 

Typically we break it down into three categories based upon judgement. However Joseph does have some ambiguous notes suggesting he saw Paul's 3rd heaven as incomplete. The May 21, 1843 sermon among many mention it. (Albeit ambiguously and made more explicit in TPJS) The more interesting bit is in TPJS 304.

  • Paul ascended into the third heavens, and he could understand the three principal rounds of Jacob's ladder--the telestial, the terrestrial, and the celestial glories or kingdoms, where Paul saw and heard things which were not lawful for him to utter. I could explain a hundred fold more than I ever have of the glories of the kingdoms manifested to me in the vision, were I permitted, and were the people prepared to receive them.

The important part is the reference to Jacobs Ladder which is a Masonic reference. It has three primary rungs but seven rungs total in Masonry. So this is Joseph in a veiled way saying Paul went to the third of seven heavens. (The origin of this part of TPJS is the History Volume D1)

In TPJS 301 Joseph is explicit. "Paul saw the third heavens, and I more."

So overall I take Joseph to be saying there are three principle divisions but that within heaven there are more layers. 

Edited by clarkgoble
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On 3/16/2018 at 10:14 AM, snowflake said:

I always thought it was just 3 heavens for the LDS and one for the EV's. 

But that is not close to the whole picture!

What EV's call "Heaven" we would call "Paradise" which is a stage of the spirit world BEFORE resurrection- and AFTER resurrection come the "three" (with internal divisions) kingdoms.

So in a sense there are 4 "heavens" to put it crudely- in fact of course they are more like stations on the railway line toward exaltation.   And that also explains our ambiguity in the word "salvation"

So yes, all Christians- or really keeping in mind of the scripture which says that "every knee shall bow and confess that Jesus is the Christ"- all of humanity-  will be "saved" in some state like Paradise or at least the Telestial kingdom.  

Why all humanity? because at some stage after death at least, it will become clear to us that yes indeed Jesus IS the Son of God.   So all will eventually confess that except for the sons of perdition who will remain first in "Hell= Spirit Prison" and then in outer darkness.

So all who accept Christ either here or in the afterlife will eventually be resurrected - AFTER having been in Paradise ("Heaven") or Spirit Prison ("hell"- which can also be a temporary state, kind of like Catholic Purgatory, )until they have repented and been punished for their sins as needed.

THEN all will be resurrected into one of the three kingdoms with their internal divisions which we know just a little about

So that can be totally confusing when we speak of "salvation" because in a sense we have two meanings- at least- for "salvation".

One is the EV "heaven"- you believe and accept Christ and go to Paradise and are "saved in heaven".   That is available to all believers- eventually everyone who acknowledges Christ, even those who never heard of him on earth because they were born in China in 5000 BC etc.

To me, that is where we go far beyond the EV concept but totally include it- it's not that they are "wrong" about salvation- they just have like 25% of the information available and are stuck working with what limited understanding they have.

Hope that helps. 

The three kingdoms apply AFTER the resurrection.  So don't confuse them with "Heaven/Paradise""

For us that is the initial stage, right after death along with "Hell/Spirit Prison".

Both are temporary stages awaiting resurrection and assignment to Outer Darkness or one of the three kingdoms.

 

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On 3/16/2018 at 10:02 AM, snowflake said:

I have never heard this take on "paradise" before. 

Do you find any significance in the fact that the thief on the cross asked Jesus to remember him in his kingdom?  

So our simple explanation is that yes, Jesus, in keeping with our understanding of his doctrine, told him that he (the thief) would be with him today in Paradise or "heaven" .

So don't get confused with kingdoms here- it's simple.  Paradise is where believers initially go after death.  The thief showed himself to be a believer, therefore he went to paradise to be "with Jesus".   If the Lord saw some extra merit in his spirit- we don't know but still what is said is in perfect harmony with our beliefs

Clark is a wonderful scholar of the details of EVERYTHING and is a walking library and I admire him for his ability to pull up all these details instantly- amazing stuff!

But sometimes in answering a simple question, all the scholarly details get in the way!   Love ya Clark but you know it's true!  ;)

I am sure that somewhere in the 32nd translation of the book of Enoch mixed with 45 Macabees in the Ethiopian translation there will be some contradiction there ;) but that is the simple bone-headed way I look at it!  :P

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On 3/16/2018 at 10:10 AM, Jeanne said:

Seven heavens...I hope to hit one of them..but I have never heard this before..you scholars should write Sunday School Books!!:D

I see them simply as sub-divisions of the other kingdoms- and we don't know much about any of them really.  D&C goes into some of the three divisions in the Celestial Kingdom so three there, maybe two in the Terrestrial, the Telestial, then you have Paradise and Spirit Prison - how may is that??

It's all just words so I wouldn't get too confused.

Just remember that all the divisions we LDS are accustomed to ARE part of the "SEVEN" heavens so it's all just words and how you count them

I personally think we get our own private heaven tailored specifically for us in the larger kingdom or "neighborhood"

So there are three neighborhoods- good better and best- and we get our own "house" in the neighbor hood which might be a little better or worse than the house next door, but still in the "neighborhood"

For perfect justice I think that is the only thing that would work!  ;)  Every single person is different from every other single person.  And couples are unique couples, unique in their relationship and way of relating to each other but "one flesh"

But then through eternal progression we can "fix it up" and maybe even knock it down or move to another neighborhood of mansions.  And maybe the kids are down the street or in another nation across the world, for better or worse than we are.  Maybe we get to see them maybe not, but they are still our kids.

Since all we can KNOW about it for sure are metaphors anyway, I like my metaphor as much as any!!  ;)

 

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On 3/15/2018 at 7:30 AM, snowflake said:

Not sure where you are coming from on this. EV's don't deny Christ or are intent on hating their neighbor. I do think that some EV's  have a "holier than thou" attitude and seem to look down on their neighbors as "lost souls" in desperate need of saving, but there is some truth to that as well. This attitude prevails with the LDS, the attitude that "if I would just read the BOM and pray about it i could come to know the truth theme" runs rampant through Mormonism as well. 

LDS theology is remarkably consistent and solid to you, but to even most LDS folks they can see that with "continuing enlightenment" doctrines are changed, LDS prophets don't always agree with each other or the ancient Prophets. I mean who knows polygamy could come back tomorrow. Just in my short life i've seen massive changes to the temple rituals, blacks and the priesthood, attitudes toward homosexuality, (baptizing children of homosexuals).   

The problem is that if my neighbor has never heard of "Christ"- and my neighbor may have been born in China in 5000 BC- since we all are neighbors - then EV's think they go to hell.

That is not just, it denies Christ's justice and atonement, and is a hateful attitude.

There have been some changes in the PRESENTATION of the endowment but none in the endowment.

There have been no changes in attitudes toward of homosexuality- just a great decision to eliminate strife in families of homosexuals to not allow children to be taught conflicting lifestyles than they see at home

That is true compassion if they parents recognize it or not.  Why would one want to send their children to a church where it is taught that their parents are sinners?  The kids can study the faith all they want and get baptized when they are old enough to understand that their parents are engaged in a sinful relationship, and for the kids to go their own way.  That is compassion for the family the parents do not even understand for their own children.

We recognize that prophets are human beings who wrote what we now know as the Bible and that we all are prophets in receiving revelation for ourselves.  The only way to know who is or who is not a prophet is through direct revelation from God about who or what IS in fact His "word".

We do not slavishly accept the traditions of men as being from God unless God acknowledges it to our own hearts.

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On 3/16/2018 at 6:16 AM, snowflake said:

Please tell me what you mean when you say atonement? 

The atonement is the forgiveness of sins Jesus wrought for us through his passion in ways that we cannot understand.

Through  faith, repentance and primarily His Grace, we are forgiven and re-enter his presence in heaven and succeeding stages of progression

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