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Great apostasy in the New World Too?


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3 Nephi 12:1-2 

1 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words unto Nephi, and to those who had been called, (now the number of them who had been called, and received power and authority to baptize, was twelve) and behold, he stretched forth his hand unto the multitude, and cried unto them, saying: Blessed are ye if ye shall give heed unto the words of these twelve whom I have chosen from among you to minister unto you, and to be your servants; and unto them I have given power that they may baptize you with water; and after that ye are baptized with water, behold, I will baptize you with fire and with the Holy Ghost; therefore blessed are ye if ye shall believe in me and be baptized, after that ye have seen me and know that I am.

2 And again, more blessed are they who shall believe in your words because that ye shall testify that ye have seen me, and that ye know that I am. Yea, blessed are they who shall believe in your words, and come down into the depths of humility and be baptized, for they shall be visited with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and shall receive a remission of their sins (3 Nephi 12:1-2).

 

Am i understanding correctly the LDS teaching, that the "Great apostasy" not only happened in the old world, but the new world too? Christ called the 12 apostles and the BOM "12 disciples", giving them power and authority. Yet the New world church fell into apostasy as well? 

 

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And just an aside, the 12 disciples are likely not called apostles in the BOM because there were different than the 12 apostles.  The 12 apostles were given charge over the 12 tribes of Israel, for example, while the 12 Nephite disciples were specifically over the Nephites and Lamanites only.  

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31 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Am i understanding correctly the LDS teaching, that the "Great apostasy" not only happened in the old world, but the new world too? Christ called the 12 apostles and the BOM "12 disciples", giving them power and authority. Yet the New world church fell into apostasy as well? 

Yep, around 400 A.D. 

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Yes.  If Apostolic authority and the full gospel were on the earth there would have been no need for a restoration.
The New World church fell into the same apostasy as the Old World church

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1 hour ago, snowflake said:

3 Nephi 12:1-2 

1 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words unto Nephi, and to those who had been called, (now the number of them who had been called, and received power and authority to baptize, was twelve) and behold, he stretched forth his hand unto the multitude, and cried unto them, saying: Blessed are ye if ye shall give heed unto the words of these twelve whom I have chosen from among you to minister unto you, and to be your servants; and unto them I have given power that they may baptize you with water; and after that ye are baptized with water, behold, I will baptize you with fire and with the Holy Ghost; therefore blessed are ye if ye shall believe in me and be baptized, after that ye have seen me and know that I am.

2 And again, more blessed are they who shall believe in your words because that ye shall testify that ye have seen me, and that ye know that I am. Yea, blessed are they who shall believe in your words, and come down into the depths of humility and be baptized, for they shall be visited with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and shall receive a remission of their sins (3 Nephi 12:1-2).

 

Am i understanding correctly the LDS teaching, that the "Great apostasy" not only happened in the old world, but the new world too? Christ called the 12 apostles and the BOM "12 disciples", giving them power and authority. Yet the New world church fell into apostasy as well? 

 

It was all one big tergiversationary hot mess!

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58 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Yes.  If Apostolic authority and the full gospel were on the earth there would have been no need for a restoration.
The New World church fell into the same apostasy as the Old World church

Was the New World church set up with apostles, prophets, the 70, bishops etc like the current LDS church? What was missing when you say the full gospel?

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

And just an aside, the 12 disciples are likely not called apostles in the BOM because there were different than the 12 apostles.  The 12 apostles were given charge over the 12 tribes of Israel, for example, while the 12 Nephite disciples were specifically over the Nephites and Lamanites only.  

Who was given authority over the gentiles?

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14 minutes ago, CV75 said:

It was all one big tergiversationary hot mess!

Since Christ set up both churches (new world and old world), gave them the "authority", gave them a prophet.... what did he get wrong that led to this "hot mess"? 

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21 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Since Christ set up both churches (new world and old world), gave them the "authority", gave them a prophet.... what did he get wrong that led to this "hot mess"? 

It's not about what he got wrong.  It's about what we got wrong.

Think of the church as an individual.  If a person is converted to the gospel through the Spirit then falls away, does that mean that Christ failed for trying?  Think of how many individuals were blessed from the institution of His ancient church.  Even in the great apostasy, His message continued to bless the lives of millions, and laid the preparatory foundation for the restoration in the last days.   

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39 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Who was given authority over the gentiles?

I’m not really sure. Matthew 19:28 says that the 12 apostles will judge the 12 tribes of Israel. There is no mention of the gentiles. 

It’s an interesting question. 

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17 minutes ago, snowflake said:

I will accept BOM scripture as evidence for your claim. 

The Book of Moroni (the last Nephite prophet) speaks of the final destruction of the Nephites.  Moroni was the sole surviving priesthood holder.  The chapter heading of the last chapter of the Book of Mormon states "About A.D. 421".  We don't know how long Moroni lived after that, but his death finalized the great apostasy in the Americas.  

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@snowflake, may I also point out that (if you are a Protestant) you also believe that the Christian church fell away from the Truth for centuries.  Therefore, unless you're going to tell us how you believe the Catholic or Orthodox faith is 100% correct, it doesn't make any sense to criticize the LDS church in this regard.

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1 hour ago, snowflake said:

I will accept BOM scripture as evidence for your claim. 

Alma 45:10-14  Behold, I perceive that this very people, the Nephites, according to the spirit of revelation which is in me, in four hundred years from the time that Jesus Christ shall manifest himself unto them, shall dwindle in unbelief.
Yea, and then shall they see wars and pestilences, yea, famines and bloodshed, even until the people of Nephi shall become extinct
Yea, and this because they shall dwindle in unbelief and fall into the works of darkness, and lasciviousness, and all manner of iniquities; yea, I say unto you, that because they shall sin against so great light and knowledge, yea, I say unto you, that from that day, even the fourth generation shall not all pass away before this great iniquity shall come.
And when that great day cometh, behold, the time very soon cometh that those who are now, or the seed of those who are now numbered among the people of Nephi, shall no more be numbered among the people of Nephi.
But whosoever remaineth, and is not destroyed in that great and dreadful day, shall be numbered among the Lamanites, and shall become like unto them, all, save it be a few who shall be called the disciples of the Lord; and them shall the Lamanites pursue even until they shall become extinct. And now, because of iniquity, this prophecy shall be fulfilled.

Edited by Robert F. Smith
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25 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

@snowflake, may I also point out that (if you are a Protestant) you also believe that the Christian church fell away from the Truth for centuries.  Therefore, unless you're going to tell us how you believe the Catholic or Orthodox faith is 100% correct, it doesn't make any sense to criticize the LDS church in this regard.

I find it very interesting how the LDS claim that New World church only lasted for 400 years after Christ, then completely disappeared (except for the 3 nephites). The Old World Christian church survived. You are correct that the Catholics and Orthodox faiths claim direct lineage to the NT apostles, and from that there are literally billions of worldwide Christians coming from these roots. 

Jane, I am asking questions regarding the LDS faith in a respectful manner, I was raised LDS, In my short lifetime I can point out several signifcant changes the current LDS sect of Mormonism has adopted. Are you suggesting that the LDS faith hasn't altered it's doctrine? 

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14 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Alma 45:10-14  Behold, I perceive that this very people, the Nephites, according to the spirit of revelation which is in me, in four hundred years from the time that Jesus Christ shall manifest himself unto them, shall dwindle in unbelief.
Yea, and then shall they see wars and pestilences, yea, famines and bloodshed, even until the people of Nephi shall become extinct
Yea, and this because they shall dwindle in unbelief and fall into the works of darkness, and lasciviousness, and all manner of iniquities; yea, I say unto you, that because they shall sin against so great light and knowledge, yea, I say unto you, that from that day, even the fourth generation shall not all pass away before this great iniquity shall come.
And when that great day cometh, behold, the time very soon cometh that those who are now, or the seed of those who are now numbered among the people of Nephi, shall no more be numbered among the people of Nephi.
But whosoever remaineth, and is not destroyed in that great and dreadful day, shall be numbered among the Lamanites, and shall become like unto them, all, save it be a few who shall be called the disciples of the Lord; and them shall the Lamanites pursue even until they shall become extinct. And now, because of iniquity, this prophecy shall be fulfilled.

Thank you.

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1 hour ago, snowflake said:

Since Christ set up both churches (new world and old world), gave them the "authority", gave them a prophet.... what did he get wrong that led to this "hot mess"? 

He didn’t do anything wrong. Men and women have agency. We are free to make bad decisions if we choose to. 

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1 hour ago, pogi said:

It's not about what he got wrong.  It's about what we got wrong.

Think of the church as an individual.  If a person is converted to the gospel through the Spirit then falls away, does that mean that Christ failed for trying?  Think of how many individuals were blessed from the institution of His ancient church.  Even in the great apostasy, His message continued to bless the lives of millions, and laid the preparatory foundation for the restoration in the last days.   

Since we can trace the Catholic church and Orthodox church back to the Apostles, it seems like the LDS claim of "total Apostasy" is without evidence. Is there any evidence that shows these church's line of authority is erroneous? 

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6 minutes ago, snowflake said:

I find it very interesting how the LDS claim that New World church only lasted for 400 years after Christ, then completely disappeared (except for the 3 nephites). The Old World Christian church survived.

What do you find interesting about it?  The Christians of the New World were completely destroyed off the earth.  While many were murdered in the Old World, they were not completely destroyed.  Remnants of the Christian church therefore survived. 

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5 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Since we can trace the Catholic church and Orthodox church back to the Apostles, it seems like the LDS claim of "total Apostasy" is without evidence. Is there any evidence that shows these church's line of authority is erroneous? 

Joseph Smith's first vision and the restoration is all the evidence I need. 

Edited by pogi
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