Disciplinary, how many times?

[Duncan]

How many times can you get disciplined in the church? in terms of excommunication and disfellowshipment? is it 1 excommunication and 3 times disfellowshipment or 2 disfellowshipment and 2 times excommunication 

[smac97]

I don't think there is any particular limit.  Such things are handled on a case-by-case basis.

Thanks,

-Smac

[pogi]

70 X 7

[rchorse]

As many as it takes*.

 

 

*With the caveat that, from what I've seen, each additional time someone strays or leaves completely, it gets harder to return.

[CV75]

43 minutes ago, Duncan said:

How many times can you get disciplined in the church? in terms of excommunication and disfellowshipment? is it 1 excommunication and 3 times disfellowshipment or 2 disfellowshipment and 2 times excommunication 

Well, there’s also major and minor excommunication; a jure and ab homine; latæ and ferendæ sententiæ; pubic and occult; and vitandi (shunned) and tolerati (tolerated).

In the Southern USA, exitcommunicatation is allowed.

Edited March 5, 2018 by CV75

[rongo]

Adultery does carry with it a one-strike rule when excommunication ensues. I've seen this carried out when those who have been rebaptized and blessings restored and have done it again are not allowed rebaptisim. 

D&C 42:

24 Thou shalt not commit adultery; and he that committeth adultery, and repenteth not, shall be cast out.

25 But he that has committed adultery and repents with all his heart, and forsaketh it, and doeth it no more, thou shalt forgive;

26 But if he doeth it again, he shall not be forgiven, but shall be cast out.

[Gray]

4 minutes ago, rongo said:

Adultery does carry with it a one-strike rule when excommunication ensues. I've seen this carried out when those who have been rebaptized and blessings restored and have done it again are not allowed rebaptisim. 

 

 

Is that the actual policy too, or is it just in the D&C?

[rongo]

31 minutes ago, Gray said:

Is that the actual policy too, or is it just in the D&C?

I'd have to look. I suspect it's just in the D&C, but as I said, I have known SP who interpret it literally. i.e., two strikes, and you're out.But those same SP have allowed 2X rebaptism for non-adultery offenses.

Ideally, it should be very, very rare for repentant people to be excommunicated more than once. One would hope.  

[Duncan]

Somebody, in theory,  could get exed 10 times and come back and come back and come back? 

[The Nehor]

53 minutes ago, pogi said:

70 X 7

Stole my response.  

[rongo]

1 minute ago, Duncan said:

Somebody, in theory,  could get exed 10 times and come back and come back and come back? 

In theory, depending on the offenses, but in practice, I think leaders would be very, very wary about revolving door repentance like that. I think the Office of the First Presidency would also refuse to ratify the stake/ward action if it were as extreme as the hypothetical. I would expect instructions for a long, long waiting/trial period to ensure real repentance. 

[cdowis]

In any case, someone can always appeal to 1st Presidency

[drums12]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

Adultery does carry with it a one-strike rule when excommunication ensues. I've seen this carried out when those who have been rebaptized and blessings restored and have done it again are not allowed rebaptisim. 

 

 

I have a friend from addiction recovery group who was recently excommunicated for the 2nd time for adultery.  He was excommunicated in 2012, rebaptized in late 2013 or early 2014, and blessings were restored a year later.  I remember thinking that it was all too soon, given that he had struggled with sexual addiction issues since he was a youth.  In any case, he certainly was not told that this recent excommunication was permanent.  He was given hope, although this time I'm sure a much longer period will be required before re-baptism and after that, a much longer period before blessings/priesthood being restored.  I think that scripture can be interpreted more than one way.  One interpretation is that an adulterer, if repentant, can avoid excommunication (which is often the case), but if does it again shall be excommunicated.  It doesn't say "cast out permanently."  

Also,  I was disfellowshipped twice.  The first time was for about 9 months.  The second time over a year.  The first time I really felt love, and that it was the Lord's will.  The second time I had no such feelings.  One counselor in my bishopric seemed like he really wanted to escalate it to the Stake and recommend excommunication.  After my re-instatement the last time, I was almost immediately given two callings.  The next year I volunteered (foolishly) for a third.  I think this, at least in small part, helped me get to where I am today (inactive although I haven't repeated the transgressions that caused discipline).   i was in no place spiritually to take on so much responsibility.  Leaders need to realize that after one has been dis-fellowshipped and/or excommunicated, they are still weak - many spiritual muscles have atrophied.  

Edited March 5, 2018 by drums12

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

Adultery does carry with it a one-strike rule when excommunication ensues. I've seen this carried out when those who have been rebaptized and blessings restored and have done it again are not allowed rebaptisim. 

I've no idea of the current policy but in the recent past it most definitely wasn't the policy. I imagine this is handled on a case by case basis.

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Stole my response.  

Uh..uh...it was mine..you can't have it..neither can I.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

How many times can you get disciplined in the church? in terms of excommunication and disfellowshipment? is it 1 excommunication and 3 times disfellowshipment or 2 disfellowshipment and 2 times excommunication 

Everything is based on the circumstances, not an equation. However once excommunicated, it is very, very difficult to return to full fellowship. I have never know anyone excommunicated twice, who ever made it back. 

[e-eye]

Seems like when I was younger I thought it was 3 strikes but now after reading these responses I am thinking I may have got it confused with baseball.  

[rpn]

I would hope it would be as often as the person desired to repent.    The scriptures may say twice (in the NT which was a completely different social world), but ultimately wouldn't that be God's to judge.   I would hope mortal leaders would leave the final decisions to Him who knows all things.

[strappinglad]

In the OT adultery was punishable by death. We've come a long ways since then. Mind you, some may think we are moving in the wrong direction. I wonder what the policy will be when Christ rules.

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, rpn said:

I would hope it would be as often as the person desired to repent.    The scriptures may say twice (in the NT which was a completely different social world), but ultimately wouldn't that be God's to judge.   I would hope mortal leaders would leave the final decisions to Him who knows all things.

Ultimately it is God's to judge and no Priesthood holder worth the ordination would declare their excommunication to be damnation (or rebaptism and restoration of blessings as exaltation for that matter).

If I were a Bishop or Stake President I would pray long and hard before rebaptizing a serial adulterer.

[HappyJackWagon]

19 hours ago, rongo said:

Adultery does carry with it a one-strike rule when excommunication ensues. I've seen this carried out when those who have been rebaptized and blessings restored and have done it again are not allowed rebaptisim. 

 

 

The atonement isn't capable of saving those who are repeat sinners? Is it God who won't forgive, or merely the church?

[rongo]

18 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The atonement isn't capable of saving those who are repeat sinners? Is it God who won't forgive, or merely the church?

Of course it is, in principle, but the scriptures are also clear that the earlier sins return with interest to repeat sinners. When dealing specifically with serial adultery and things like that, you can't just keep accepting people at their word that they have really repented this time. The time period lengthens exponentially, and this is a big factor with situations requiring First Presidency approval --- or when the First Presidency intervenes in situations that don't require their involvement on their face. I have seen minimum five year waiting periods imposed by the FP in situations not covered in the handbook (serial or repeat offenses). While it can be a tough pill to swallow for a person in that boat, serial adultery and things like it are treated very seriously by the FP, and they intervene if they feel that stakes are being too lenient or forbearing. 

Ultimately, the attitude and repentance has to be of a "never again" nature when it is very serious things. Day-to-day things we repent of on our own I think are quite different from serious, repeated moral failings.

[rongo]

18 hours ago, drums12 said:

Also,  I was disfellowshipped twice.  The first time was for about 9 months.  The second time over a year.  The first time I really felt love, and that it was the Lord's will.  The second time I had no such feelings.  One counselor in my bishopric seemed like he really wanted to escalate it to the Stake and recommend excommunication.  After my re-instatement the last time, I was almost immediately given two callings.  The next year I volunteered (foolishly) for a third.  I think this, at least in small part, helped me get to where I am today (inactive although I haven't repeated the transgressions that caused discipline).   i was in no place spiritually to take on so much responsibility.  Leaders need to realize that after one has been dis-fellowshipped and/or excommunicated, they are still weak - many spiritual muscles have atrophied.  

Absolutely! Going through the coming back process is very difficult, even for people who are "strong" and oriented well towards the Church and the discipline. Leaders need to be very mindful of that. 

[Duncan]

I passed out at a dance when I was a youth and got 3 months informal probation, "it doesn't look good for a priest to pass out on friday and bless the sacrament on sunday" I was like 'just because you're old and dance deficient doesn't mean the rest of us have to be', So, when I hear that people get  a woman pregnant and nothing happens to them, disciplinary wise, I am totally dumbstruck, I got three months no sacrament for not eating adequatly for a dance and these goof offs, do all that and got nothing? You kind of build a spiritual callous I guess, of what is acceptable and what isn't

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I passed out at a dance when I was a youth and got 3 months informal probation, "it doesn't look good for a priest to pass out on friday and bless the sacrament on sunday" I was like 'just because you're old and dance deficient doesn't mean the rest of us have to be', So, when I hear that people get  a woman pregnant and nothing happens to them, disciplinary wise, I am totally dumbstruck, I got three months no sacrament for not eating adequatly for a dance and these goof offs, do all that and got nothing? You kind of build a spiritual callous I guess, of what is acceptable and what isn't

That is insane!!