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Maidservant

Church Finances Are Used In the Lord's Way For the Lord's Work

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No, I didn't see it as a slam.  I am sure I overreacted myself with my way too long post.  My sleeping pill was kicking in (yes, middle of the day, sleep deprivation is a brat at times) and I tend to get way too wordy and detailed oriented during those times.  Usually I control myself and delete, but my usual caution was probably missing because of the odd hour.

Length of posts can feel offensive even when they are meant to be explanatory, I have found.  It just gets too much.  

That last post should have been the one I posted first.

In summary (because I am still sleep deprived if not drugged), there are two reasons Tacenda shouldn't be posting comments like "I am a nobody"...first off and vastly most important, it is completely false.  Second, very important to remember is that it is probably not sending the message she thinks it is sending, it may be coming across in a negative and manipulative way just because some of us have had some hard experiences with people who use it that way...and it is hard not to automatically go there when the phrase pops up again.

Edited by Calm
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On 3/5/2018 at 6:18 PM, Maidservant said:

A lot of people start from the primary position that there is something dirty and unspiritual about money.  But I understand money to be neutral, and it can be made spiritual just like ALL earthly things can be made spiritual.

Yes! Like I said in my third point "The leaders of a false religion buy mansions and jewelry, and use millions of dollars for their own comfort. Our religion uses millions of dollars to invite others to come unto Christ. In other words our church uses it's money for missionary work and to create places worship"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EbArH1_WjA

Edited by SamuelTheLamanite

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11 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Yes! Like I said in my third point "The leaders of a false religion buy mansions and jewelry, and use millions of dollars for their own comfort. Our religion uses millions of dollars to invite others to come unto Christ. In other words our church uses it's money for missionary work and to create places worship"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EbArH1_WjA

I was thinking about this today. Even though I don't like that the church spends so much on temples, you're right that our leaders aren't lining their pockets with tithing money like these other church leaders you mention, but building beautiful temples for members to make sacred covenants in. The members of the twelve live pretty modest lives comparably. 

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On 3/7/2018 at 8:37 AM, Tacenda said:

My problem is with the choices to build such extravagant temples. I can see I've hit a nerve or a line that I should not have crossed. And if I apologise it will be empty because I seem to not learn from my mistakes in the past on this subject. So moving on and maybe out. 

FYI. Fifteen hundred dollars is not excessive for a quality vase.......

You’re simply not in touch with people who decorate their homes in a quality manner. 

So get off your soapbox. You’re out of line. 

Edited by mrmarklin

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On 3/9/2018 at 12:34 PM, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Yes! Like I said in my third point "The leaders of a false religion buy mansions and jewelry, and use millions of dollars for their own comfort. Our religion uses millions of dollars to invite others to come unto Christ. In other words our church uses it's money for missionary work and to create places worship"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EbArH1_WjA

True. Has anyone here been to the Vatican?  Our temples are nothing to St Peter’s Basilica by a long shot.

 

the current Pope refuses to live in the normal palace, but lives in relatively modest quarters in another building in Vatican City. 

Edited by mrmarklin

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1 minute ago, mrmarklin said:

FYI. Fifteen hundred dollars is not excessive for a quality vase.......

You’re simply not in touch with people who decorate their homes in a fitting manner. 

So get off your soapbox. You’re out of line. 

I'm so out of touch, good!

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3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm so out of touch, good!

Yes, I really think you are.

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8 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Yes, I really think you are.

I see finer things, and I think waste of money, when the money could be spent where it's needed.   

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2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I see finer things, and I think waste of money, when the money could be spent where it's needed.   

You sound like a Marxist 

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14 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

You sound like a Marxist 

Mr. Marklin, can someone have an opinion without the name calling? Also, saying I'm out of line, what exactly did I do to cause you to say that?

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You did nothing but accuse the Church of extravagance.  Somehow, you know better than the prophets.

I didn’t call you a Marxist. But your arguments about needs are right out of Das Kapital..

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8 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

You did nothing but accuse the Church of extravagance.  Somehow, you know better than the prophets.

I didn’t call you a Marxist. But your arguments about needs are right out of Das Kapital..

Oh, pray tell when LDS are suppose to believe that prophets are infallible?

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5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Oh, pray tell when LDS are suppose to believe that prophets are infallible?

Of course the prophets are not infallible, but they have been doing this stuff a lot longer than you or I.  I personally would rely on their judgment in the instance of a vase.  Sheesh..........:rolleyes:

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22 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I see finer things, and I think waste of money, when the money could be spent where it's needed.   

Where is money not being spent, but is needed?

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On 2018-03-12 at 10:21 PM, Tacenda said:

I see finer things, and I think waste of money, when the money could be spent where it's needed.   

When you look in your home and see finer things, at least finer things than the majority of the world has, do you think waste of money or because it belongs to you and it makes you happy, do you care for that finer thing?

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7 hours ago, Calm said:

When you look in your home and see finer things, at least finer things than the majority of the world has, do you think waste of money or because it belongs to you and it makes you happy, do you care for that finer thing?

It depends on what you mean by finer things? I do believe I should not be hypocritical and I should be out there helping the poor and needy like I'm telling the church to do more of. I just wonder if we could not spend the most for something thinking it's got to be the best for the temple. I picture God/Jesus wanting that extra money going into a fund for the poor/needy instead. I've always been this way even with the Catholic church and their gold ornamental motifs etc. 

And to answer the question on what I think when I see finer things out in the world, I think there is a line that can be crossed. And the line may be fuzzy too. I feel the people that live in third world countries that look at those in America, they probably think we're gluttonous in our homes that to others in the US may think are very modest. So a pretty interesting paradigm. 

I approve though, that the LDS members paying into the tithing fund do deserve to have a nice temple and I do love that the church doesn't keep that money for the top tier. And that comparing our leaders to others is like night and day. I don't believe the church does anything sketchy, just wonder about the waste as in overspending on certain items. I did read an article, but don't have a link, about someone that worked in the church office building and they saw a lot of waste. But the church is also a corporation, and that happens. 

 

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14 hours ago, Rain said:

Where is money not being spent, but is needed?

Rain, I see other corporations and churches spending more than our church per what is taken in. That's all. And when you look around, which I know you have, don't you see how many thousands of needs there are? And I don't mean pouring money into countries that will use it unwisely. 

I'm glad to hear in the last few years all the money the church has given. But my old mantra has been "I want more", which I think will happen. But for so long the church has been about temples, missionary work etc. It's only been a few short years since the church has added to the three-fold mission to become a four-fold mission. So time will tell, I believe it will get better. https://www.mormonwiki.com/Four-fold_Mission_of_the_Church

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2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

It depends on what you mean by finer things? I do believe I should not be hypocritical and I should be out there helping the poor and needy like I'm telling the church to do more of. I just wonder if we could not spend the most for something thinking it's got to be the best for the temple. I picture God/Jesus wanting that extra money going into a fund for the poor/needy instead. 

Do you see the OT scriptures describing how to build the temple as false then?

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55 minutes ago, Calm said:

Do you see the OT scriptures describing how to build the temple as false then?

Well, the EV's say there is no need for temples now that Christ sacrificed on the cross, where before they gave animal sacrifices in the temples. But I don't know what I believe currently. Oh, and so many other religions have temples to worship in I'm finding out now, so I guess the LDS should have them for their purposes as well. 

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5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I see other corporations and churches spending more than our church per what is taken in.

Since the church keeps its finances private, how could you possibly see this? Where are you getting the numbers for inlays / outlays to make such a comparison?

 

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9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Rain, I see other corporations and churches spending more than our church per what is taken in.

I don't think we can tell this.  Now I can understand how some would like to be able to see this, but since we don't have the figures I don't think we can really know how we stack up against others. 

One of the things I like is how the church supports agencies that are already out there. They have found that it is often better to do that then start up a new program. The organizations already have connections, education, know how and we can learn from that. Then the church comes in and helps with money or volunteers. One organization I know has received 3 grants this last year from the church - 99% of the people involved with that organization have no idea about it. The organization has also shared with other charities how to also get this help. 

Basically I'm saying that the assumption shouldn't be made that the church doesn't help enough unless you see the whole picture.

Quote

That's all. And when you look around, which I know you have, don't you see how many thousands of needs there are? And I don't mean pouring money into countries that will use it unwisely. 

I do see a lot of needs. That is one reason I asked, "where is money NOT being spent?" Do you know of needs specifically where the church is not spending it, but should? 

Where should the church draw the line of decorating a beautiful temple and spending on charity? I know that I have this same conversation with myself and my husband and the Lord - is the Lord ok if I eat out tonight? What if I buy a decoration for my home? A new car? Or should I always eat at home, have no decorations and buy old beaters so I have money left for the poor? If you and I are both Christian and have inspiration should you, I and the church all have the same line?

Quote

I'm glad to hear in the last few years all the money the church has given. But my old mantra has been "I want more", which I think will happen. But for so long the church has been about temples, missionary work etc. It's only been a few short years since the church has added to the three-fold mission to become a four-fold mission. So time will tell, I believe it will get better. https://www.mormonwiki.com/Four-fold_Mission_of_the_Church

I've always found it kind of funny that we needed to go to a 4 fold mission. To me caring for the poor and needy was part of perfecting the saints. Now it's emphasis is just more pronounced. It's not like the church suddenly went into action with it - they have been caring for the poor and the needy since the beginning. It's how Relief Society got its whole start. It's how fast offerInga came about. And disaster relief that has been going on for a long, long time. And education in more poor countries.

Perhaps adding the 4th thing up helped members who weren't getting it understand- if so then that is a good thing. And the church might communicate better about taking care of needs now. I just don't feel the church taking care of the poor and needy is anything new. 

I highly reccomend a tour of the distribution center in Salt Lake and time spent volunteering in welfare square. It might help you see much more than you have.

Edited by Rain
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4 hours ago, Amulek said:

Since the church keeps its finances private, how could you possibly see this? Where are you getting the numbers for inlays / outlays to make such a comparison?

 

I'm just going by the stats I've read in the past. I will refrain from commenting on this subject again. I need to get a grip. I admit it now. 

http://www.mormonism101.com/2015/01/the-corporate-structure-of-mormon-church.html

"Between 1985 and 2011, the Mormon church also made $ 1.4 billion humanitarian cash donations according to this fact sheet. While this is a mind-boggling number in absolute terms, it come down to less than 2% of the lowest annual tithing revenue estimate per year – orders of magnitude less than other US churches (Ostling & Ostling 2007, p. 132). The 2013 Welfare Fact Sheet no longer lists cash contributions."

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20 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm just going by the stats I've read in the past. I will refrain from commenting on this subject again. I need to get a grip. I admit it now. 

http://www.mormonism101.com/2015/01/the-corporate-structure-of-mormon-church.html

"Between 1985 and 2011, the Mormon church also made $ 1.4 billion humanitarian cash donations according to this fact sheet. While this is a mind-boggling number in absolute terms, it come down to less than 2% of the lowest annual tithing revenue estimate per year – orders of magnitude less than other US churches (Ostling & Ostling 2007, p. 132). The 2013 Welfare Fact Sheet no longer lists cash contributions."

The $1.4 billion is only "humanitarian" aid. The church has other forms giving to the poor and the needy as well. "Welfare" (which benefits non members as well) is one of those. There may or may not be others.

Last fall I bought sewing items for my cub scouts to make sewing kits for refugees. Last spring I bought food items for them to make treats bags for an organization who gives them to poor and often abused women who need to go to court with their children so their children can have something to eat while they wait all day. Neither of these came out of the humanitarian fund or the welfare fund. They came out of the primary budget and was probably about 80% of what I spend for the year. A few years ago I suggested anther thing to my RS and that came out of the RS budget.

The Just Serve website cost and still costs money to run. Is that part of the Humanitarian budget? I don't know. It is not like the other things mentioned so there is a good possibility it is not "humanitarian". I have seen a lot of good things that have helped the poor and the needy through it. Just yesterday I met a family who found an organization through it and donated lots of food and hygiene kits. 

Many times ham, paper dishes and other things are donated for funerals - some of that comes out of welfare budgets. Sometimes it comes out of RS budgets. Those people may or may not be poor at the time, but they are needy and I can tell you from personal experience how healing it is.

I would expect that other projects have come through other budgets as well, but are never going to be reported by the church as money given to poor and needy because it came out of another budget. "Humanitarian" money shows just part of the picture.

I'm sorry if it seems like I am pounding on this. It is just one of the few things I know about and the more I learn the more I see how much I, personally, am missing of where the church IS giving to the poor and needy so it frustrates me when the church is criticized over a tiny sliver of evidence. It truly amazes me how often I find the church is helping here and there and then on top of that giving us opportunities to open our own hearts even more. It's beautiful. :wub:

 

 

Edited by Rain
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40 minutes ago, Rain said:

The $1.4 billion is only "humanitarian" aid. The church has other forms giving to the poor and the needy as well. "Welfare" (which benefits non members as well) is one of those. There may or may not be others.

Last fall I bought sewing items for my cub scouts to make sewing kits for refugees. Last spring I bought food items for them to make treats bags for an organization who gives them to poor and often abused women who need to go to court with their children so their children can have something to eat while they wait all day. Neither of these came out of the humanitarian fund or the welfare fund. They came out of the primary budget and was probably about 80% of what I spend for the year. A few years ago I suggested anther thing to my RS and that came out of the RS budget.

The Just Serve website cost and still costs money to run. Is that part of the Humanitarian budget? I don't know. It is not like the other things mentioned so there is a good possibility it is not "humanitarian", but I have seen a lot of good things that have helped the poor and the needy through it. Just yesterday I met a family who found an organization through it and donated lots of food and hygiene kits. 

Many times ham, paperwork and other things are donated for funerals - some of that comes out of welfare budgets. Sometimes it comes out of RS budgets. Those people may or may not be poor at the time, but they are needy and I can tell you from personal experience how healing it is.

I would expect that other projects have come through other budgets as well, but are never going to be reported by the church as money given to poor and needy because it came out of another budget. "Humanitarian" money shows just part of the picture.

I'm sorry if it seems like I am pounding on this. It is just one of the few things I know about and the more I learn the more I see how much I personally am missing of where the church IS giving to the poor and needy so it frustrates me when the church is criticized over a tiny sliver of evidence. It truly amazes me how often I find the church is helping here and there and then on top of that giving us opportunities to open our own hearts even more. It's beautiful. :wub:

 

 

Rain, as I read your awesome post, I see that some of that is money you donated, I am always glad when the church gives the members credit when they say it came from members/humanitarian fund. I will move on and try not to drudge this thing up anymore. 

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1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Rain, as I read your awesome post, I see that some of that is money you donated, I am always glad when the church gives the members credit when they say it came from members/humanitarian fund. I will move on and try not to drudge this thing up anymore. 

Rep point.

Just to be clear. I wasn't talking about money I donated. I bought the items, but was reimbursed out of the primary or RS budgets. There are many items personally donated by members and that's what I was talking about when I said "giving us opportunities", but what I was trying to show in the bulk of my post was that there are many places where the church gives to the poor and needy, but you may never know because they are not in the budget where you would normally expect them to be - so even if the church put out a general "this is where the money goes" thing out there you would miss many things happening on watd and stake levels. 

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