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Maidservant

Church Finances Are Used In the Lord's Way For the Lord's Work

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A recent lds.org article that may be of interest to some, as Church finances are often a topic here.  I would consider this an 'at the present moment' snapshot of how the Church is officially talking about their finances, from their perspective.

An article, but it does have the video as well as a link to the full talk transcript.  I also found it interesting that it was given at a symposium whose entire subject was the Church's economic history.  Sweet.

Presiding Bishop talks about the principles behind the church's financial freedom and abundance (my words)

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Just a few questions I would like to ask if ever given the opportunity.

1.  If the finances are always used appropriately why not report them?  It seems like that would be great publicity to show all the wealth working towards a good cause.

2.  Why does the Lord require expensive temples?  Wouldn't a modest building satisfy the ordinance requirements just as well as an expensive building?

3.  Why is tithing a larger focus than other commandments?  Do we have an annual "keeping the sabbath day holy" settlement meeting?  If money is not the focus then why does it seem that finance's get a disproportionate amount of attention? (or is that just my perception?)

My stake president once told me what when a General Authority visited our stake the first question asked was "what percentage of the stake are full tithe payers"?  From that they knew exactly how spiritual everyone in the stake was.  That always bothered me

Edited by sjdawg
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6 hours ago, sjdawg said:

Just a few questions I would like to ask if ever given the opportunity.

1.  If the finances are always used appropriately why not report them?  It seems like that would be great publicity to show all the wealth working towards a good cause.

2.  Why does the Lord require expensive temples?  Wouldn't a modest building satisfy the ordinance requirements just as well as an expensive building?

3.  Why is tithing a larger focus than other commandments?  Do we have an annual "keeping the sabbath day holy" settlement meeting?  If money is not the focus then why does it seem that finance's get a disproportionate amount of attention? (or is that just my perception?)

My stake president once told me what when a General Authority visited our stake the first question asked was "what percentage of the stake are full tithe payers"?  From that they knew exactly how spiritual everyone in the stake was.  That always bothered me

Hi :). 

#3

I think what is the largest focus in the church is up to individual perspective and experience, because I would have said something else (i.e. sexual purity commandments).  So maybe it's not so much what the Church focuses on as what is in large focus in our lives?

I LOVE tithing settlement, and I see it as something much more than about money.  I look forward to when my bishop prays (and some of them have knelt) over my family and unlocks the blessings of heaven for my family (for the next year).  I count on that to the degree as I see it as a quasi-ordinance.  I see this as the unlocking of miracles in my life.  And for what?  For my tiny mite.

A lot of people start from the primary position that there is something dirty and unspiritual about money.  But I understand money to be neutral, and it can be made spiritual just like ALL earthly things can be made spiritual.

I also upside down the perspective that 'we get into heaven by paying money i.e. tithing' to--wow, we can be worthy of church blessings (NOT heaven) by the smallest and weakest thing, which is the imparting of 10 percent of what the Lord already gave us.  We don't have to be perfect in anything.  We just have to lay down a portion that's not ours to begin with.  So God isn't asking us for ANYTHING.  We complain about the 10 percent, but we don't hear God complaining about the 90 percent of HIS providence that he gave to us and that we are keeping and not giving back.

I know this won't answer every question in your heart (keep knocking and asking! :) ), but these are some perspectives I've cultivated.

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7 hours ago, sjdawg said:

Just a few questions I would like to ask if ever given the opportunity.

1.  If the finances are always used appropriately why not report them?  It seems like that would be great publicity to show all the wealth working towards a good cause.

2.  Why does the Lord require expensive temples?  Wouldn't a modest building satisfy the ordinance requirements just as well as an expensive building?

3.  Why is tithing a larger focus than other commandments?  Do we have an annual "keeping the sabbath day holy" settlement meeting?  If money is not the focus then why does it seem that finance's get a disproportionate amount of attention? (or is that just my perception?)

My stake president once told me what when a General Authority visited our stake the first question asked was "what percentage of the stake are full tithe payers"?  From that they knew exactly how spiritual everyone in the stake was.  That always bothered me

As for #3, i think tithing settlement is about reconciling records and making sure the money is where the members think it is.  Other than tithing settlement though, i don't think that tithing get's more of a focus than other commandments.  Other than tithing settlement, what do you see as a 'disproportionate amount of attention' going towards that commandment?

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:DThis whole topic is the only reason that I might hell...admission is free..and you pay to get out. (just razzin)!

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18 hours ago, sjdawg said:

Just a few questions I would like to ask if ever given the opportunity.

1.  If the finances are always used appropriately why not report them?  It seems like that would be great publicity to show all the wealth working towards a good cause.

2.  Why does the Lord require expensive temples?  Wouldn't a modest building satisfy the ordinance requirements just as well as an expensive building?

3.  Why is tithing a larger focus than other commandments?  Do we have an annual "keeping the sabbath day holy" settlement meeting?  If money is not the focus then why does it seem that finance's get a disproportionate amount of attention? (or is that just my perception?)

My stake president once told me what when a General Authority visited our stake the first question asked was "what percentage of the stake are full tithe payers"?  From that they knew exactly how spiritual everyone in the stake was.  That always bothered me

1. Well, for one, the world would see many of those funds as a waste. How often do critics point out how many people a temple could have fed? Some of our projects seem to have even less utility to outside eyes.

2. I didn't even read that question before answering the first. Wow, kind of cliche. God does not require expensive temples. He requires the best we can when it comes to constructing temples.

3. It is not. It is your perception. Other then Tithing Settlement which serves an explicit purpose in regards to temple worthiness we have maybe one tithing focused meeting for each of the hours of the three hour block a year. It takes a disproportionate amount of my time but that is because I am a clerk and actually have to mess with donations, budgets, and checks but I am not the norm.

Your Stake President was right. It is a good way of gauging the strength of a stake. It is a fantastic indicator. It does not exist in a vacuum though. It has been my experience that very few long-term spiritually weak members pay tithing. It is not necessarily the money but the faith behind it that manifests itself in many areas. It is hard to put a number on how kind or forgiving or sacrificing a stake is but tithing tends to correlate with those other attributes quite well.

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11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

1. Well, for one, the world would see many of those funds as a waste. How often do critics point out how many people a temple could have fed? Some of our projects seem to have even less utility to outside eyes.

2. I didn't even read that question before answering the first. Wow, kind of cliche. God does not require expensive temples. He requires the best we can when it comes to constructing temples.

3. It is not. It is your perception. Other then Tithing Settlement which serves an explicit purpose in regards to temple worthiness we have maybe one tithing focused meeting for each of the hours of the three hour block a year. It takes a disproportionate amount of my time but that is because I am a clerk and actually have to mess with donations, budgets, and checks but I am not the norm.

Your Stake President was right. It is a good way of gauging the strength of a stake. It is a fantastic indicator. It does not exist in a vacuum though. It has been my experience that very few long-term spiritually weak members pay tithing. It is not necessarily the money but the faith behind it that manifests itself in many areas. It is hard to put a number on how kind or forgiving or sacrificing a stake is but tithing tends to correlate with those other attributes quite well.

Nehor, would you be able to give a reference to the Lord requiring the best where temples are concerned? I'll bet it's in the D&C, but would like to see this.

Also, I attended Fast Sunday last Sunday and one woman expressed how difficult it was to attend the temple, and how the adversary seemed to put up roadblocks to her getting there. This I've heard over and over from members of the church, I know that's not always the case. But I know temples sit empty so much so that they shorten the hours they are open. ETA: This is my opinion when looking at each of the temples around the world's schedules/times of operations. So this is all just my deduction. 

Why do we need a $1,500 vase for the temple? I personally know this because a gal taught a Relief Society lesson and told that she was a buyer and decorator for the temples and that's what one vase cost. That could be used in such a better way. I don't believe God is the kind of monster that would want that money used for a vase, compared to wanting that money for the needs of a starving child, or a community in need or water etc. (I know the church does do this, but it could do a heck of a lot more!) And I can too!

I could go on and on about the unwise use of money the church brings in. But I'm a nobody, and why would you listen.

ETA: I am glad to see the church is doing more though!

Edited by Tacenda

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On 3/5/2018 at 5:40 AM, sjdawg said:

If the finances are always used appropriately why not report them? 

Because there is no end to the nit-picking that ensues when it comes to spending money.

For example, it may be perfectly appropriate for a Bishop to spend $700 to repair somebody's vehicle. But 'appropriate' isn't the standard that critics will apply. Instead, they will compare the transaction against some other use of funds which they personally find more important (and sympathetic) - say, for example, hunger relief in Africa. Honestly, you don't have to be a seer to know that critics are going to say something like, "How many starving children could the church have fed instead of spending that money on a new transmission for someone in a first-world country?"

 

Quote

Why does the Lord require expensive temples?  Wouldn't a modest building satisfy the ordinance requirements just as well as an expensive building?

If the church were poor, we could go back to doing baptisms for the dead in the Mississippi River. But we aren't...so we don't.

I don't know that the Lord requires a certain dollar amount to be spent on any given temple, but the reality is that temples have always been expensive. The pattern we see throughout the scriptures is that temples are constructed out of the best materials of the day. Remember Nephi lamenting that his temple in the new world couldn't be like Soloman's temple because they weren't able to get the same materials (link)? 

So we do the same today - construct our temples using our best. But even our best is but a pale reflection of what the temple truly represents: the house of the Lord. 

 

Quote

Why is tithing a larger focus than other commandments?  Do we have an annual "keeping the sabbath day holy" settlement meeting?  If money is not the focus then why does it seem that finance's get a disproportionate amount of attention? (or is that just my perception?)

It's your perception. In fact, the focus on tithing is so much less in the church than it is elsewhere the differences are really striking. Seriously, just go to a Baptist (or some other Protestant) church sometime and you'll see. I was really caught off guard the first time I went to another church and they started passing the plate (multiple times).

 

Quote

My stake president once told me what when a General Authority visited our stake the first question asked was "what percentage of the stake are full tithe payers"?  From that they knew exactly how spiritual everyone in the stake was.  That always bothered me

I suspect that the GA didn't say that this one metric would show 'exactly how spiritual everyone [as in every single individual] in the stake was.' But I would agree that it's a pretty good indicator. In the vernacular, it's just the spiritual equivalent of putting your money where your mouth is.

 

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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Read about the Temple of Solomon and about the sacrifices asked for building early LDS temples.

Temple attendance is lower than it should be.

Indeed, think of that monster Jesus who wasted that oil worth a lot of money on himself. In comparative value worth more than that insidious vase. Hopefully he is burning in hell for not giving it to orphans as Judas Iscariot suggested. I am all for helping others but the idea that we cannot have any nice things until all the poor are not suffering any want at all sounds noble but is probably not. I just ran a rough calculation of stuff in my house with little more than aesthetic value or maintaining aesthetic value and came up with about $5000 worth of stuff. By your standards I am a monster. Are you one too?

Also, please do not do the “No one will listen to a nobody like me” thing. That is a feeble attempt at using false humility to cover up passive aggressive insinuations.

Yes captain!

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"That is a feeble attempt at using false humility to cover up passive aggressive insinuations."

It is also often used as an excuse to 'righteously' condemn while refusing to actually do anything about it...which means you are intentionally adding burdens to others' lives if they do take you serious, without making any effort to lift their burdens.  It is not a kindness, passive complaining.

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4 hours ago, Calm said:

"That is a feeble attempt at using false humility to cover up passive aggressive insinuations."

It is also often used as an excuse to 'righteously' condemn while refusing to actually do anything about it...which means you are intentionally adding burdens to others' lives if they do take you serious, without making any effort to lift their burdens.  It is not a kindness, passive complaining.

I honestly do think I'm a nobody on this board and most certainly don't think my points are listened to by most. So you and Nehor both got it wrong and have no idea what you're talking about unless you knew me in real life. So take the psycho babble to the next guy, I'm not having it. To put so much onto what I said and that I'm burdening Nehor? And I'm not making any effort to lift his burden or maybe you mean others? How is that any better than what I said, in fact I think it's far worse than what I said. Trying to read into what I've said and outright say I'm doing something so out of left park. Wow!

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21 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Nehor, would you be able to give a reference to the Lord requiring the best where temples are concerned? I'll bet it's in the D&C, but would like to see this.

Also, I attended Fast Sunday last Sunday and one woman expressed how difficult it was to attend the temple, and how the adversary seemed to put up roadblocks to her getting there. This I've heard over and over from members of the church, I know that's not always the case. But I know temples sit empty so much so that they shorten the hours they are open. ETA: This is my opinion when looking at each of the temples around the world's schedules/times of operations. So this is all just my deduction. 

Why do we need a $1,500 vase for the temple? I personally know this because a gal taught a Relief Society lesson and told that she was a buyer and decorator for the temples and that's what one vase cost. That could be used in such a better way. I don't believe God is the kind of monster that would want that money used for a vase, compared to wanting that money for the needs of a starving child, or a community in need or water etc. (I know the church does do this, but it could do a heck of a lot more!) And I can too!

I could go on and on about the unwise use of money the church brings in. But I'm a nobody, and why would you listen.

ETA: I am glad to see the church is doing more though!

You make a claim that temple hours have been shortened because they "sit empty so much", then you accompany it with a lame disclaimer that this is your "deduction" after looking at temple schedules. 

Wow. 

I would call for a CFR, but you've already admitted that your statements are nothing more than falsities created for the express purpose of criticizing the church. 

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56 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

You make a claim that temple hours have been shortened because they "sit empty so much", then you accompany it with a lame disclaimer that this is your "deduction" after looking at temple schedules. 

Wow. 

I would call for a CFR, but you've already admitted that your statements are nothing more than falsities created for the express purpose of criticizing the church. 

My problem is with the choices to build such extravagant temples. I can see I've hit a nerve or a line that I should not have crossed. And if I apologise it will be empty because I seem to not learn from my mistakes in the past on this subject. So moving on and maybe out. 

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38 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

My problem is with the choices to build such extravagant temples. I can see I've hit a nerve or a line that I should not have crossed. And if I apologise it will be empty because I seem to not learn from my mistakes in the past on this subject. So moving on and maybe out. 

"Hit a nerve"? That doesn't make any sense. You made things up out   of thin air, and it's "hitting a nerve" because I pointed out falsehoods? Exactly what nerve would that be?

If you have a problem with temples, why not state your case using facts instead of lies?  Do you have no case without them?

Why would you apologize if you don't believe there is anything wrong with posting falsehoods to attack the church? 

I think you were given some good advice from previous posters.

 

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1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I honestly do think I'm a nobody on this board and most certainly don't think my points are listened to by most. So you and Nehor both got it wrong and have no idea what you're talking about unless you knew me in real life. So take the psycho babble to the next guy, I'm not having it. To put so much onto what I said and that I'm burdening Nehor? And I'm not making any effort to lift his burden or maybe you mean others? How is that any better than what I said, in fact I think it's far worse than what I said. Trying to read into what I've said and outright say I'm doing something so out of left park. Wow!

I was speaking in general in response to Nehor's comment which got me thinking of a few acquaintances up in Canada. "You" was generic. Too be honest, I happened to see your line about being nobody first and ignored the rest of your post because you in essence told me it wasn't worth paying attention to since your expectation was no one would.  I wasn't even thinking about you when writing my post to Nehor...you had told me to stop paying attention...unintentionally perhaps, but that message came through strong.

If you want to be listened to, stop telling everyone that you don't expect them to listen.  Act as if you believe your posts are the best thing they could read all day and put the effort into them so they can see you believe they are worth your own time and effort (research before speculation is always wise to show it isn't just a random thought popped into your head) believe they are definitely worth their time.  If you are a nobody on this board (I don't think you are, you are certainly one of the better known as far as I can see), it is solely because of your choice of what to say as the anonymity of the board takes away all other social cues and leaves only your words and what they convey.

So if you want a different story, start writing a new one for yourself.  This is probably the easiest place in the world to recreate yourself because most people react to the current thread and maybe a few more recent ones, even those who remember older posts are generally willing to ignore them if it is obvious a person is sincere about trying a different way.  I am not saying change your values or beliefs, I am saying change the way you write about them.  When an idea occurs to you, if possible spend at least 30 minutes research it so instead of just asking vague questions or half finished ideas that may even be out of place, you may be providing new facts, new ideas, or just a solid way to communicate them.

If you can't care enough about what you say to promote your posts, why should we expect that we will care.  Are you not the best judge of what produced them?

----

as to the other comments in my previous post...

You are the best judge of what you do, feel free to ignore everything that you know doesn't apply to you and stuff that does apply if you want.

"The I am nobody" mantra is, however, usually viewed (if said seriously and not as an obvious joke and/or repeated a lot) generally  as an obvious sign of low self esteem and loneliness.  Many view it as a cry for help.  Because of this it may trigger certain responses.  When there is limited contact, ignoring is the usual response I have seen especially if it is obviously a habit, since one can't generally help someone like that when they hardly know each other and so they just listen to the message of "I don't think I am worth it to listen to".

What is your intent in saying it?  What are you trying to communicate?  If you believe your words have value, it doesn't matter what your social or other standing, so there is no need for a self dismissive remark.  If you see it as being properly humble for some reason, perhaps it will help to know that it comes off as a reverse pride to me and most people I have talked to about it, someone wallowing in being less than the rest of humanity...after all, no one is really a nobody, you are the one removing yourself from others by making that claim, whether you intend to or not.  

When I read or hear comments like that, it sounds like the writer or speaker doesn't believe in the value of their own words and is essentially telling me to ignore their words and them...and if there is no reason not to, I will do just that at this point in my life because of the too many hours of my time and efforts others have thrown away because they were most comfortable in that persona and they didn't  want to change but most likely from what I saw just wanted to have the attention it brought to them...and they certainly shouldn't change just because I or others see it as dysfunctional if they are happy.

People who want to help others, when they hear a "I am a nobody" remark (usually heard in the head with Eeyore's tones), they would prefer to rush in and buoy up the person's spirits, help them see their real value in the world.  And the helpers may invest huge amounts of time, love, and resources trying to provide opportunities for the self proclaimed "nobody" to see themselves in a more positive light.

My experience, however, is unless it is a joking throwaway remark, a person who uses "I am a nobody" as a mantra is just going to absorb whatever you bring without using it to change their POV.  For whatever reason, saying "I am  nobody" out loud provides them with what they want, often with little effort or sense of gratitude or obligation, instead they react as if the gifts and help are being forced on them.

-----

You may be completely different from this type of individual, but if you use the same mannerisms, you should realize people are going to look back at others who said it and assume your purpose is the same.

So if it isn't, you might want to stop the habit if there is one.  Or share the purpose you had for saying it and then others will be able to add that into their comparison with past experiences and it will hopefully distance you from those of the passive aggressive types.

----

Think of how you feel if someone else had written a post and ended it that way.  What would be your reaction?  Is that the reaction you want from us?  If so, share it and we can see if it can work.

----

As far as burdening other..Nehor's comment triggered my memory of.those who use the "I am nobody" as an excuse to do nothing ("I am nobody, there's nothing I can do, no one will listen to me...so there is no reason for me to feel guilty about not tryin"), so they can then sit around without feeling pressured to do anything and if they choose to be social critics in their leisure time and point out to others what things need to be done in their view, since many people are considerate and try to listen, if those people don't understand the dynamics, they may assume the "nobody" person is expecting them to be the one to make the changes (whether in the "nobody's life" or in society).  They take on the burden and the "nobody" does nothing because no one listens anyway.

If this was not what you were doing in your post, than obviously I was not talking about you.

I was simply expanding on the idea by sharing my offline experiences with individuals who use "I am nobody" as a coping/avoidance measure.

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24 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

"Hit a nerve"? That doesn't make any sense. You made things up out   of thin air, and it's "hitting a nerve" because I pointed out falsehoods? Exactly what nerve would that be?

If you have a problem with temples, why not state your case using facts instead of lies?  Do you have no case without them?

Why would you apologize if you don't believe there is anything wrong with posting falsehoods to attack the church? 

I think you were given some good advice from previous posters.

 

I said it may have hit nerves or crossed the line because members on this board that are TBM hold the temple in very high regard and sacredness. It's where they perform sacred covenants so I see where the defensiveness is. Did you misunderstand my motive for saying crossed the line or hit a nerve? When I hit someone's nerve, in my mind I'm getting on someone's nerves.

Yes, I stepped out of line in my deductions without facts. But why are leaders constantly trying to get people to go to the temple. Why aren't members flocking in droves there 24/7? I guess the temples that don't get as many there are because of the low member count around those temples. That is a good possibility. 

You're wrong about me thinking it's okay to post falsehoods. I see other members of this board stating opinions that may or may not be on the mark. Just feelings on things, wrong or right. 

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10 minutes ago, Calm said:

I was speaking in general in response to Nehor's comment which got me thinking of a few acquaintances up in Canada. "You" was generic. Too be honest, I happened to see your line about being nobody first and ignored the rest of your post because you in essence told me it wasn't worth paying attention to since your expectation was no one would.  I wasn't even thinking about you when writing my post to Nehor...you had told me to stop paying attention...unintentionally perhaps, but that message came through strong.

If you want to be listened to, stop telling everyone that you don't expect them to listen.  Act as if you believe your posts are the best thing they could read all day and put the effort into them so they can see you believe they are worth your own time and effort (research before speculation is always wise to show it isn't just a random thought popped into your head) believe they are definitely worth their time.  If you are a nobody on this board (I don't think you are, you are certainly one of the better known as far as I can see), it is solely because of your choice of what to say as the anonymity of the board takes away all other social cues and leaves only your words and what they convey.

So if you want a different story, start writing a new one for yourself.  This is probably the easiest place in the world to recreate yourself because most people react to the current thread and maybe a few more recent ones, even those who remember older posts are generally willing to ignore them if it is obvious a person is sincere about trying a different way.  I am not saying change your values or beliefs, I am saying change the way you write about them.  When an idea occurs to you, if possible spend at least 30 minutes research it so instead of just asking vague questions or half finished ideas that may even be out of place, you may be providing new facts, new ideas, or just a solid way to communicate them.

If you can't care enough about what you say to promote your posts, why should we expect that we will care.  Are you not the best judge of what produced them?

----

as to the other comments in my previous post...

You are the best judge of what you do, feel free to ignore everything that you know doesn't apply to you and stuff that does apply if you want.

"The I am nobody" mantra is, however, usually viewed (if said seriously and not as an obvious joke and/or repeated a lot) generally  as an obvious sign of low self esteem and loneliness.  Many view it as a cry for help.  Because of this it may trigger certain responses.  When there is limited contact, ignoring is the usual response I have seen especially if it is obviously a habit, since one can't generally help someone like that when they hardly know each other and so they just listen to the message of "I don't think I am worth it to listen to".

What is your intent in saying it?  What are you trying to communicate?  If you believe your words have value, it doesn't matter what your social or other standing, so there is no need for a self dismissive remark.  If you see it as being properly humble for some reason, perhaps it will help to know that it comes off as a reverse pride to me and most people I have talked to about it, someone wallowing in being less than the rest of humanity...after all, no one is really a nobody, you are the one removing yourself from others by making that claim, whether you intend to or not.  

When I read or hear comments like that, it sounds like the writer or speaker doesn't believe in the value of their own words and is essentially telling me to ignore their words and them...and if there is no reason not to, I will do just that at this point in my life because of the too many hours of my time and efforts others have thrown away because they were most comfortable in that persona and they didn't  want to change but most likely from what I saw just wanted to have the attention it brought to them...and they certainly shouldn't change just because I or others see it as dysfunctional if they are happy.

People who want to help others, when they hear a "I am a nobody" remark (usually heard in the head with Eeyore's tones), they would prefer to rush in and buoy up the person's spirits, help them see their real value in the world.  And the helpers may invest huge amounts of time, love, and resources trying to provide opportunities for the self proclaimed "nobody" to see themselves in a more positive light.

My experience, however, is unless it is a joking throwaway remark, a person who uses "I am a nobody" as a mantra is just going to absorb whatever you bring without using it to change their POV.  For whatever reason, saying "I am  nobody" out loud provides them with what they want, often with little effort or sense of gratitude or obligation, instead they react as if the gifts and help are being forced on them.

-----

You may be completely different from this type of individual, but if you use the same mannerisms, you should realize people are going to look back at others who said it and assume your purpose is the same.

So if it isn't, you might want to stop the habit if there is one.  Or share the purpose you had for saying it and then others will be able to add that into their comparison with past experiences and it will hopefully distance you from those of the passive aggressive types.

----

Think of how you feel if someone else had written a post and ended it that way.  What would be your reaction?  Is that the reaction you want from us?  If so, share it and we can see if it can work.

----

As far as burdening other..Nehor's comment triggered my memory of.those who use the "I am nobody" as an excuse to do nothing ("I am nobody, there's nothing I can do, no one will listen to me...so there is no reason for me to feel guilty about not tryin"), so they can then sit around without feeling pressured to do anything and if they choose to be social critics in their leisure time and point out to others what things need to be done in their view, since many people are considerate and try to listen, if those people don't understand the dynamics, they may assume the "nobody" person is expecting them to be the one to make the changes (whether in the "nobody's life" or in society).  They take on the burden and the "nobody" does nothing because no one listens anyway.

If this was not what you were doing in your post, than obviously I was not talking about you.

I was simply expanding on the idea by sharing my offline experiences with individuals who use "I am nobody" as a coping/avoidance measure.

I'll grant that I don't put enough time in my responses, and they are more off the cuff. Something I need to work on. Also, the 'I'm a nobody' is more in the realm of feeling like I've no credentials to back what I say. Or I don't stand out so much to deserve the respect of those that do have credentials or work hard/study hard on various topics. Hope that helps.

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4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I said it may have hit nerves or crossed the line because members on this board that are TBM hold the temple in very high regard and sacredness. It's where they perform sacred covenants so I see where the defensiveness is. Did you misunderstand my motive for saying crossed the line or hit a nerve? When I hit someone's nerve, in my mind I'm getting on someone's nerves.

Yes, I stepped out of line in my deductions without facts. But why are leaders constantly trying to get people to go to the temple. Why aren't members flocking in droves there 24/7? I guess the temples that don't get as many there are because of the low member count around those temples. That is a good possibility. 

You're wrong about me thinking it's okay to post falsehoods. I see other members of this board stating opinions that may or may not be on the mark. Just feelings on things, wrong or right. 

If you don't think it's okay to lie, then you simply need to stop, and not try to justify it with more dishonesty by saying it's just your "opinion" or a "feeling". By your way of looking at things, I could say something like "Tacenda is a thief",  because it's just an opinion or feeling I have, no need at all for it to based in reality, right? 

You say you don't understand why our leaders encourage temple attendance. If you actually want answers to that, there are better ways to find the answer to that question than by simply making things up. But it seems that you would rather criticize than try to actually understand.  Which is too bad, because you are seriously missing out.

You seem heavily invested in a vision of temples sitting empty and unused.  Whenever I've attended my local temple, the parking lots are full to overflowing, and you'll likely have a bit of a wait to perform ordinances.  

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

If you don't think it's okay to lie, then you simply need to stop, and not try to justify it with more dishonesty by saying it's just your "opinion" or a "feeling". By your way of looking at things, I could say something like "Tacenda is a thief",  because it's just an opinion or feeling I have, no need at all for it to based in reality, right? 

You say you don't understand why our leaders encourage temple attendance. If you actually want answers to that, there are better ways to find the answer to that question than by simply making things up. But it seems that you would rather criticize than try to actually understand.  Which is too bad, because you are seriously missing out.

You seem heavily invested in a vision of temples sitting empty and unused.  Whenever I've attended my local temple, the parking lots are full to overflowing, and you'll likely have a bit of a wait to perform ordinances.  

 

 

Good points. I'll hand it to you and the others. 

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3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'll grant that I don't put enough time in my responses, and they are more off the cuff. Something I need to work on. Also, the 'I'm a nobody' is more in the realm of feeling like I've no credentials to back what I say. Or I don't stand out so much to deserve the respect of those that do have credentials or work hard/study hard on various topics. Hope that helps.

I still wouldn't use it if I were you.  Seriously, you are telling us your words aren't worth reading, even the above more or less says the same thing.

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7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'll grant that I don't put enough time in my responses, and they are more off the cuff. Something I need to work on. Also, the 'I'm a nobody' is more in the realm of feeling like I've no credentials to back what I say. Or I don't stand out so much to deserve the respect of those that do have credentials or work hard/study hard on various topics. Hope that helps.

Sometimes I just want to give you a big hug.  You can get beat up pretty bad on this board sometimes for things that you say that might not have been written perfectly clear, but certainly is something you want to voice your opinion about.  

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6 hours ago, california boy said:

Sometimes I just want to give you a big hug.  You can get beat up pretty bad on this board sometimes for things that you say that might not have been written perfectly clear, but certainly is something you want to voice your opinion about.  

And it is really unfortunate in my view she feels a need to say "I am a nobody", she is most definitely not and there is no reason for her to feel that way.  There are well respected posters on the board who don't share research, so one doesn't even have to be an academic.  There is as far as I can tell nothing that inherently moves Tacenda's comments to a "worthless" pile.

My claim to fame is I am willing to use Google to find useful sources, preferably primary, but often not....oh, and talking a lot.  I am hoping people think I listen a lot too, but that is harder to measure than straight post count.  And somehow this got me most points on the board.

Myacademic training was ended at graduation with a degree in psychology.  It helps to have postgraduate work, etc., but it is not necessary to be respected here.  The biggest factor from what I have seen in general is to be respectful the majority of time of others, including those not on the board and historical figures even if expressing disagreement.  Posters appear to me to be pretty understanding if one loses it on occasion.  Everyone can relate to those moments, I suspect.

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8 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'll grant that I don't put enough time in my responses, and they are more off the cuff. Something I need to work on. Also, the 'I'm a nobody' is more in the realm of feeling like I've no credentials to back what I say. Or I don't stand out so much to deserve the respect of those that do have credentials or work hard/study hard on various topics. Hope that helps.

Do you say it hoping that it will stop people coming back hard on you?

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