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9 hours ago, MormonMason said:

Adieu has been a concern to many.  Anti-Mormons have objected to its presence in a translation of a text with a BC dating.  On the other hand, I saw it as nothing more than a translation artifact. 

Adieu was commonly used by American writer, including George Washington, in the 18th and early 19th centuries.

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2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Adieu was commonly used by American writer, including George Washington, in the 18th and early 19th centuries.

While true, it is anachronistic in the Book of Mormon text. The Holy Ghost has thrown a lot of stuff at us in the Book of Mormon text as people are just beginning to realize. It is far from the "chloroform in print" at which Samuel Clemens so famously sneered.

Glenn

Edited by Glenn101
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9 hours ago, JarMan said:

You really need to get caught up on the latest scholarship. It's like I've time warped to this board about five or ten years in the past. There was a recent thread discussing this issue and I think it's fair to say you are over-playing your hand, here.

Please link to the thread so he knows what you are talking about.

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9 hours ago, JarMan said:
11 hours ago, MormonMason said:

That is all well and good but what to do with the differing styles seen among several of the writers in the Book of Mormon? Similarity of ideas does not a similarity of style make.  Here is an example of something I picked up from some notes on the Book of Mormon:

Sorry that I do not recall the original source of this above claim but it seems valid to me based on cursory glances at what the person spoke of concerning the text.  Here is another note in my copy of the Book of Mormon (also a source no longer recalled by me):

There really are distinctive differences in style between the writers of the Book of Mormon, which would not be the case if Grotius is the source of the Book of Mormon, regardless of whether via manuscript (an impossibility, based on unanimous eyewitness testimony) or via the seer stone.  I've noticed the differences.  Others have as well.  You are looking at individual phrases and unreliable ngrams.  You are not looking at the overarching stylistic differences between Grotius and the authors of the Book of Mormon, and between the individual authors of the texts of the Book of Mormon.  These differences are substantial.

You really need to get caught up on the latest scholarship. It's like I've time warped to this board about five or ten years in the past. There was a recent thread discussing this issue and I think it's fair to say you are over-playing your hand, here.

JarMan, are you referencing this thread about an upcoming presentation by Matthew Roper and Paul Fields? That presentation is congruent with the things that MormonMason posted (as well as other stylometry studies). A blogger going by the handle churchistrue does not agree with their conclusions and methodology, but he has shown no control method against which to test his hypothesis of only three unique voices in the Book of Mormon as opposed to the Roper/Fields conclusion of twenty-eight unique voices .

Here is a link to information some previous wordprint or stylometry studies on the Book of Mormon and here is a link to information on the Roper/Fields study.

I think that it is safe to say that recent scholarship is more confirming the multiplicity of authors as claimed by the Book of Mormon itself than not.

Or were you referencing a different thread?

Glenn

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20 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

JarMan, are you referencing this thread about an upcoming presentation by Matthew Roper and Paul Fields? That presentation is congruent with the things that MormonMason posted (as well as other stylometry studies). A blogger going by the handle churchistrue does not agree with their conclusions and methodology, but he has shown no control method against which to test his hypothesis of only three unique voices in the Book of Mormon as opposed to the Roper/Fields conclusion of twenty-eight unique voices .

Here is a link to information some previous wordprint or stylometry studies on the Book of Mormon and here is a link to information on the Roper/Fields study.

I think that it is safe to say that recent scholarship is more confirming the multiplicity of authors as claimed by the Book of Mormon itself than not.

Or were you referencing a different thread?

Glenn

Yes, this is the thread I was referencing. The study confirms that skilled writers can create different voices for different characters. And it shows that the Book of Mormon does a better job of doing this than four different 19th Century authors. I agree with the conclusion that Joseph could not have done this. However, I am not claiming Joseph wrote the Book of Mormon. I am claiming that a skilled writer from the 17th Century did. So the study isn't that helpful because 1) it doesn't test any 17th Century writers, 2) it provides a baseline using a sample size of only 4 writers, 3) it makes an assumption that these 4 writers would have been the best at creating different voices, but doesn't test this assumption, and 4) it doesn't indicate whether or not there is a statistical significance between the 4 writers and the Book of Mormon (I suspect there is not based on the wide range of values and the small sample size). 

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13 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

While true, it is anachronistic in the Book of Mormon text. The Holy Ghost has thrown a lot of stuff at us in the Book of Mormon text as people are just beginning to realize. It is far from the "chloroform in print" at which Samuel Clemens so famously sneered.

Glenn

It is not anachronistic. It was a common English word borrowed from the French long before Joseph Smith, and it was used by many writers around the time of the Book of Mormon. Adieu simply meant, "I commend you to God," which is precisely what Jacob wanted to say.

Here is an essay I wrote about it a while back....

Quote

Adieu is an English word adopted from French long before Joseph Smith. It was commonly used by his English and American contemporaries. It appears as an English word in the 1828 Webster's Dictionary.

ADIEU', Adu'.

Farewell; an expression of kind wishes at the parting of friends.

ADIEU, n. A farewell, or commendation to the care of God; as an everlasting adieu.”

http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/search/word,adieu

 Here are examples of adieu used by George Washington in exactly in the same sense as the BoM...

"And being now to conclude these his last public Orders, to take his ultimate leave, in a short time, of the Military Character, and to bid a final adieu to the Armies he has so long had the honor to Command--he can only again offer in their behalf his recommendations to their grateful Country, and his prayers to the God of Armies." (Genll Washington's Farewell Orders issued to the Armies of the United States of America the 2d day of Novr 1783--Rocky Hill, near Princeton)

And two more by Washington:

"Although I never more intended to appear on a public theatre, and had in a public manner bid adieu to public life; yet, if the voice of my Country had called me to this important duty, I might, in obedience to the repeated instances of its affection & confidence, have dispensed with these objections, but another now exists which would render my acceptance of this appointment impracticable, with any degree of consistency--" (George Washington to David Stuart, 19 November 1786 The Papers, Confederation Series, 4:387-88)

"I condole with you on the loss of your parents, but as they lived to a good old age you could not be unprepared for the shock; tho' there is something painful in bidding an adieu to those we love, or revere, when we know it is a final one. Reason, religion & Philosophy may soften the anguish, but time alone can irradicate it." (George Washington to David Humphreys 10 October 1787)

Other examples of the use of adieu from writers contemporary with Joseph Smith:

Solomon Spalding, "Manuscript Found"

1. "This was done on both sides, with mutual expressions of the most ardent and sincere friendship and the most earnest wishes and prayers for future prosperity and happiness. Having taken our final adieu, I observed honest Crito shedding tears very plentifully. 'You seem to be affected,' said I. 'God bless Your Honor,' said he, 'when I think how kind and generous these poor Deliwans have been to us, I cannot help feeling an affection and friendship for them.'"

2. "Having acquired that renown and glory which are beyond the reach of envy and which aspiring ambition would despair of attaining, at the age of eighty, he bid an affectionate adieu to two empires and left them to Flament in tears his exit. "

3. "He spent but a few moments with Lamesa, in which they exchanged mutual congratulations and expressions of the most tender both possessed hearts which were and sincere affection [sic]. She conjured him to spare the life of her father and brother and not to expose his own life any farther than his honor and the interest of his country required. 'I shall cheerfully" says he, "comply with every request which will promote your happiness.' He embraced her and bid her adieu."

Fennimore Cooper "The Last of the Mohicans"

"She frankly gave him her hand, though her lip quivered, and her cheeks gradually became of ashly palness. 'In every fortune, I know you will be an ornament and honor to your sex. Alice, adieu' -- his voice changed from admiration to tenderness -- 'adieu, Alice; we shall soon meet again; as conquerors, I trust, and amid rejoicings'"

Nathaniel Hawthorne "The Blithedale Romance"

"'I have done with it; and Blithedale must find another woman to superintend the laundry, and you, Mr. Coverdale, another nurse to make your gruel, the next time you fall ill. It was, indeed, a foolish dream! Yet it gave us some pleasant summer days, and bright hopes, while they lasted. It can do no more; nor will it avail us to shed tears over a broken bubble. Here is my hand! Adieu!'"

Nathaniel Hawthorne "The House of Seven Gables"

"On the second morning thereafter, Phoebe might have been seen, in her straw bonnet, with a shawl on one arm and a little carpet-bag on the other, bidding adieu to Hepzibah and Cousin Clifford. She was to take a seat in the next train of cars, which would transport her to within half a dozen miles of her country village."

Mark Twain, "Innocents Abroad"

"The Emperor--'Oh, d--n the Address!--read it to the police. Chamberlain, take these people over to my brother, the Grand Duke's, and give them a square meal. Adieu! I am happy--I am gratified--I am delighted--I am bored. Adieu, adieu--vamos the ranch!"

Jane Austen "Emma"

"Compressed into the very lowest vacant corner were these words--"I had not a spare moment on Tuesday, as you know, for Miss Woodhouse's beautiful little friend. Pray make my excuses and adieus to her." This, Emma could not doubt, was all for herself."

Charlotte Bronte, "Shirley"

"He would have taken Caroline's hand and joined it in the same clasp in which he held Shirley's, but somehow it was not ready for him; she had withdrawn a few steps apart: her answer to Moore's adieu was only a slight bend of the head, and a gentle, serious smile. He sought no more cordial token: again he said 'Farewell!' and quitted them both."

Charles ****ens, "Oliver Twist"

"With many adieus and good wishes, Mr. Fagin went his way. Noah Claypole, bespeaking his good lady's attention, proceeded to enlighten her relative to the arrangement he had made, with all that haughtiness and air of superiority, becoming, not only a member of the sterner sex, but a gentleman who appreciated the dignity of a special appointment on the kinchin lay, in London and its vicinity."

Charles ****ens, "Martin Chuzzlewit"

In truth, the new pupil, not at all disconcerted by the honour of having Miss Mercy Pecksniff on his arm, or by the affectionate adieux of that young lady, approached as Mr. Pinch spoke, followed by Miss Charity and Mr. Pecksniff.

Washington Irving, "The Adventures of Captain Bonneville"

"As the bull boat was now nearly worn out, and altogether unfit for the broader and more turbulent stream of the Missouri, it was given up, and a canoe of cottonwood, about twenty feet long, fabricated by the Blackfeet, was purchased to supply its place. In this Wyeth hoisted his sail, and bidding adieu to the hospitable superintendent of Fort Union, turned his prow to the east, and set off down the Missouri."

Edgar Allen Poe, "The Assignation"

"What reason could there have been for the low - the singularly low tone of those unmeaning words which the lady uttered hurriedly in bidding him adieu? 'Thou hast conquered,' she said, or the murmurs of the water deceived me; 'thou hast conquered - one hour after sunrise - we shall meet - so let it be!'"

Herman Melville, "Moby ****"

"So disordered, self-condemning in his look, that had there been policemen in those days, Jonah, on the mere suspicion of something wrong, had been arrested ere he touched a deck. How plainly he's a fugitive! no baggage, not a hat-box, valise, or carpet-bag,- no friends accompany him to the wharf with their adieux."

Sir Walter Scott, "The Talisman"

"'Wild work, Sir Kenneth,' replied De Vaux, shrugging his shoulders, as one who would avoid a perilous or unpleasing topic --'a mad world, sir. I must now bid you adieu, having presently to return to the King's pavilion.'" [De Vaux was an English nobleman, not a Frenchie]

Harriet Beecher Stowe, "Uncle Tom's Cabin"

"Call Bruno in there," she added. "Shut the door on him, poor beast! He mustn't go with me!"

"A few last words and tears, a few simple adieus and blessings, and clasping her wondering and affrighted child in her arms, she glided noiselessly away."

Louisa May Alcott, "Little Women"

"Meg says my punctuation and spelling are disgraceful and I am mortyfied but dear me I have so many things to do, I can't stop. Adieu, I send heaps of love to Papa. Your affectionate daughter . .."

Bret Harte, "Under the Eaves"

"He grasped Breeze's hand warmly and slipped out of the door softly. For an instant Mr. Breeze felt inclined to follow him into the room and make a kinder adieu to the pair, but the reflection that he might embarrass the wife, who, it would seem, had purposely avoided accompanying her husband when he entered, withheld him."

William Makepeace Thackery, "The Notch on the Ax"

"Mr. Pinto, then, taking a gray receipt stamp out of his blue leather pocketbook, fastened it on to the paper by the usual process; and the hand then wrote across the receipt stamp, went across the table and shook hands with Pinto, and then, as if waving him an adieu, vanished in the direction of the ceiling."

John Keats, "Epistle to my Brother George"

"Fair world, adieu!

Thy dales, and hills, are fading from my view:

Swiftly I mount, upon wide spreading pinions,

Far from the narrow bound of thy dominions."

Anthony Trollope, "Barchester Towers"

"There was no standing for this, for Mr Slope was now looking at him, and so was the bishop, and so was the archdeacon, who had completed his adieux on that side of the room. Mr Harding therefore got up also, and putting out his hand to Mrs Proudie, said: 'If you will come to St Cuthbert's some Sunday, I will preach you a sermon on the subject.'"

Elizabeth Barrett Browning, "Elizabeth Leigh"

"Poets become such,

Through scorning nothing. You decry them for

The good of beauty, sung and taught by them,

While they respect your practical partial good

As being a part of beauty's self. Adieu!

When God helps all the workers for his world,

The singers shall have help of Him, not last."

Jules Verne, "Around the World in Eighty Days"

"Benares was Sir Francis Cromarty's destination, the troops he was rejoining being encamped some miles northward of the city. He bade adieu to Phileas Fogg, wishing him all success, and expressing the hope that he would come that way again in a less original but more profitable fashion."

Jules Verne, "Journey to the Center of the Earth"

"At six o'clock our preparations were over. M. Fridrikssen shook hands with us. My uncle thanked him heartily for his extreme kindness. I constructed a few fine Latin sentences to express my cordial farewell. Then we bestrode our steeds and with his last adieu M.Fridrikssen treated me to a line of Virgil eminently applicable to such uncertain wanderers as we were likely to be..."

 

A search of the University of Virginia’s digitalized database of early American literature confirms its frequent use by a broad spectrum of writers who were contemporary with Joseph Smith.

Matches for the word “adieu” found in the University of Virginia’s e-text library of early American literature:

Cooper, James Fenimore, 1789-1851: The Water-Witch [Vol 2] : 10 matches

Thorpe, Thomas Bangs, 1815-1878 : The Master's House: A Tale of Southern Life : 8 matches

Willis, Nathaniel Parker, 1806-1867 :Fun-Jottings; or, Laughs I Have Taken A Pen To : 7 matches

Cooper, James Fenimore: The Pilot [Vol 2] : 7 matches

Cooper, James Fenimore: The Water-Witch [Vol 1] : 7 matches

Melville, Herman, 1819-1891 : Moby-****; or, The Whale. : 6 matches

Sedgwick, Catharine Maria, 1789-1867 : Clarence; or, a Tale of Our Own Times [Vol 1] : 5 matches

Alcott, Louisa May, 1832-1888: Moods. : 4 matches

Cary, Alice, 1820-1871: Clovernook, or Recollections of our Neighborhood in the West [Volume II]. : 4 matches

Child, Lydia Maria Francis, 1802-1880 : A Romance of the Republic. : 4 matches

Holmes, Mary J. (Mary Jane Hawes), 1825-1907 : Darkness and Daylight. A Novel. : 4 matches

Melville, Herman, 1819-1891 : The Piazza Tales. : 4 matches

Evans, Augusta J. (Augusta Jane), 1835-1909 : St. Elmo: A Novel : 4 matches

Cooper, James Fenimore: The Deerslayer [Vol 2] : 4 matches

Bennett, Emerson, 1822-1905: The League of the Miami. : 3 matches

Twain, Mark, 1835-1910: The Gilded Age: A Tale of To-Day. : 3 matches

Twain, Mark, 1835-1910: The Innocents Abroad; or, The New Pilgrim's Progress. : 3 matches

Eggleston, Edward, 1837-1902 : The End of the World: A Love Story. : 3 matches

Ingraham, J. H. (Joseph Holt), 1809-1860: The Pillar of Fire; or, Israel in Bondage. : 3 matches

Ingraham, J. H. (Joseph Holt), 1809-1860 : The Prince of the House of David; or, Three Years in the Holy City. Being a Series of the Letters of Adina...and relating, as by an eye witness, all the scenes and wonderful incidents in the life of Jesus of Nazareth, from his baptism in Jordan to his crucifixion on Clavary. : 3 matches

Landon, Melville D. (Melville De Lancey), 1839-1910 : Saratoga in 1901. By Eli Perkins (pseud). Fun, Love, Society & Satire. : 3 matches

Lanier, Sidney, 1842-1881 : Tiger-Lilies: A Novel. : 3 matches

Cooper, James Fenimore: Precaution [Vol 2] : 3 matches

Cooper, James Fenimore: The Last of the Mohicans [Vol 1] : 3 matches

Irving, Washington : Tales of a Traveller [Vol 1] : 3 matches

Sedgwick, Catharine Maria : "Romance in Real Life" , from The Legendary, N. P. Willis, ed : 3 matches

Sedgwick, Catharine Maria : Clarence; or, a Tale of Our Own Times [Vol 2] : 3 matches

Sedgwick, Catharine Maria : Tales and Sketches : 3 matches

Cary, Alice, 1820-1871: Clovernook, or Recollections of our Neighborhood in the West [Volume I]. : 2 matches

Cooke, John Esten, 1830-1886 : Mohun; or, The Last Days of Lee and His Paladins. Final Memoirs of a Staff Officer Serving in Virginia. From the Mss. of Colonel Surry, of Eagle's Nest. : 2 matches

Cummins, Maria S. (Maria Susanna), 1827-1866 : Mabel Vaughan. : 2 matches

Hawthorne, Nathaniel, 1804-1864: The Blithedale Romance. : 2 matches

Johnston, Richard Malcolm, 1822-1898: Dukesborough Tales. By Philemon Perch [pseud]. : 2 matches

Trowbridge, J. T. (John Townsend), 1827-1916: Coupon Bonds, and Other Stories. : 2 matches

Wallace, Lew, 1827-1905. : The Fair God; or, The Last of the 'Tzins. A Tale of the Conquest of Mexico. : 2 matches

Child, Lydia Maria (Francis): Philothea : 2 matches

Cooper, James Fenimore: The Prairie [Vol 2] : 2 matches

Hawthorne, Nathaniel : Twice-Told Tales : 2 matches

Irving, Washington , 1783-1859: Tales of a Traveller [Vol 2] : 2 matches

Kirkland, Caroline Matilda, 1801-1864 : A New Home -- Who'll Follow? Or, Glimpses of Western Life. By Mrs. Mary Clavers [pseud] : 2 matches

Kirkland, Caroline Matilda : Forest Life [Vol 1] : 2 matches

Sedgwick, Catharine Maria : The Linwoods, volume 1 : 2 matches

Willis, Nathaniel Parker : Romance of Travel : 2 matches

Alcott, Louisa May, 1832-1888: Hospital Sketches. : 1 matches

Alcott, Louisa May, : Work: A Story of Experience. : 1 matches

Aldrich, Thomas Bailey, 1836-1907: Prudence Palfrey. A Novel. : 1 matches

Cozzens, Frederic S. (Frederic Swartwout), 1818-1869 : The Sparrowgrass Papers; or, Living in the Country. : 1 matches

Curtis, Ge˝orge William, 1824-1892 : Trumps: A Novel. : 1 matches

Cooper, James Fenimore, 1789-1851 : Letter from James Fenimore Cooper to William Gilmore Simms (January 05, 1844) : 1 matches

James, Henry, 1843-1916 : A Passionate Pilgrim, and Other Tales. : 1 matches

Judd, Sylvester, 1813-1853: Margaret: A Tale of the Real and the Ideal, Blight and Bloom : 1 matches

Judd, Sylvester, 1813-1853 : Margaret: A Tale of the Real and the Ideal, Blight and Bloom : 1 matches

Sedgwick, Catharine Maria, 1789-1867: Married or Single? : 1 matches

Shillaber, B. P. (Benjamin Penhallow), 1814-1890: Life and Sayings of Mrs. Partington and Others of the Family. Edited by B. P. Shillaber... : 1 matches

Stowe, Harriet Beecher, 1811-1896 : Uncle Tom's Cabin; or, Life among the Lowly : 1 matches

Bird, Robert Montgomery: The Hawks of Hawk-Hollow [Vol 2] : 1 matches

Bird, Robert Montgomery: Sheppard Lee [Vol 1] : 1 matches

Bird, Robert Montgomery: Sheppard Lee [Vol 2] : 1 matches

Child, Lydia Maria (Francis): Hobomok : 1 matches

Cooper, James Fenimore: Precaution [Vol 1] : 1 matches

Cooper, James Fenimore: The Spy [Vol 1] : 1 matches

Cooper, James Fenimore: The Spy [Vol 2] : 1 matches

Cooper, James Fenimore: The Pioneers [Vol 1] : 1 matches

Cooper, James Fenimore: The Pioneers [Vol 2] : 1 matches

Cooper, James Fenimore: The Prairie [Vol 1] : 1 matches

Cooper, James Fenimore: Jack Tier [Vol 1] : 1 matches

Dawes, Rufus : Nix's Mate: An Historical Romance of America [Vol 2] : 1 matches

Hawthorne, Nathaniel : The Gentle Boy : 1 matches

Irving, Washington : Tales of a Traveller [Vol 3] : 1 matches

Kirkland, Caroline Matilda : Forest Life [Vol 2] : 1 matches

Poe, Edgar Allan : Tales of the Grotesque and Arabesque [Vol 2] : 1 matches

Sedgwick, Catharine Maria : Redwood: A Tale [Vol 2] : 1 matches

Sedgwick, Catharine Maria : Hope Leslie [Vol 2] : 1 matches

Sedgwick, Catharine Maria : The Linwoods, volume 2 : 1 matches

Simms, William Gilmore : Richard Hurdis [Vol 2] : 1 matches

Simms, William Gilmore : Beauchampe [Vol 2] : 1 matches

Simms, William Gilmore : The Wigwam and the Cabin [Vol 2] : 1 matches

Summary

It is clear "adieu" was not out of place in the English writings of Joseph Smith's era. It was commonly used in literature and poetry, and, I imagine, in common conversation. There is no reason to question its use in the Book of Mormon.

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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Just now, JarMan said:

I am claiming that a skilled writer from the 17th Century did.

Given the power of computer data bases and word and phrase searches, it should be an easy matter to discover who this mysterious writer was.

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On 4/4/2018 at 9:17 PM, Rajah Manchou said:

I looked at both primary and secondary sources. At least one of the gatekeepers is called the "Keeper of the Gate" in The Pilgrim's Progress. From my reading, God, Christ or the Lord is intended to be the Keeper of the Gate. The secondary source I linked to earlier gives the same reading.
h-7KorlG6K-3000x3000.png

A footnote in the text says that over the gate was written "Knock and it shall be opened".

Here's my take on the idea of Christ as the gatekeeper in 2 Nephi 9:41. The traditional Christian gatekeeper is, of course, Peter with the keys given him in Matthew 16. (As a side note, this is likely an example of syncretism since the Roman god, Janus, is the gatekeeper of heaven and was often depicted as holding keys.) Catholics use Matthew 16 to assert their line of authority from Christ through the authority given to Peter. Peter as gatekeeper to heaven, then, represents the idea that the way to heaven is through the Catholic church. Saying that the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel (instead of Peter) is a way of saying that it's through Christ, not through the Catholic church, that people get to heaven. This is an argument Protestants have repeated ad infinitum since the beginning of the Reformation. In this way I think the concept of Christ as the gatekeeper to heaven is evidence the Book of Mormon is a post-Reformation production.

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15 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Given the power of computer data bases and word and phrase searches, it should be an easy matter to discover who this mysterious writer was.

Well, he wrote in Latin, Dutch, French, and German so that would be tough. But we are able to study his works and compare his ideas to the ideas in the Book of Mormon. So far this has yielded encouraging results.

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5 minutes ago, JarMan said:

Well, he wrote in Latin, Dutch, French, and German so that would be tough. But we are able to study his works and compare his ideas to the ideas in the Book of Mormon. So far this has yielded encouraging results.

Have you found extensive use of parallelitic forms?

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Quote

The study confirms that skilled writers can create different voices for different characters.

What study are you referring to?

If churchistrue's, while I commend him for his efforts, he is not trained in the field, he created his own methodology and his work has not been appraised by any professionals yet and he may not understand the implications of the Roper and Fields chart.  So I don't believe it should be claimed that the study is valid at this point.

If Roper and Field's, since the presentation has not been given you, I can't really see how you can say their work confirms anything at this point.

Edited by Calm
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21 hours ago, JarMan said:

Patriotic Americans desired religious freedom and a wall of separation between church and state. ...  I highly doubt there were "a lot" of people in Joseph's environment that were pro-state religion and anti-freedom of religion. That's the type of claim that requires a reference so I'm asking you to provide references to support your claim. 

Even today there are plenty of Americans who feel that the United States is supposed to be a Christian nation, or at any rate theistic, and that separation of church and state only means not officially preferring Baptists over Methodists. They point to phrases like "in God we trust" and "one nation under God". Were there Americans in Smith's day with similar views? Well, quite a lot of them followed Brigham Young to Utah soon after to join a theocracy. You could imagine that these were all die-hard freethinkers until the Book of Mormon miraculously convinced them otherwise but it seems at least plausible to me to suppose instead that they became Mormon at least in part because they were already predisposed to theocracy.

If I somehow had a burden of proof to support this with references, I wouldn't do it because I don't have the time. I don't see that I do have that burden, though. You're the one asserting that a book published in 1830 must actually have been written centuries earlier because it contains anachronisms, in the form of sentiments that would either have been too common to be worth repeating or too foreign to be acceptable. I've shown you a good reason for having a narrator repeat sentiments that are common in a potential readership, and I've observed that the sentiments in question are not foreign either today or in Brigham Young's time. I think you're the one with something to prove about this.

Quote

Keep in mind that to be consistent with the story of Korihor there would need to be people who believed that 1) Religious freedom should not be extended to atheists, 2) A state church is desirable, 3) Ecclesiastical leaders should have the authority to exercise civil power, and 4) atheists were such a menace to society God would rather have them dead then allow them to disrupt a peaceful society.

At first you were saying that Mormon's narratorial support for religious freedom was anachronistic for 1830 because everybody in 1830 took religious freedom for granted. I countered that a narrator might be made to endorse Motherhood-And-Apple-Pie in order to win reader sympathy. Now you're saying that the whole Korihor story (as opposed to those narratorial comments) is against religious freedom that extends to militant atheism, and so therefore the Korihor story as a whole would have been a hard sell in 1830s New England. I'm not saying you're contradicting yourself but I do want to be clear that you've switched to a different argument.

Your second argument doesn't seem to have to do with anachronism directly, but just to be directed against my counter-argument that anachronism on the part of a fictional narrator can be a technique for engaging reader sympathy on the part of the author, and is therefore no reason to revise the dating of a fictional work. You seem to be saying, in effect, "If Joseph Smith was so keen to win reader sympathy, then why did he include such an unsympathetic plot as the Korihor story?" But all I said was that there could be a perfectly good reason for an 1830 author to put anachronistic lines in the mouth of his narrator—and that's enough to demolish your argument for Grotius on grounds of anachronistic narrator comments in Alma. I never said that every single line in the whole Book of Mormon had to be calculated to appeal to the popular mind of 1830. Perhaps Smith was deliberately preaching an unpopular view with the sweep of the story, and therefore felt all the more need to sweeten his bitter pill for the public by having Mormon say nice things about tolerance.

So if Smith's target audience wanted theocracy, or if it didn't, either way Smith would have had good reason to make Mormon say nice things about religious freedom even though these would have been platitudes in Smith's own place and time. There is no argument for re-dating the Book of Mormon from anachronistic narratorial comments in Alma. You seem to have many other arguments for your conclusion, and I wish you well with them, but I think you should give up on this one.

Edited by Physics Guy
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3 hours ago, Physics Guy said:

Even today there are plenty of Americans who feel that the United States is supposed to be a Christian nation, or at any rate theistic, and that separation of church and state only means not officially preferring Baptists over Methodists. They point to phrases like "in God we trust" and "one nation under God". Were there Americans in Smith's day with similar views? Well, quite a lot of them followed Brigham Young to Utah soon after to join a theocracy. You could imagine that these were all die-hard freethinkers until the Book of Mormon miraculously convinced them otherwise but it seems at least plausible to me to suppose instead that they became Mormon at least in part because they were already predisposed to theocracy.

You're conflating the concepts of a religious nation and a state government. I've never heard anyone make the argument that the United States should have a state religion, especially not the early Mormons. I've heard lots of people say that we are a Christian nation. These are two very different things. And this is important because the Nephites clearly have a state religion. This is antithetical to American ideals and, therefore, anachronistic to 19th Century America.

3 hours ago, Physics Guy said:

If I somehow had a burden of proof to support this with references, I wouldn't do it because I don't have the time. I don't see that I do have that burden, though. You're the one asserting that a book published in 1830 must actually have been written centuries earlier because it contains anachronisms, in the form of sentiments that would either have been too common to be worth repeating or too foreign to be acceptable. I've shown you a good reason for having a narrator repeat sentiments that are common in a potential readership, and I've observed that the sentiments in question are not foreign either today or in Brigham Young's time. I think you're the one with something to prove about this.

I've provided references to support my claims. The reason the CFR rules exists it to prevent people from doing what you are currently attempting to do, which is to make unsupportable claims. You claimed that the Korihor story would resonate with a lot of Smith's contemporaries who preferred a bit more theocracy. First of all, the Book of Mormon doesn't present theocratic governments. In a theocracy the religious leaders rule. In the Book of Mormon the secular leaders (either kings or judges) are in charge. These secular rulers have control of the church. So you're conflating two different ideas again. Second of all, your claim remains unsupported.

4 hours ago, Physics Guy said:

At first you were saying that Mormon's narratorial support for religious freedom was anachronistic for 1830 because everybody in 1830 took religious freedom for granted. I countered that a narrator might be made to endorse Motherhood-And-Apple-Pie in order to win reader sympathy. Now you're saying that the whole Korihor story (as opposed to those narratorial comments) is against religious freedom that extends to militant atheism, and so therefore the Korihor story as a whole would have been a hard sell in 1830s New England. I'm not saying you're contradicting yourself but I do want to be clear that you've switched to a different argument.

I am keeping the same argument. You are just not understanding it. My argument starts with the assumption that both religious freedom and separation of church and state were taken for granted in Joseph's America. From our modern perspective these two things are inseparable. From a 17th Century perspective these are two different things. Religious freedom in that day meant non-state religions would be tolerated to some degree rather than their adherents being exiled, forced to convert, or killed. In Europe every country had a state religion. But few of them offered religious freedom. The Book of Mormon is describing the Nephites as having a state religion but also as offering religious freedoms. But it doesn't explicitly explain that there is a state religion because the narrator assumes the reader already knows that. However, since religious freedom was rare in Europe the narrator has to explain to the reader that religious freedom exists in the story (and is at the heart of the conflict). A 19th Century narrator would explain things the opposite way. He would assume his reader would understand religious freedom existed but would explicitly explain why a state religion existed. That's part 1 of the argument.

Part 2 centers around the idea that the moral of the story is that too much religious freedom is a bad thing and that atheists, in particular, shouldn't be tolerated by the government since their actions cause civil unrest and lead the people into sin. This is clearly not a patriotic American idea. And I've shown previously that the idea that atheists suffer a horrible death according to God's retribution is a 17th Century convention. I don't see any motherhood-and-apple-pie in this story or many ideas 19th Century Americans would sympathize with.

4 hours ago, Physics Guy said:

Your second argument doesn't seem to have to do with anachronism directly, but just to be directed against my counter-argument that anachronism on the part of a fictional narrator can be a technique for engaging reader sympathy on the part of the author, and is therefore no reason to revise the dating of a fictional work. You seem to be saying, in effect, "If Joseph Smith was so keen to win reader sympathy, then why did he include such an unsympathetic plot as the Korihor story?" But all I said was that there could be a perfectly good reason for an 1830 author to put anachronistic lines in the mouth of his narrator—and that's enough to demolish your argument for Grotius on grounds of anachronistic narrator comments in Alma. I never said that every single line in the whole Book of Mormon had to be calculated to appeal to the popular mind of 1830. Perhaps Smith was deliberately preaching an unpopular view with the sweep of the story, and therefore felt all the more need to sweeten his bitter pill for the public by having Mormon say nice things about tolerance.

So if Smith's target audience wanted theocracy, or if it didn't, either way Smith would have had good reason to make Mormon say nice things about religious freedom even though these would have been platitudes in Smith's own place and time. There is no argument for re-dating the Book of Mormon from anachronistic narratorial comments in Alma. You seem to have many other arguments for your conclusion, and I wish you well with them, but I think you should give up on this one.

You will not be able to understand my argument until you start understanding why the word "theocracy" is totally out of place in this discussion. You want to lump any form of government that mixes church and state or even any idea of a religious nation into the category "theocracy" without realizing that there are several different types of government that join church and state and also ideas regarding religious nations. Your purpose seems to be to show that the mixing of church and state in the Book of Mormon anticipates the mixing of church and state in early Mormonism. The problem is Nephite government and early Mormonism are two completely different systems. You can't just generalize both of them with the word "theocracy" and declare a similarity. If you can't see why the whole Korihor story is anachronistic to 19th Century America I suggest this is because you don't understand the historical interplay between government and religion.

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11 hours ago, Calm said:

What study are you referring to?

If churchistrue's, while I commend him for his efforts, he is not trained in the field, he created his own methodology and his work has not been appraised by any professionals yet and he may not understand the implications of the Roper and Fields chart.  So I don't believe it should be claimed that the study is valid at this point.

If Roper and Field's, since the presentation has not been given you, I can't really see how you can say their work confirms anything at this point.

I am referencing this information. I stand by what I said about it earlier. 

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10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

It is not anachronistic. It was a common English word borrowed from the French long before Joseph Smith, and it was used by many writers around the time of the Book of Mormon. Adieu simply meant, "I commend you to God," which is precisely what Jacob wanted to say.

It is not anachronistic for a nineteenth century text. Agreed. But for a text supposedly from a group of people living in the Americas somewhere and claiming to be descendants of a intermixed Israelite tribes it would seem very much to be out of place.

I do not really have a problem with it, since I believe that the Holy Ghost was the actual translator.

Glenn

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13 hours ago, JarMan said:

Yes, this is the thread I was referencing. The study confirms that skilled writers can create different voices for different characters. And it shows that the Book of Mormon does a better job of doing this than four different 19th Century authors. I agree with the conclusion that Joseph could not have done this. However, I am not claiming Joseph wrote the Book of Mormon. I am claiming that a skilled writer from the 17th Century did. So the study isn't that helpful because 1) it doesn't test any 17th Century writers, 2) it provides a baseline using a sample size of only 4 writers, 3) it makes an assumption that these 4 writers would have been the best at creating different voices, but doesn't test this assumption, and 4) it doesn't indicate whether or not there is a statistical significance between the 4 writers and the Book of Mormon (I suspect there is not based on the wide range of values and the small sample size). 

I am awaiting the full presentation that they are going to make later this month. Your position is complicated somewhat by the assumption that there have been one or more English translations of a Latin manuscript authored by Grotius.with the translators injecting phrases etc. that would not have been in the vernacular that Grotius used. How much such interpolations would affect the original voices is something that may not be able to be examined for several reasons.

I did not get the impression that Roper and Fields thought that the four writers were the best at creating unique voices for their characters. They just selected four highly regarded 19th century novelists and "Among other reasons, these authors were chosen because they are each known for their unique and distinctive characters, because they were contemporaries with Joseph Smith, and because they represent both English and American literature." They were testing the hypothesis that the writers could create unique voices for their characters, and apparently they can do so.

They noted that "While these characters’ voices still generally cluster together by the author who created them, they are distinct enough to consider them as statistically separate from one another." From this I think that maybe an analysis of Grotius's works could be made to see if the voices in the Book of Mormon cluster with his overall voice, and if he has produced works that crated several different unique voices.

Roper and Fields did run comparisons between the diversity of the selected authors and the Book of Mormon. They found that "Amazingly, after measures were taken to standardize the two studies for valid comparisons, the results showed that the level of voice diversity among Book of Mormon characters surpassed the diversity among fictional characters created by the 19th century novelists. The Book of Mormon’s voice diversity value was more than twice that of the average for the 19th century novelists."

I believe more work needs to be done such as selecting prolific authors who have created many characters to see if there is a practical limit to the number of unique voices that an author can manage in any one volume, etc. 

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3 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

It is not anachronistic for a nineteenth century text. Agreed. But for a text supposedly from a group of people living in the Americas somewhere and claiming to be descendants of a intermixed Israelite tribes it would seem very much to be out of place.

I do not really have a problem with it, since I believe that the Holy Ghost was the actual translator.

Glenn

I don’t understand how “farewell” of “I commend you to God” could be anachronistic in any culture or at anytime. Could you explain? Is it just because it’s a word of French origin? We have plenty of those.

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On 4/5/2018 at 12:40 PM, Rajah Manchou said:

@hagoth7, is that you? 
: )

LOL. 

By temperament that's almost what I'd like to believe, but pushed back a few short centuries.  I would love to blame Anglo-Saxon Common Law and the Hanseatic League on the Nephites, I really really would. 

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3 hours ago, JarMan said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "parallelitic forms" but I've found many ideas that are very similar.

I’m referring to the hundreds of parallelistic poetic forms in the Book of Mormon identified by Donald Parry. I’m not interested in debating about them, but they are pervasive and consistent in the BoM text, whoever wrote it.

https://www.amazon.com/Poetic-Parallelisms-Mormon-Donald-Parry/dp/0934893365/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1523055345&sr=1-6&keywords=donald+parry&dpID=51OuoI%2B-VZL&preST=_SX218_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch

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15 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:
3 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

It is not anachronistic for a nineteenth century text. Agreed. But for a text supposedly from a group of people living in the Americas somewhere and claiming to be descendants of a intermixed Israelite tribes it would seem very much to be out of place.

I do not really have a problem with it, since I believe that the Holy Ghost was the actual translator.

Glenn

I don’t understand how “farewell” of “I commend you to God” could be anachronistic in any culture or at anytime. Could you explain? Is it just because it’s a word of French origin? We have plenty of those.

The concept of "farewell" or "I commend you to God" is not anachronistic. The choice of that particular word is not normally found in translations of texts with a purported Hebraic underlying text. But I see your point.

Glenn

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22 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

The concept of "farewell" or "I commend you to God" is not anachronistic. The choice of that particular word is not normally found in translations of texts with a purported Hebraic underlying text. But I see your point.

Glenn

How would you translate "farewell" or "I commend you to God" if you were Joseph Smith? I would use a word that is commonly used by my peers, but that's just me.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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11 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

How would you translate "farewell" or "I commend you to God" if you were Joseph Smith? I would use a word that is commonly used by my peers, but that's just me.

Vaya Con Dios? :P

I do not know how commonly it was used in Joseph's day. I do not know if it was something that Joseph used at times. But that does not matter because he did not produce the translation. I am cognizant of the history of French words and terms in the English language thanks in large to one William known as the Conqueror (and another less flattering appellation (another French loaner). I do agree that it is not really an anachronism, though, but merely an unusual translation for the type of document it was supposedly from.

Glenn

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1 hour ago, Glenn101 said:

Vaya Con Dios? :P

I do not know how commonly it was used in Joseph's day. I do not know if it was something that Joseph used at times. But that does not matter because he did not produce the translation. I am cognizant of the history of French words and terms in the English language thanks in large to one William known as the Conqueror (and another less flattering appellation (another French loaner). I do agree that it is not really an anachronism, though, but merely an unusual translation for the type of document it was supposedly from.

Glenn

Or "adios" which is the exact parallel word to adieu in Spanish. I'm still not sure why you are reluctant to let go of adieu as some sort of unusual 19th century English word even if found in a translation. It was commonly used. Not wanting to beat a dead horse to death again, but I provided a whole lot of references to the use of adieu in Joseph's time, including George Washington and Solomon Spalding. Or this last note from Thomas Jefferson to his daughter Martha...

Quote

A death-bed Adieu. Th:J. to MR.
Life's visions are vanished, it's dreams are no more. 
Dear friends of my bosom, why bathed in tears? 
I go to my fathers; I welcome the shore, 
which crowns all my hopes, or which buries my cares. 
Then farewell my dear, my lov'd daughter, Adieu! 
The last pang of life is in parting from you! 
Two Seraphs await me, long shrouded in death: 
I will bear them your love on my last parting breath. 

Or this notice about Brigham Young in the NYT, 1871....

Quote

 

The Mormons Salt Lake City, Utah, Nov. 5

A well-know Mormon, writing from Beaver under date of Oct 31, says: "Brother Brigham arrived here this morning, and after a rest of about five hours, left for St. George, on the southern border of the Territory. He was escorted by twelve mounted men of the Nauvoo Legion. "I am told, " says the writer, "that he has bade a final adieu to Salt Lake City...."

 

Or these from 1. B.H. Roberts' "The Life of John Taylor," 2. Parley Pratt's journal, the early Mormon hymns 3. "I'm Going Away to Zion," and 4. "Adieu to Honor, Wealth, and Fame," 5. Wilford Woodruff's journal, 6. Lucy Smith's letter to Mary Smith Pierce....

Quote

1. The remains of President Taylor were removed to the Gardo House on the night of the 26th, and at six o'clock in the morning of the 29th, the day of his funeral, his family assembled to take a mournful but fond adieu of the earthly remains of him who had been their head--their husband, father and their friend....

2. “In August, 1830, I had closed my business, completed my arrangements, and we bid adieu to our wilderness home and never saw it afterwards.

3. ""I'm going away to Zion, to join the ready Bride, with my blessings on my head and the song within my heart, I'll bid adieu to Babylon, for you and I must part."

4. "Adieu to Honor, Wealth, and Fame and every worldly pleasure, I'll bid adieu to my good name, for to obey my Savior."

5. 


Thus for more than an hour after the close 
of the meeting I was hailed with the affectionate outbursts and 
adieus, and a host of perplexities, of these Saints, who crowded 
around me as children around their father.

At length the Governor and officers of the State of Illinois 
having pledged themselves to protect from violence the Prophet 
and his brother, Hyrum, the latter gave themselves up in answer to 
the charges of their enemies. They took the parting hand of their aged mother, bid adieu 
to wife and children, and left in the lovely city of Nauvoo a circle 
of many thousands of friends who were ready to lay down their 
lives in the defense of their leaders.

6. "I am pressed to close but remember me to Mr. Pierce and your dear children. Mr. Smith sends his love. Please to write soon. It would be very gratifying to me personally to see you again. I must now bid thee farewell--then adieu, Lucy Smith.

 

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