faith and reason Today's Society/Church and Learning From the Catholics

[Gray]

22 hours ago, Calm said:

Grey, Could you please explain why you define mixed orientation as a "specialized moralit(y)".

The notion of going into a mixed orientation marriage (and I don't judge those who do) is based on a the idea that gay people should be held to a different morality than straight people. Straight people generally marry within their orientation, but some feel that gay people should either abstain from marriage or marry someone who doesn't share their orientation, and who they are not oriented towards. This is a specialized morality that is only applied to gay people.

Edited March 2, 2018 by Gray

[TOmNossor]

On 2/28/2018 at 12:15 AM, california boy said:

You do realize that every post you have answered has been to try and prove how gay families are inferior to straight marriages and then you freak out that this offends me?  

California Boy,

I am sorry.  I am the sounding brass and tinkling cymbal.  I am sorry.  I set out to express a position without hurting people and I have failed to do that.  I truly do believe that you can and are likely to do fabulously raising your family.  I am sorry.

Charity, TOm

[TOmNossor]

14 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Hey TOm.  I'm not sure what kind of discussion you are looking for.  You seem to want reason as opposed to emotion, then you supply for me nothing but emotional appeals in your effort to say the Church is right regarding SSM.  It seems to me your position is based on you guessing that the Church is right and you feel it is right because of things like, people used this girl to make a point in a video which you didn't like.  

In the end, I just don't buy the assumption that the Church is right, based on the Church is saying it's right, or some Catholic guy saying it's right, or you saying you are right because you say so.  It seems to me we're each left guessing which side is right and we're deciding on that based on whatever we want to be our basis.  Years ago, I decided to choose in favor of supporting SSM because I simply could not choose a position that was opposed to others when I did not have any other reason to doubt that by supporting them, they would thrive.  I've been very pleased with the results I've seen and continue to hope that I will learn so much from others it is so worth it to support, encourage, appreciate others.  

Well, perhaps in addition to failing to stake out a position of truth that didn't fail to love, I failed to present to you something I thought was based mostly on reason and less so on emotion.

I hope to post some things to Mark tomorrow and I am afraid that I cannot refrain from poking on Gray's latest post, but mostly I want to retreat from this debate until I feel less yucky.

Charity, TOm

[Atheist Mormon]

On 2/26/2018 at 9:17 AM, TOmNossor said:

P.S.  In case it is somehow veiled by what I say above, I do not think I am superior in my thinking to all others.  I offer the above because it is what seems true to me.  If it didn’t seem true to me, my best self, would find something else to embrace that I think is true.  I desire to align my beliefs with what God believes to be true!  

This also means I want to read and discuss thoughts about the above.

Learning from Catholics? I guess it is possible when one overlooks the History, starting from the inception of Magisterium which blazed a bloodbath through the centuries until very recent of Human history made it impossible to get away with atrocities, in the name of Christ. Don't take it personal though, I'm writing which reflects the reality of History. The examples of horrific steps, conquests or decisions linger today in the form of mass suffering of Humanity......... I'm not a huge fan of Joseph Smith but I know His history as well as any student of Him,  He was right about (what He said then about Catholic Church), which is not often quoted nowadays....

Do not flame Catholics.

[MiserereNobis]

3 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I guess it is possible when one overlooks the History, starting from the inception of Magisterium which blazed a bloodbath through the centuries until very recent of Human history made it impossible to get away with atrocities, in the name of Christ.

Yes, all of those millions and billions of bloodthirsty lustful greedy Catholic bastards, who never did anything to help others, who never set up schools to educate the poor, who never created hospitals for sick, who never sacrificed themselves to tend to those dying of infectious diseases, who never fed the hungry or clothed the naked, who never brought the message of Christ to the whole world, who never did one good thing anywhere for anyone.

That's the Catholic Church you are talking about, right?

On the other hand, I'm thinking about the one organization who has literally done the most good for the most number of people for the longest amount of time in the world. Yep, that would be the Catholic Church. 2000 years and billions and billions of members (currently 1.2 billion) means that the amount of good done by the Catholics does indeed outweigh the bad. But of course an order of nuns taking care of those quarantined on an island because of Spanish flu and then succumbing themselves to the disease is not nearly as titillating as reading about an inquisitor, or the quiet unassuming monk giving his life to God is not nearly as spectacular as a sex scandal, or the faithful parishioner working long hours for Catholic charities is not nearly as historic as a bad pope. You've cherry-picked your history of the Church, understandably because who wants to think about the quiet selfless acts of Christian charity when there is so much excitement to be had in the scandals.

No Catholic denies that some Catholics have committed atrocities. I will say that often the bad stuff in Catholic history is presented incorrectly and misunderstood. But luckily we do not have to believe that all Catholics and all Catholic leaders have to be moral in order for the Catholic Church to still be the Church of Christ. We don't struggle with bad history in the same way that Mormons do. I'm guessing that's due to a combination of influences: Joseph Smith and early Mormons converting from protestantism with its inherent bias against Catholicism, Joseph Smith coming from New England with its heavy Puritan background, and the idea of the great apostasy with Catholic Church scandals used as evidence for the apostasy.

Edited March 1, 2018 by MiserereNobis

[mfbukowski]

14 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Yes, all of those millions and billions of bloodthirsty lustful greedy Catholic bastards, who never did anything to help others, who never set up schools to educate the poor, who never created hospitals for sick, who never sacrificed themselves to tend to those dying of infectious diseases, who never fed the hungry or clothed the naked, who never brought the message of Christ to the whole world, who never did one good thing anywhere for anyone.

That's the Catholic Church you are talking about, right?

On the other hand, I'm thinking about the one organization who has literally done the most good for the most number of people for the longest amount of time in the world. Yep, that would be the Catholic Church. 2000 years and billions and billions of members (currently 1.2 billion) means that the amount of good done by the Catholics does indeed outweigh the bad. But of course an order of nuns taking care of those quarantined on an island because of Spanish flu and then succumbing themselves to the disease is not nearly as titillating as reading about an inquisitor, or the quiet unassuming monk giving his life to God is not nearly as spectacular as a sex scandal, or the faithful parishioner working long hours for Catholic charities is not nearly as historic as a bad pope. You've cherry-picked your history of the Church, understandably because who wants to think about the quiet selfless acts of Christian charity when there is so much excitement to be had in the scandals.

No Catholic denies that some Catholics have committed atrocities. I will say that often the bad stuff in Catholic history is presented incorrectly and misunderstood. But luckily we do not have to believe that all Catholics and all Catholic leaders have to be moral in order for the Catholic Church to still be the Church of Christ. We don't struggle with bad history in the same way that Mormons do. I'm guessing that's due to a combination of influences: Joseph Smith and early Mormons converting from protestantism with its inherent bias against Catholicism, Joseph Smith coming from New England with its heavy Puritan background, and the idea of the great apostasy with Catholic Church scandals used as evidence for the apostasy.

Don't let Atheist get to you, that's the way he is.

You make a good point about allegations of immorality in both Catholicism and Mormonism. I was surprised that Rory was so upset with the allegations about Joseph Smith when Catholics seem to remain unbothered by the same kinds of allegations in their leaders.

I could not figure it out.

[Atheist Mormon]

56 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Yes, all of those millions and billions of bloodthirsty lustful greedy Catholic bastards, who never did anything to help others, who never set up schools to educate the poor, who never created hospitals for sick, who never sacrificed themselves to tend to those dying of infectious diseases, who never fed the hungry or clothed the naked, who never brought the message of Christ to the whole world, who never did one good thing anywhere for anyone.

That's the Catholic Church you are talking about, right?

On the other hand, I'm thinking about the one organization who has literally done the most good for the most number of people for the longest amount of time in the world. Yep, that would be the Catholic Church. 2000 years and billions and billions of members (currently 1.2 billion) means that the amount of good done by the Catholics does indeed outweigh the bad. But of course an order of nuns taking care of those quarantined on an island because of Spanish flu and then succumbing themselves to the disease is not nearly as titillating as reading about an inquisitor, or the quiet unassuming monk giving his life to God is not nearly as spectacular as a sex scandal, or the faithful parishioner working long hours for Catholic charities is not nearly as historic as a bad pope. You've cherry-picked your history of the Church, understandably because who wants to think about the quiet selfless acts of Christian charity when there is so much excitement to be had in the scandals.

No Catholic denies that some Catholics have committed atrocities. I will say that often the bad stuff in Catholic history is presented incorrectly and misunderstood. But luckily we do not have to believe that all Catholics and all Catholic leaders have to be moral in order for the Catholic Church to still be the Church of Christ. We don't struggle with bad history in the same way that Mormons do. I'm guessing that's due to a combination of influences: Joseph Smith and early Mormons converting from protestantism with its inherent bias against Catholicism, Joseph Smith coming from New England with its heavy Puritan background, and the idea of the great apostasy with Catholic Church scandals used as evidence for the apostasy.

Quote

We don't struggle with bad history in the same way that Mormons do

This one definitely takes the cake among your apologetic rant..... What part of their history should Mormons struggle and compare Catholic ones? Can you guess one? Is it perhaps MMM or Polygamy? Yes......MMM was a horrible chapter of Mormon history and they have more than enough members to think it wasn't their fault...Imagine to multiply that casualty figure ten thousand fold, (which is a conservative estimate; 10000X130= 1.300.000).....Most of the Popes were political leaders and (the most selfish ones I might add) their actions and inaction caused havoc among civilized people of the world....You look West they ruined Byzantium, to East across the Atlantic how many civilizations were destroyed in the name of Christ? 

And yeah, when you talk about Catholic Charities you remind me of Mother Theresa.... I suggest you google Christopher Hitchens' facts about her.......

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

What part of their history should Mormons struggle

I didn't say that they should, I said that they do. Or at least some do. All the faith crisis stuff, ya know. I'm not attacking Mormons on their history. I'm not attacking Mormons at all. I'm just saying that all you have done is look at one side of the history of the Catholic Church and ignored the other, much bigger side, which makes you a great anti-Catholic, but not a very good neutral historian.

But I'll listen to Mark when he says this is how you operate and I'll stop engaging you. It's a thread hijack anyways.

Pax tecum!

[Atheist Mormon]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

But I'll listen to Mark when he says this is how you operate and I'll stop engaging you. It's a thread hijack anyways.

Pax tecum!

No it's not.... I'm not the one who brought up the qualities of an institution who tortured Galilei Galileo.....You are on the wrong side of History on this one.

[MiserereNobis]

12 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

No it's not.... I'm not the one who brought up the qualities of an institution who tortured Galilei Galileo.....You are on the wrong side of History on this one.

If you are baiting me to respond you've done a good job

Galileo was never tortured. The fact that you repeat that myth as if it were fact within the context of our discussion shows how little you have actually researched this stuff.

You probably also believe that Galileo said, "eppur si muove (and yet it moves)," dontcha

 

[Atheist Mormon]

13 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

You probably also believe that Galileo said, "eppur si muove (and yet it moves)," dontcha

 

"Galileo was never tortured"..... Is this the best you are gonna come up with a response,  After violating the the greatest Man in this time. Think a little who you trying to defend; an institution which didn't even know Earth was not flat. I genuinely feel sorry for you, having all facts in front of you yet blatantly ignoring them in the name of Faith. I know the facts, I was born in the center of Byzantium, when last Emperor Constantine cried for help the Pope blatantly turned his face other way, thinking "If I don't look that way the menace will go away". This is how Catholics delivered Eastern Europe to Islam. Sadly they perpetuated same selfish policies centuries afterwards....There's not a single, positive event that can be credited to this institution....All you have to do is read and learn from the History. 

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

There's not a single, positive event that can be credited to this institution.

Good bye, uninformed uneducated baiting troll.

Edited March 2, 2018 by MiserereNobis

[Atheist Mormon]

5 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Good bye, uninformed uneducated baiting troll.

Yea.....Name calling suits you fine...As for matters of education, you are right, I did not spend one minute in your fantasy breeding halls to learn anything. What I learned came from the real verifiable Historic facts. As for calling me troll, it defines you not me...I would face my facts anytime. And it wouldn't take 800 years 200Popes later to apologize about Galileo....This is not a Religion of God...It is a disgrace.

[mfbukowski]

21 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

If you are baiting me to respond you've done a good job

Galileo was never tortured. The fact that you repeat that myth as if it were fact within the context of our discussion shows how little you have actually researched this stuff.

You probably also believe that Galileo said, "eppur si muove (and yet it moves)," dontcha

 

He is a master at baiting which earns him the title of Master....... nevermind.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Yea.....Name calling suits you fine...As for matters of education, you are right, I did not spend one minute in your fantasy breeding halls to learn anything. What I learned came from the real verifiable Historic facts. As for calling me troll, it defines you not me...I would face my facts anytime. And it wouldn't take 800 years 200Popes later to apologize about Galileo....This is not a Religion of God...It is a disgrace.

Totally inappropriate.  I can only imagine mods have been too busy for banning.

[Spammer]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Yea.....Name calling suits you fine...As for matters of education, you are right, I did not spend one minute in your fantasy breeding halls to learn anything. What I learned came from the real verifiable Historic facts. As for calling me troll, it defines you not me...I would face my facts anytime. And it wouldn't take 800 years 200Popes later to apologize about Galileo....This is not a Religion of God...It is a disgrace.

I’m still waiting for you to tell me precisely how many of the 266 popes were bad men. You never did answer that question.  

[Atheist Mormon]

On 3/2/2018 at 4:26 PM, Spammer said:

I’m still waiting for you to tell me precisely how many of the 266 popes were bad men. You never did answer that question.  

Because I was suspended for a month. I will answer you when I have time. (hopefully without insulting anybody).

[The Nehor]

On 2/28/2018 at 10:16 PM, Gray said:

The notion of going into a mixed orientation marriage (and I don't judge those who do) is based on a the idea that gay people should be held to a different morality than straight people. Straight people generally marry within their orientation, but some feel that gay people should either abstain from marriage or marry someone who doesn't share their orientation, and who they are not oriented towards. This is a specialized morality that is only applied to gay people.

Seems quite unfair. I say we equalize this by encouraging heterosexual people to enter into a mixed orientation marriage with homosexuals of the same or opposite gender. Who is with me?