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snowflake

#Never Again

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12 minutes ago, snowflake said:

I agree that you can't prevent people from going nuts. You do realize that not all guns are obtained legally at the local gun store right? There is an entire black market industry for everything on the planet, how do all the felons, drug dealers and people who can't purchase guns legally get them? You simply cannot prevent crazy people from obtaining a gun, no matter what the law is. 

get rid of the gun, get rid of the gun black market

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8 minutes ago, snowflake said:

I agree that you can't prevent people from going nuts. You do realize that not all guns are obtained legally at the local gun store right? There is an entire black market industry for everything on the planet, how do all the felons, drug dealers and people who can't purchase guns legally get them? You simply cannot prevent crazy people from obtaining a gun, no matter what the law is. 

How many times do we have to have this conversation in this thread?

There is a black market for weapons grade plutonium too. Guess we should just make it legal then. If people want to get it they can.

Still, in case anyone missed my response the first couple of time......This Guy is an antisocial weirdo. He does not have ties to the black market or the ability to easily find illegal firearms. And again, the best kind of weapon for a mass shooting would be a military grade fully automatic weapon. Almost no mass shootings have these weapons. Why? Probably because they are illegal and hard to get.

Does everyone who makes this argument have a dealer in smuggled Libyan weapons on speed dial so they can get illegal weapons on short notice? If not why do they imagine maladjusted school kids do?

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32 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Gladly. If that is what it takes to keep civilian gun ownership down to hunting weapons and reasonable defense weapons. As written the Second Amendment is badly worded and very unclear. Fixing it would solve a lot of problems. The modern gun ownership of any gun is a fundamental right is a modern interpretation created by:

 

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12 minutes ago, snowflake said:

You know down at the county courthouse they have armed security, same thing at the hockey arena.  How about armed security? 

Yeah, when I was a kid I wanted metal detectors and heavily armed people patrolling the school. Makes it feel more homey.....like prison. Why do gun advocates think the solution is to locally recreate Stalinist Russia in our schools?

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11 minutes ago, snowflake said:

I can't help you if don't understand plain English. 

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

To what well regulated militia did this deranged kid belong? How many Indian raids did his militia have to fight off to secure our free state?

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45 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

He had not committed any crime worth incarceration and involuntary commitment is hard to force.

This is not true.

 Records show the behaviors continued at Marjory Stoneman Douglas, which he attended in 2016 and 2017 before being transferred, with discipline being dispensed for fighting, profanity, and an “assault.”

Several students have confirmed they reported his stalking and violent threats to school staff, but it was never enough to get him arrested.

In November 2014, deputies were called to a neighbor’s home after he reportedly shot a neighbor’s chicken with a pellet gun — his mother agreed to lock away the gun and the fowl’s owner declined to press charges.

The family that took in Cruz after the death of his mother called the Palm Beach Sheriff’s Office to report a fight between him and their son, 22. One member of the family told police that Cruz had threatened to “get his gun and come back” and that he had “put the gun to others’ heads in the past.”

All  these quotes are from different articles I previously posted. This kid did do things that should have created a record. The cops did not do their job. In my district, two girls are in prison for threatening a school shooting. The cops found evidence, plans were being made and that was enough to get them incarcerated. This kid made numerous threats. I think Broward Counties policy of not incarcerating and arresting school students is partly to blame for why these threats were not taken seriously. In my city, they are writing felonies down to misdemeanors in order to protect illegals aliens. In South Florida, they have been doing  the same for students in high school to avoid arresting students. 

 

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article201684874.html

Edited by bsjkki

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11 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Except it doesn't necessarily.  Remember prohibition?  How about polygamy?

How many people are walking around with bombs? Not many. Maybe because it's illegal and there are real consequences to having, making, or seeking to buy

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11 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Well harder of course.

That's why if that hero who died in the shooting shielding some kids and who was also a security guard at the school had been armed we would've made it MUCH harder and saved lives.

There was an armed security guard at the school. He froze and didn't help.

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2 hours ago, snowflake said:

Yet that wouldn't have stopped the shooting, he could have bought  a shotgun or hunting rifle legally.

Fewer people would have died with that kind of weapon.

 

2 hours ago, snowflake said:

Or he could have gone to the black market and purchased a weapon there. 

Most kids? No, they'd have no clue. This one maybe, since he was part of an alt-right training group.

 

2 hours ago, snowflake said:

Your solutions have never stopped a shooter yet you insist that they would work.  I agree with you that raising the age to 21 for rifles is a reasonable law that most of us would support. The problem is the 2nd amendment, the supreme court has ruled that owning firearms is a constitutional right. 

When we had laws against assault weapons, these kinds of shootings went down. Gun control works.

The supreme court has never ruled that owning an assault rifle is a constitutional right. In fact courts have consistently ruled against that idea.

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8 minutes ago, snowflake said:

 

I am okay with gun ownership being a right (though one that can be taken away by someone who uses it irresponsibly or has a criminal history or has a mental illness).

Note that the right to gun ownership is not a defense of being able to own ANY GUN. The Supreme Court never ruled that way. At the time the Bill of Rights was ratified firearms capable of rapid fire and particularly useful for mass shootings did not exist. You had single **** weapons with a long reload time. The only way to execute a mass shooting was to have lots of people with guns. A bow and arrow wielded by a skilled user was more dangerous. The only gunpowder weapon usually capable of multiple casualties was the cannon. The cannon was not very restricted and was not seen as dangerous in private hands. After wars communities and private individuals would buy them for ceremonial or decorative purposes. The number of crew needed to operate a cannon made it non-dangerous in private hands.

Where does the right to bear arms end? Sniper rifles that can pick someone off miles away? Fully automatic weapons? Tanks?  Rocket artillery? F-16s?

Your video makes the argument that the mention of militia is just a justification for the right. Well, if the encoded in law justification for the right fails is obsolete what if the right? Again, firearms have uses. Hunting, self-defense, recreational target shooting. Weapons suitable for these roles are probably not going anywhere. Why do people need a right to weapons whose only purpose is killing lots of people quickly? They don’t beyond the ego of people wanting to have that kind of power over life and death. Compensating for something like an inferiority complex? Fear of societal collapse? Need for the fantasy or reality that you can kill with ease? Are these good reasons to risk the rights of people to live in order to sate these twisted impulses?

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21 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

This is not true.

 Records show the behaviors continued at Marjory Stoneman Douglas, which he attended in 2016 and 2017 before being transferred, with discipline being dispensed for fighting, profanity, and an “assault.”

Several students have confirmed they reported his stalking and violent threats to school staff, but it was never enough to get him arrested.

In November 2014, deputies were called to a neighbor’s home after he reportedly shot a neighbor’s chicken with a pellet gun — his mother agreed to lock away the gun and the fowl’s owner declined to press charges.

The family that took in Cruz after the death of his mother called the Palm Beach Sheriff’s Office to report a fight between him and their son, 22. One member of the family told police that Cruz had threatened to “get his gun and come back” and that he had “put the gun to others’ heads in the past.”

All  these quotes are from different articles I previously posted. This kid did do things that should have created a record. The cops did not do their job. In my district, two girls are in prison for threatening a school shooting. The cops found evidence, plans were being made and that was enough to get them incarcerated. This kid made numerous threats. I think Broward Counties policy of not incarcerating and arresting school students is partly to blame for why these threats were not taken seriously. In my city, they are writing felonies down to misdemeanors in order to protect illegals aliens. In South Florida, they have been doing  the same for students in high school to avoid arresting students. 

 

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article201684874.html

Yeah, this kid was dangerous. Some fights in school and a report of threatening with a gun with people unwilling to press charges or get a restraining order are not enough to incarcerate someone.

Oh, and nice dash of irrelevance there indirectly blaming the whole thing on immigrants.

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14 hours ago, Duncan said:

France and Norway don't have the continual problem of a gun massacre, whether it happens at schools, theatres, offices etc. Why does anyone need an AR 15 anyways? if you aren't military, police, protective services, why do you need one? The other issue is I bet you 5 million bucks if a million muslim men or young black men joined the NRA you'd have have tougher gun laws, PDQ. I learned today that Kinder Surprise Eggs are banned in the US, fear of choking, which is real thing but if that is banned, why can't they ban these semi assault rifles and these types of guns?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinder_Surprise#United_States

Duncan, I appreciate your post, but I am confused. Maybe you did not read my other posts where I clearly stated I had no problem with banning guns like the AR15.  

As far as your comments about Muslims and Black men - let's drop the sanctimonious, moral elitism.  Yes, we all think you have significantly better morals than the rest of us.  Now let's move on with the topic.

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14 hours ago, Calm said:

I am not dodging the individual responsibility issue.  I am saying start working on the easy stuff and then keep working away at the problems there.  Insights may come If confusing variables are removed.

What you appear to be doing is insisting a law be perfect and address the entire issue before anything at all be attempted.

When you manage to finally walk into the room with your magic solution, your patients will all be dead, doctor.

No, I just prefer logical solutions rather than knee-jerk, emotional response.  

As I have already said, I have no problem banning guns like AR15s.  Did you suggest something else?  Where exactly is our disagreement on actions to prevent these mass murders?

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13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Oh please.....how many mass knifings by one lone attacker reach this body count? With bombs you assume that the attacker can get the material and construct the bomb correctly.

These shootings are not typically carried out by Machiavellian criminals with underworld connections to Eastern European arms dealers and forged purchase permits to enable them to get banned firearms or the materials they need for a good bomb. 

The reason these attacks kill as many as they do is we let people easily acquire guns that serve no purpose other than killing lots of people quickly. Defenders of this system argue that he would have got the gun anyways if these guns were banned. How???? This kid was an antisocial weirdo and not a superspy. You will note that a fully automatic weapon would be more effective at mass shooting than the weapons used in most of these attacks yet they are not? Why not? Could it be because they are illegal and hard to acquire? No, of course not. Let’s stick to the idiotic concept that legal and illegal things are equally easy to acquire.

Of course taking away assault weapons would mean the citizen wannabe militias would have fewer delusions about their ability to rise up and overthrow the government which is......wait......what is the downside again?

Oh, please - how about some facts.  YOu remember those, right?

The FBI failed at its job.  The local police force failed at its job.  The on-site security officer failed at his job.  

As I have stated before which each of you yammer on about, I will write it slowly, please read it slowly so you get it - I HAVE NO PROBLEM BANNING GUNS LIKE THE AR15. Did you understand what I said?

Now, if each of you get off that sanctimonious grandstand - the other thing I have said was just enforce the laws we have.  We can do a better job just by doing and using the laws we already have. 

Gads, it is like everyone turns into raving animals if you don't immediately bow down the gold calf that they choose as the only way to think. 

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AR-15s aren't any different than other semi-automatic rifles, are they?  (I know that some people mistakenly believe that the AR in AR-15 stands for assault rifle, but it doesn't.  They aren't assault rifles).

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11 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Duncan, I appreciate your post, but I am confused. Maybe you did not read my other posts where I clearly stated I had no problem with banning guns like the AR15.  

As far as your comments about Muslims and Black men - let's drop the sanctimonious, moral elitism.  Yes, we all think you have significantly better morals than the rest of us.  Now let's move on with the topic.

and as such I am here to help you;) 

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34 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, this kid was dangerous. Some fights in school and a report of threatening with a gun with people unwilling to press charges or get a restraining order are not enough to incarcerate someone.

Oh, and nice dash of irrelevance there indirectly blaming the whole thing on immigrants.

I did not blame immigrants and this kid should have been charged. I was using it as an example of how arrestable charges have been downgraded. This is happening in South Florida in the schools and is happening in my town.  But, don’t let facts get in the way of your agenda. Nice hit.

The police do not need people to be willing to press charges to make an arrest. They were at this house 39 times. They failed to follow up on tips and investigate. Read all the articles, it is an amazing example of incompetence this kid was not stopped.

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4 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Oh, please - how about some facts.  YOu remember those, right?

The FBI failed at its job.  The local police force failed at its job.  The on-site security officer failed at his job.  

As I have stated before which each of you yammer on about, I will write it slowly, please read it slowly so you get it - I HAVE NO PROBLEM BANNING GUNS LIKE THE AR15. Did you understand what I said?

Now, if each of you get off that sanctimonious grandstand - the other thing I have said was just enforce the laws we have.  We can do a better job just by doing and using the laws we already have. 

Gads, it is like everyone turns into raving animals if you don't immediately bow down the gold calf that they choose as the only way to think. 

The FBI failed to follow up. We learned from reputable news sources that they were too busy investigating Russia so the local field office which was heavily involved in that investigation did not have the available resources. I acknowledge the FBI failed though I am not convinced the FBI’s intervention would have prevented the shooting.

As to the police, no one pressed charges. What were they supposed to do? Arrest the kid with no one seeming to want to testify? The security officer failed but I am told that “good guys with guns” would have prevented this. Hmmmm......

Enforce which particular laws? Enforcing the laws we have is often code for change nothing. You say you have no problem with this firearm being banned (as it is legal there) but also insist that we “just enforce the laws we have” implying we only do that. Which do you support? Also what unenforced laws would have helped?

I do not find the golden calf of doing things that will likely mitigate the chance for mass murder to be prevented to be an objectionable graven image.

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12 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm posting this despite how I think you'll take it. http://fortune.com/2018/02/20/australia-gun-control-success/

I think this is a good story Tacenda.  I don't have a problem with it.  Since everyone obviously is reading with blinders and projecting on anyone that does not comply completely to their way of thinking, let me again be clear:

I don't see a need for citizens to have automatic weapons.  I don't have a problem banning AR15s.  We already ban some weapons - several years ago "Street Sweepers" - a kind of snub nose shotgun with a circular cartridge device with a capacity in excess of 10 cartridges.  They can be owned with a special license and registration.  As a hunter I don't see any need for any hunter to have a rifle, shotgun, or handgun with a cartridge capacity greater than 10 - and that is being generous.

Tacenda, to me it is important that we do things for the right reasons. I support banning automatic weapons because I don't see a need for them in hunting or other activities.  I am totally against banning all guns.  I also don't like knee-jerk response to issues or when the logic is faulty.  Just because a device can kill is not a sufficient reason to outlaw it.  That is why I have stated that knives kill 5 times more people annually than rifles.  If we really think that anything that kills should be banned then we need to start with knives, then cars/trucks and eventually we will get to guns.  

I just don't see a lot of good logic for much that has been said. 

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6 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I did not blame immigrants and this kid should have been charged. I was using it as an example of how arrestable charges have been downgraded. This is happening in South Florida in the schools and is happening in my town.  But, don’t let facts get in the way of your agenda. Nice hit.

The police do not need people to be willing to press charges to make an arrest. They were at this house 39 times. They failed to follow up on tips and investigate. Read all the articles, it is an amazing example of incompetence this kid was not stopped.

They do need people to testify though. This family that says he was putting his gun to people’s heads never even got a restraining order. What was really going on?

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12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

AR-15s aren't any different than other semi-automatic rifles, are they?  (I know that some people mistakenly believe that the AR in AR-15 stands for assault rifle, but it doesn't.  They aren't assault rifles).

AR-15s have ammunition with more stopping power and larger magazines available then a rifle more commonly used for hunting. If you need a large magazine to bring down a buck you are doing it wrong.

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1 hour ago, Duncan said:

get rid of the gun, get rid of the gun black market

Duncan, let me compare this to the war on drugs. Many drugs are illegal, yet they are still around and still used and abused and kill people. Making something illegal doesn't make the demand disappear.   In France you can't buy guns, yet the nightclub shooting was done with fully automatic weapons....

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25 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

They do need people to testify though. This family that says he was putting his gun to people’s heads never even got a restraining order. What was really going on?

I think we can agree, it would be nice to know what the 39 home visits were for. There was a bigger failure here.

The Denver theater shooter was a known threat too. He could have been stopped. His college expelled him but did not report to outside authorities he was dangerous. They washed their hands of him and sent him out into the community.

 

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3 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Duncan, let me compare this to the war on drugs. Many drugs are illegal, yet they are still around and still used and abused and kill people. Making something illegal doesn't make the demand disappear.   In France you can't buy guns, yet the nightclub shooting was done with fully automatic weapons....

but America is doing something on drugs, why take a don't touch my guns position? everything is else is banned, like kinder surprise eggs..........but guns is not as regulated? Remember the stone age didn't go away because they ran out of stones, they just found better ways of doing things, why can't America follow suit?

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