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#Never Again

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2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Which part of easier are you talking about?  Just guns?  Cars and trucks are far more available than guns.  Where do you think we should stop?  

What I always find interesting in those who speak as you do is that there is never a solution found in human responsibility.  No solution that begins with humans - it is always mother-henning all of citizenry because we have this extremely small group what abuses things to kill others.  Why is that?  Why is it everyone else's fault rather than these individuals that are more often then not emotionally disturbed and ill?

Are places that have tighter gun control and less mass shootings as well as individual shootings known for having cars and trucks being used as instruments of destruction?

CFR if you are claiming so.

As far as human responsibility, the production and accessibility of guns is a human responsibility.  

Edited by Calm

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3 hours ago, snowflake said:

I am from the school of thought that the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Do you think concealed carry or undercover armed security is part of the solution? I happen to think this is a great idea, but can't see it happening due to the politics involved. 

I agree with you! When I worked for a bank, we worked in a trailer on the site of a historical bank while it was being renovated and I was robbed while there as a teller. After that they had a police officer sit in the trailer to ward off further robberies. 

I like the idea of having retired policeman or veterans sitting in the schools. I hate to see it come to this, but I don't think teachers should be expected to be armed and have to worry about guarding the school, they have enough to worry about. I like the meme below:

 

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2 hours ago, Gray said:

Guns are the easiest legal way to kill a lot of people quickly. Of course bombs and grenades work even better, but those are illegal. Maybe not coincidentally, school bombings are rare.

Great, let's be responsible and start having common sense gun control laws. Anything else is grossly irresponsible.

And what common sense law should we pass?
What exactly should the law be changed to say that would prevent these things from happening?
The real bottom line is that you will never get rid of guns in America.  You ban assault weapons, and the next school shooting will be with a handgun or a hunting rifle.
You ban the sale of guns, people will find another way to kill.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_related_to_secondary_schools#2010s

School attacks just in the 2010s have included:
- stabbing in Australia
- stabbing in Germany
- stabbing in Denmark
- stabbing in Canada
- attack with steel toe boots in Colorado
- stabbing in England
- stabbing in China
- stabbing in South Africa

If someone wants to kill, they fill find a weapon.  Not saying we should make it easier, but banning guns changes methodology, it doesn't stop the attacks.

image.gif

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This is truly sad to read. The armed deputy/resource officer waited outside for 4 minutes. Never went in. Never engaged the shooter. The cops were at this kids house 39 times. In November, cops came because he was brandishing a weapon and pointing it at heads. The school district transferred him around after violent, erratic behavior. The FBI did not follow up on tips. There were a lot of failures in the system. This kid should have been put away/institutionalized. http://abcnews.go.com/US/fla-school-officer-waited-building-minutes-killings-happened/story?id=53288339&cid=clicksource_4380645_1_hero_headlines_bsq_hed http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article201216104.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/21/us/school-shooter-gun-threats-first-host-family-told-police-invs/index.html

I have no issues with raising the 'right to purchase' age to 21. I have no issue with banning bump stocks. I have no issue with tightening background checks. 

Edited by bsjkki
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49 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

And what common sense law should we pass?
What exactly should the law be changed to say that would prevent these things from happening?
The real bottom line is that you will never get rid of guns in America.  You ban assault weapons, and the next school shooting will be with a handgun or a hunting rifle.
You ban the sale of guns, people will find another way to kill.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_related_to_secondary_schools#2010s

School attacks just in the 2010s have included:
- stabbing in Australia
- stabbing in Germany
- stabbing in Denmark
- stabbing in Canada
- attack with steel toe boots in Colorado
- stabbing in England
- stabbing in China
- stabbing in South Africa

If someone wants to kill, they fill find a weapon.  Not saying we should make it easier, but banning guns changes methodology, it doesn't stop the attacks.

image.gif

All true, but simply because one solution doesn't solve all the problems doesn't mean it should be tossed.

This is a huge cultural issue.  It will be only solved by chipping away at it.  There are some pretty hefty chips that can be removed and by doing so it might not only slow the rate of deaths, if not attacks (stabbing can be deadly, but fewer will die), but it may removed some of the confusing gunk coating the emotional and social issues, allowing more direct action to be taken on those.

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If doctors approached treating physical illness like government is approaching the gun issue, almost everyone would be dead by the time they decided on the appropriate treatment.

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Comprehensive article on all the missed warnings. http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article201636649.html

“I’m completely disgusted,” said Broward County Commissioner Michael Udine, a former mayor of Parkland whose daughter attends Stoneman Douglas. “There is nobody in authority talking to each other and every organization that had a chance to stop this completely failed.”


Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article201636649.html#storylink=cpy

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2 hours ago, Calm said:

Are places that have tighter gun control and less mass shootings as well as individual shootings known for having cars and trucks being used as instruments of destruction?

CFR if you are claiming so.

As far as human responsibility, the production and accessibility of guns is a human responsibility.  

France has very strict gun control and that did not save anyone in the Charlie Hebedo massacre nor have they stopped the use of weapons in their gang problems.  Norway has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world and yet it did not stop the massacre on the island of Utøya.

Both France and England have had multiple massacres where trucks were used; both have strict gun control laws..  Here in the USA vehicles are the #1 cause of death for people under the age of 35.

No, Calm, I am not claiming that specifically.  However, if you want evidence that cars and trucks have been used as weapons it would not take long to provide a list of events in the last two years where those who wanted to kill people used vehicles to do just that.  Do you think that if you take guns away from people that you will automatically take away their desire to kill others?  Do you think that people might use other things to kill if no weapons existed?

You are dodging the issue of individual responsibility of those who murder.  Knives were used to kill five times as many people as rifles did in 2013 according to FBI statistics.  Based on your logic because humans makes knives than humans are responsible for those deaths.  This type of logic does not make much sense to me.  Are you really saying that it makes sense to you?  If so, when is it no longer your responsibility for everyone who murders others and becomes the responsibility of the actual individual that murders people?

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22 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

France has very strict gun control and that did not save anyone in the Charlie Hebedo massacre nor have they stopped the use of weapons in their gang problems.  Norway has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world and yet it did not stop the massacre on the island of Utøya.

Both France and England have had multiple massacres where trucks were used; both have strict gun control laws..  Here in the USA vehicles are the #1 cause of death for people under the age of 35.

No, Calm, I am not claiming that specifically.  However, if you want evidence that cars and trucks have been used as weapons it would not take long to provide a list of events in the last two years where those who wanted to kill people used vehicles to do just that.  Do you think that if you take guns away from people that you will automatically take away their desire to kill others?  Do you think that people might use other things to kill if no weapons existed?

You are dodging the issue of individual responsibility of those who murder.  Knives were used to kill five times as many people as rifles did in 2013 according to FBI statistics.  Based on your logic because humans makes knives than humans are responsible for those deaths.  This type of logic does not make much sense to me.  Are you really saying that it makes sense to you?  If so, when is it no longer your responsibility for everyone who murders others and becomes the responsibility of the actual individual that murders people?

France and Norway don't have the continual problem of a gun massacre, whether it happens at schools, theatres, offices etc. Why does anyone need an AR 15 anyways? if you aren't military, police, protective services, why do you need one? The other issue is I bet you 5 million bucks if a million muslim men or young black men joined the NRA you'd have have tougher gun laws, PDQ. I learned today that Kinder Surprise Eggs are banned in the US, fear of choking, which is real thing but if that is banned, why can't they ban these semi assault rifles and these types of guns?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinder_Surprise#United_States

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31 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

France has very strict gun control and that did not save anyone in the Charlie Hebedo massacre nor have they stopped the use of weapons in their gang problems.  Norway has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world and yet it did not stop the massacre on the island of Utøya.

Both France and England have had multiple massacres where trucks were used; both have strict gun control laws..  Here in the USA vehicles are the #1 cause of death for people under the age of 35.

No, Calm, I am not claiming that specifically.  However, if you want evidence that cars and trucks have been used as weapons it would not take long to provide a list of events in the last two years where those who wanted to kill people used vehicles to do just that.  Do you think that if you take guns away from people that you will automatically take away their desire to kill others?  Do you think that people might use other things to kill if no weapons existed?

You are dodging the issue of individual responsibility of those who murder.  Knives were used to kill five times as many people as rifles did in 2013 according to FBI statistics.  Based on your logic because humans makes knives than humans are responsible for those deaths.  This type of logic does not make much sense to me.  Are you really saying that it makes sense to you?  If so, when is it no longer your responsibility for everyone who murders others and becomes the responsibility of the actual individual that murders people?

I am not dodging the individual responsibility issue.  I am saying start working on the easy stuff and then keep working away at the problems there.  Insights may come If confusing variables are removed.

What you appear to be doing is insisting a law be perfect and address the entire issue before anything at all be attempted.

When you manage to finally walk into the room with your magic solution, your patients will all be dead, doctor.

Edited by Calm

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6 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

A person committed to killing others will always find a way to kill others.  It does not matter whether they use guns, knives, trucks, bombs, etc. Controlling a thing does result in controlling people. 

Oh please.....how many mass knifings by one lone attacker reach this body count? With bombs you assume that the attacker can get the material and construct the bomb correctly.

These shootings are not typically carried out by Machiavellian criminals with underworld connections to Eastern European arms dealers and forged purchase permits to enable them to get banned firearms or the materials they need for a good bomb. 

The reason these attacks kill as many as they do is we let people easily acquire guns that serve no purpose other than killing lots of people quickly. Defenders of this system argue that he would have got the gun anyways if these guns were banned. How???? This kid was an antisocial weirdo and not a superspy. You will note that a fully automatic weapon would be more effective at mass shooting than the weapons used in most of these attacks yet they are not? Why not? Could it be because they are illegal and hard to acquire? No, of course not. Let’s stick to the idiotic concept that legal and illegal things are equally easy to acquire.

Of course taking away assault weapons would mean the citizen wannabe militias would have fewer delusions about their ability to rise up and overthrow the government which is......wait......what is the downside again?

Edited by The Nehor
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3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I agree with you! When I worked for a bank, we worked in a trailer on the site of a historical bank while it was being renovated and I was robbed while there as a teller. After that they had a police officer sit in the trailer to ward off further robberies. 

I like the idea of having retired policeman or veterans sitting in the schools. I hate to see it come to this, but I don't think teachers should be expected to be armed and have to worry about guarding the school, they have enough to worry about. I like the meme below:

 

Image may contain: 1 person, beard and text

We call those security guards and many schools already have them along with metal detectors and other things that make the school feel like a prison.

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5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

We call those security guards and many schools already have them along with metal detectors and other things that make the school feel like a prison.

Security guards IMO, don't quite have the amount of training these retired police officers or veterans have. Did you hear the latest. They had a security guard on duty the day of the Florida shootings, but that guard/officer didn't go in, he waited outside and heard the shooter. 

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20 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Security guards IMO, don't quite have the amount of training these retired police officers or veterans have. Did you hear the latest. They had a security guard on duty the day of the Florida shootings, but that guard/officer didn't go in, he waited outside and heard the shooter. 

That is a risk with a veteran or retired cop too. It is a risk if we armed the teachers. The default human response is not to charge into a shooting situation.

A lot of security guards are retired cops and vets.

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Aren't American schools not great for funding? don't they need supplies more than they need to arm teachers? I think teachers have enough to do and now they want them to act like a soldier too? 

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31 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

We call those security guards and many schools already have them along with metal detectors and other things that make the school feel like a prison.

The irony is nobody complains that we have security and armed guards protecting our money, our gold, our politicians, our government offices, military bases, and our prisions (both to keep people in and out).

But even suggesting protecting our schools and churches - well, make them no gun zones with some having maybe one cop.  That should keep our children safe.

I want more protection for my kids than my money and way more than for my senator.

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43 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Oh please.....how many mass knifings by one lone attacker reach this body count? With bombs you assume that the attacker can get the material and construct the bomb correctly.

These shootings are not typically carried out by Machiavellian criminals with underworld connections to Eastern European arms dealers and forged purchase permits to enable them to get banned firearms or the materials they need for a good bomb. 

The reason these attacks kill as many as they do is we let people easily acquire guns that serve no purpose other than killing lots of people quickly. Defenders of this system argue that he would have got the gun anyways if these guns were banned. How???? This kid was an antisocial weirdo and not a superspy. You will note that a fully automatic weapon would be more effective at mass shooting than the weapons used in most of these attacks yet they are not? Why not? Could it be because they are illegal and hard to acquire? No, of course not. Let’s stick to the idiotic concept that legal and illegal things are equally easy to acquire.

Of course taking away assault weapons would mean the citizen wannabe militias would have fewer delusions about their ability to rise up and overthrow the government which is......wait......what is the downside again?

Brilliant, can I use this? I have a brother in law and nephew that really need to hear this, but I want to duck and take cover if I say it. 

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6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The irony is nobody complains that we have security and armed guards protecting our money, our gold, our politicians, our government offices, military bases, and our prisions (both to keep people in and out).

But even suggesting protecting our schools and churches - well, make them no gun zones with some having maybe one cop.  That should keep our children safe.

I want more protection for my kids than my money and way more than for my senator.

Good one JL, spot on!

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

I am not dodging the individual responsibility issue.  I am saying start working on the easy stuff and then keep working away at the problems there.  Insights may come If confusing variables are removed.

What you appear to be doing is insisting a law be perfect and address the entire issue before anything at all be attempted.

When you manage to finally walk into the room with your magic solution, your patients will all be dead, doctor.

Oh my, such a good mic drop!

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2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

France has very strict gun control and that did not save anyone in the Charlie Hebedo massacre nor have they stopped the use of weapons in their gang problems.  Norway has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world and yet it did not stop the massacre on the island of Utøya.

Both France and England have had multiple massacres where trucks were used; both have strict gun control laws..  Here in the USA vehicles are the #1 cause of death for people under the age of 35.

No, Calm, I am not claiming that specifically.  However, if you want evidence that cars and trucks have been used as weapons it would not take long to provide a list of events in the last two years where those who wanted to kill people used vehicles to do just that.  Do you think that if you take guns away from people that you will automatically take away their desire to kill others?  Do you think that people might use other things to kill if no weapons existed?

You are dodging the issue of individual responsibility of those who murder.  Knives were used to kill five times as many people as rifles did in 2013 according to FBI statistics.  Based on your logic because humans makes knives than humans are responsible for those deaths.  This type of logic does not make much sense to me.  Are you really saying that it makes sense to you?  If so, when is it no longer your responsibility for everyone who murders others and becomes the responsibility of the actual individual that murders people?

I'm posting this despite how I think you'll take it. http://fortune.com/2018/02/20/australia-gun-control-success/

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11 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The irony is nobody complains that we have security and armed guards protecting our money, our gold, our politicians, our government offices, military bases, and our prisions (both to keep people in and out).

But even suggesting protecting our schools and churches - well, make them no gun zones with some having maybe one cop.  That should keep our children safe.

I want more protection for my kids than my money and way more than for my senator.

didn't they have a guy at the Florida School?  but he didn't seem to do anything

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1 minute ago, Duncan said:

didn't they have a guy at the Florida School?  but he didn't seem to do anything

Right.  That means we should have nobody protecting our children.

Just delude ourselves in to thinking that we can keep weapons away from those who would do harm.

My first choice would always be to ban guns 100% - get rid of  them.

But as long as criminals have them I want the good guys armed.

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Just now, JLHPROF said:

Right.  That means we should have nobody protecting our children.

Just delude ourselves in to thinking that we can keep weapons away from those who would do harm.

My first choice would always be to ban guns 100% - get rid of  them.

But as long as criminals have them I want the good guys armed.

how are criminals getting them? stealing? buying them legally or illegally? which is why do people need these semi automatic guns in the first place is beyond me. Get rid of those kinds of guns for the mass population, hunting rifles are one thing but an AR 15 for an 18 yr old? doesn't sound right to me

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6 hours ago, snowflake said:

Making things illegal doesn't stop the use of them, look at the opioid crisis, heroin is illegal and people die daily from it. Knives kill far more people than rifles....should we ban knives too?

Making things illegal makes it harder to use them. Obviously.

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3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

how are criminals getting them? stealing? buying them legally or illegally? which is why do people need these semi automatic guns in the first place is beyond me. Get rid of those kinds of guns for the mass population, hunting rifles are one thing but an AR 15 for an 18 yr old? doesn't sound right to me

I agree, but the fact remains gang members, drug dealers, and criminals have all kinds of weapons and they aren't buying them in stores with background checks.

Even in Canada there are plenty of armed criminals.  And they aren't packing hunting rifles.  Just go for a midnight stroll through certain neighborhoods in Toronto and Vancouver.  

Remember the Montreal shooting? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimveer_Gill

Making guns illegal didn't stop him getting them.  He shot 20 people despite Canada's enlightened gun policy and was stopped when he was shot in the arm by a good guy gun.

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