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snowflake

#Never Again

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That's the problem.  Nobody knows how to prevent it.
There isn't an anti-gun law, social program, or tracking system that can stop every lunatic from finding a way to hurt people.

Well, maybe one but they've banned God from schools.

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The FBI and Florida officials had plenty of warnings sufficient to place a "medical hold" on Nikolas Cruz.  He is suffering from schizoid paranoia.  Because of incompetence of the government at several levels, young people needlessly died.  The solution is NOT to put more constraints on the 99.9% of the citizen militia but simply enforce the laws already on the books.

Major Nidal Hasan is another case in point.  Officials at Fort Hood knew of disturbing information about him before the massacre but feared to act because of over sensitivity to moslem affirmative action.  There are scores of other tragedies that could have been intercepted but the turmoil in politics has prevented straightforward measures to be put in place.

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One of the victims used to be in my stake. Never met the family, but saw them at many things. So upsetting the FBI didn't follow through. :( 

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4 hours ago, snowflake said:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/02/21/shame-you-florida-shooting-survivors-confront-lawmakers-capitol-tallahassee/358264002/

Another tragic school shooting, so sad.....

I'm looking for honest, ideas or solutions as how to prevent this tragedy from happening again or is this going to be the new norm?

As long as we keep our schools as free fire zones, yes, it will continue.

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1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said:

As long as we keep our schools as free fire zones, yes, it will continue.

 If some lunatic wants to shoot up a school they will.  No gun ban will stop that.  No guns in the school will stop that either.
There are school shootings going back a century in many many countries.
 

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1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

 If some lunatic wants to shoot up a school they will.  No gun ban will stop that.  No guns in the school will stop that either.
There are school shootings going back a century in many many countries.

The fact remains that most attacks are on defenseless schools and day-care centers.  Only rarely are well-defended sites attacked.  Most of the attackers are cowards.  Any free-fire zone is an open invitation to attack.

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1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The fact remains that most attacks are on defenseless schools and day-care centers.  Only rarely are well-defended sites attacked.  Most of the attackers are cowards.  Any free-fire zone is an open invitation to attack.

Probably true.  If we are talking about opportunist attacks (terrorists and the like).
Just as many are revenge attacks against a specific target.  Not so sure that arming the target of revenge will always deter the lunatics.

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1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The fact remains that most attacks are on defenseless schools and day-care centers.  Only rarely are well-defended sites attacked.  Most of the attackers are cowards.  Any free-fire zone is an open invitation to attack.

I am from the school of thought that the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Do you think concealed carry or undercover armed security is part of the solution? I happen to think this is a great idea, but can't see it happening due to the politics involved. 

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4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

That's the problem.  Nobody knows how to prevent it.
There isn't an anti-gun law, social program, or tracking system that can stop every lunatic from finding a way to hurt people.

Well, maybe one but they've banned God from schools.

kqCcxEG.png

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8 minutes ago, snowflake said:

I am from the school of thought that the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Do you think concealed carry or undercover armed security is part of the solution? I happen to think this is a great idea, but can't see it happening due to the politics involved. 

Didn't stop Reagan from getting shot. He was surrounded by good guys with guns.

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6 minutes ago, Gray said:

Didn't stop Reagan from getting shot. He was surrounded by good guys with guns.

I will admit that if a crazy person really wants to shoot someone it is almost impossible to prevent......just like crazies shooting up schools. What are your suggestions to preventing more of these situations?

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12 minutes ago, Gray said:

kqCcxEG.png

Oh, don't give me that.
Seriously, how exactly do we prevent these things?  What law would have prevented these recent tragedies from happening?
Nor is this the "only nation" where this happens.

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5 minutes ago, snowflake said:

I will admit that if a crazy person really wants to shoot someone it is almost impossible to prevent......just like crazies shooting up schools. What are your suggestions to preventing more of these situations?

A person committed to killing others will always find a way to kill others.  It does not matter whether they use guns, knives, trucks, bombs, etc. Controlling a thing does result in controlling people. 

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8 minutes ago, snowflake said:

I will admit that if a crazy person really wants to shoot someone it is almost impossible to prevent......just like crazies shooting up schools. What are your suggestions to preventing more of these situations?

Tougher gun control. We had it before and it cut down on these kinds of incidents. No more semi-automatic weapons, background checks with a national database, waiting periods, etc. Just like the rest of the civilized world

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2 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

A person committed to killing others will always find a way to kill others.  It does not matter whether they use guns, knives, trucks, bombs, etc. Controlling a thing does result in controlling people. 

Great, so let's not make it easier for them

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6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Oh, don't give me that.
Seriously, how exactly do we prevent these things?  What law would have prevented these recent tragedies from happening?
Nor is this the "only nation" where this happens.

This is the only nation where this regularly happens. The solution is simple and obvious.

 

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1 minute ago, Gray said:

Great, so let's not make it easier for them

Which part of easier are you talking about?  Just guns?  Cars and trucks are far more available than guns.  Where do you think we should stop?  

What I always find interesting in those who speak as you do is that there is never a solution found in human responsibility.  No solution that begins with humans - it is always mother-henning all of citizenry because we have this extremely small group what abuses things to kill others.  Why is that?  Why is it everyone else's fault rather than these individuals that are more often then not emotionally disturbed and ill?

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7 minutes ago, Gray said:

This is the only nation where this regularly happens. The solution is simple and obvious.

 

No, no it isn't.

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16 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

No, no it isn't.

Outside of war zones, yes it is.

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21 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Which part of easier are you talking about?  Just guns?  Cars and trucks are far more available than guns.  Where do you think we should stop?  

Guns are the easiest legal way to kill a lot of people quickly. Of course bombs and grenades work even better, but those are illegal. Maybe not coincidentally, school bombings are rare.

 

21 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

What I always find interesting in those who speak as you do is that there is never a solution found in human responsibility.  No solution that begins with humans - it is always mother-henning all of citizenry because we have this extremely small group what abuses things to kill others.  Why is that?  Why is it everyone else's fault rather than these individuals that are more often then not emotionally disturbed and ill?

Great, let's be responsible and start having common sense gun control laws. Anything else is grossly irresponsible.

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1 hour ago, snowflake said:

I am from the school of thought that the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Do you think concealed carry or undercover armed security is part of the solution? I happen to think this is a great idea, but can't see it happening due to the politics involved. 

The compromise is to have locked facilities, so that one must identify oneself before entry, and carrying an AR-15 or AK-47 would be a dead giveaway that somebody was up to no good.  I have actually seen schools adopt more secure systems.  Armed security may also be necessary, as it is on all college campuses today.

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40 minutes ago, Gray said:

Guns are the easiest legal way to kill a lot of people quickly. Of course bombs and grenades work even better, but those are illegal. Maybe not coincidentally, school bombings are rare.

 

Making things illegal doesn't stop the use of them, look at the opioid crisis, heroin is illegal and people die daily from it. Knives kill far more people than rifles....should we ban knives too?

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1 hour ago, Gray said:

Tougher gun control. We had it before and it cut down on these kinds of incidents. No more semi-automatic weapons, background checks with a national database, waiting periods, etc. Just like the rest of the civilized world

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/FPP/FAQs2.aspx

Here are the requirements in the state of Florida for purchasing a firearm.

Here are a few requirements:
 

  • Felony conviction
  • Active warrant (felony or misdemeanor)
  • Unlawful user or addicted to any controlled substance
  • Adjudicated mentally defective or involuntarily committed by a judge
  • Illegal alien status
  • Dishonorable discharge from US Armed Forces
  • Renounced United States citizenship
  • Active protection order (injunction for protection, restraining order, etc.)
  • Convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence
  • Under indictment or information for a crime punishable by a term exceeding one year in prison.
  • Adjudicated delinquent or received adjudication withheld as a juvenile for a felony charge and person is under the age of 24
  • Adjudication withheld for any felony or a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence and three years has not yet lapsed since the completion of sentencing provisions

Any of these will disqualify you for purchase of a firearm in Florida....a very gun friendly state.

And here is the ATF form you have to fill out to purchase a firearm.

ATF for 4473

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/atf-form-4473-firearms-transaction-record-revisions

When you say tougher, what would you suggest? 

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When I was a boy growing up you saw daily multiple shotguns and/or rifles hanging the in the back window of trucks. Coincidentally, there was never any shootings at schools.  Something has changed and it is not the prevalence of guns.  Gun ownership in the US has actually gone down since I was a boy.  

It is easy to point at guns - a thing individuals can use to harm other people - as the terrible culprit.  The problem with that quick accusation is that a gun can do nothing by itself - it is a thing that requires a human to abuse it.  

I don't have a problem with Gray's suggestion that some weapons be made illegal - we already have some of those laws now.  Expanding them to include additional weapons, an AR15 for example, is not a bad idea.  I can support such a restriction.  

A more immediate response to the recent mass murder is simply implementing the laws we have on the books.  Police enforcement agencies need to have a better system of responding to valid tips.  Those who suffer from certain psychological problems should not be allowed to purchase any weapons may be something to look at also.  

However, there is something wrong with a citizenry that produces individuals who want to kill people en masse.  We need to understand the real problem and heal that problem in order to obtain a long-term cure to this societal malady. 

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