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Meerkat

What's most important in the Grand Scheme: Behavior, or Belief?

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Is the right Church or creed the important thing, or is there something else we came here to learn?   I'm interested to hear what everyone believes and why they believe it.  That would add to our understanding of each other.  We have a good mix of people here.  I wonder if we could talk about our first person experiences on the subject and support it with simple faith, scriptures, opinion without putting anyone on the spot about their beliefs.  Maybe another way to frame the question is "What is the point of all this?  What is the purpose of this life?  Is it to embrace a certain belief, or is it to live a certain way?"  Or is it something else?

Edited by Meerkat
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both are true, our lives are like a spiral, increased knowledge should lead our behaviour up and up and up, "grow up in thee" DC 109:15 and of course the opposite is true, the more you know and sin the harder the fall back down

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1 hour ago, kllindley said:

I would say it's neither a specific belief nor set of behaviors, but becoming a particular type of soul. 

What kind of soul would that be?

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1 minute ago, Meerkat said:

What kind of soul would that be?

 

I'm sorry that I'm not in a better position tonight to offer a more detailed and supported answer. 

Short answer: the kind of soul God is.

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1 hour ago, Meerkat said:

Is the right Church or creed the important thing, or is there something else we came here to learn?   I'm interested to hear what everyone believes and why they believe it.  That would add to our understanding of each other.  We have a good mix of people here.  I wonder if we could talk about our first person experiences on the subject and support it with simple faith, scriptures, opinion without putting anyone on the spot about their beliefs.  Maybe another way to frame the question is "What is the point of all this?  What is the purpose of this life?  Is it to embrace a certain belief, or is it to live a certain way?"  Or is it something else?

I think Yeshua will say to someone who says they believe, but don't act accordingly: "why did you not believe me?" This is the misunderstanding that I believe OSAS causes. It is a linear, Greek type of understanding. The Hebrew understanding of belief is one of action. "If you love me, feed my sheep" about sums it up.

Quote

Matt 7:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Those who say they believe in Him, but forget about him during the week, and don't worry about good works, may be sadly disappointed, for He may call them hypocrites.

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3 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Is the right Church or creed the important thing, or is there something else we came here to learn?   I'm interested to hear what everyone believes and why they believe it.  That would add to our understanding of each other.  We have a good mix of people here.  I wonder if we could talk about our first person experiences on the subject and support it with simple faith, scriptures, opinion without putting anyone on the spot about their beliefs.  Maybe another way to frame the question is "What is the point of all this?  What is the purpose of this life?  Is it to embrace a certain belief, or is it to live a certain way?"  Or is it something else?

To fill the measure of your creation and have joy therein.

Without believing that that is your goal, you cannot accomplish it. So filling the measure of your creation is proper living, having joy therein is receiving blessings from God because you are close to the spirit.

No spirit, none of that is possible.  More and more spirit, everything is possible.  So the bottom line is seeking the spirit and doing what it/He says. ;)

 

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8 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Is the right Church or creed the important thing, or is there something else we came here to learn?   I'm interested to hear what everyone believes and why they believe it.  That would add to our understanding of each other.  We have a good mix of people here.  I wonder if we could talk about our first person experiences on the subject and support it with simple faith, scriptures, opinion without putting anyone on the spot about their beliefs.  Maybe another way to frame the question is "What is the point of all this?  What is the purpose of this life?  Is it to embrace a certain belief, or is it to live a certain way?"  Or is it something else?

I tend to go with Jesus' teachings about fruit, and goats vs sheep. It's about behavior, not beliefs

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8 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Is the right Church or creed the important thing, or is there something else we came here to learn?   I'm interested to hear what everyone believes and why they believe it.  That would add to our understanding of each other.  We have a good mix of people here.  I wonder if we could talk about our first person experiences on the subject and support it with simple faith, scriptures, opinion without putting anyone on the spot about their beliefs.  Maybe another way to frame the question is "What is the point of all this?  What is the purpose of this life?  Is it to embrace a certain belief, or is it to live a certain way?"  Or is it something else?

Quest. 1. What is the chief end of man?
Ans. 1. Man's chief end is to glorify God,(1) and to enjoy him for ever.(2)

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9 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Is the right Church or creed the important thing, or is there something else we came here to learn?   I'm interested to hear what everyone believes and why they believe it.  That would add to our understanding of each other.  We have a good mix of people here.  I wonder if we could talk about our first person experiences on the subject and support it with simple faith, scriptures, opinion without putting anyone on the spot about their beliefs.  Maybe another way to frame the question is "What is the point of all this?  What is the purpose of this life?  Is it to embrace a certain belief, or is it to live a certain way?"  Or is it something else?

I believe it's behavior and if only I would act like I believe it.

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12 hours ago, Meerkat said:

................................................"What is the point of all this?  What is the purpose of this life?  Is it to embrace a certain belief, or is it to live a certain way?"  Or is it something else?

You aver that "A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver."  Proverbs 25:11

Yet "Actions speak louder than words."

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4 hours ago, Gray said:

I tend to go with Jesus' teachings about fruit, and goats vs sheep. It's about behavior, not beliefs

To me...it is about being authentic and real about belief...and that will practice out in how your behavior.  Know who you are...prayer..and a certain becoming  is a growth that enables the spirit to teach the soul.  In other words..one affects the other.  We need to learn to let our behaviors reflect the good in all of us.

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13 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Is the right Church or creed the important thing, or is there something else we came here to learn?   I'm interested to hear what everyone believes and why they believe it.  That would add to our understanding of each other.  We have a good mix of people here.  I wonder if we could talk about our first person experiences on the subject and support it with simple faith, scriptures, opinion without putting anyone on the spot about their beliefs.  Maybe another way to frame the question is "What is the point of all this?  What is the purpose of this life?  Is it to embrace a certain belief, or is it to live a certain way?"  Or is it something else?

I consider myself agnostic lately, and that means I don't have confidence that I can know whether there is a God, but it also means that I don't have confidence that I know there is an underlying purpose of life in some essential cosmic sense.   

However, I have values and aspirations and I personally find meaning in the journey of doing and striving for good.  I seek to show love and connect with others.  I want to promote life and growth and beauty and truth.  I find that there are metaphors within religious traditions that can aid in these perspectives and that give me context and narrative to explain how to experience life in meaningful ways. 

Your ultimate question about whether there is something we came here to learn or not is irrelevant to me.  We can choose to perceive value from our life experiences and I think a measure of that value comes from how we engage with and experience life.  If there ends up being a judgement or evaluation of how we lived at some point in the future, I can't imagine a universal criteria for judgment.  I think all judgment must be contextual and relative to individual circumstances and setting. 

I can't imagine a scenario where a person's beliefs are somehow an important factor in determining someone's worth.  I'm not sure we can control what we believe at all, so it seems silly to me that there would be some kind of measurement is placed on what a person believes. 

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20 hours ago, Meerkat said:

What is the purpose of this life?  Is it to embrace a certain belief, or is it to live a certain way?"  Or is it something else?

According to the 1997 Gospel Principles, the ultimate goal is to become a god like Heavenly Father.

"All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like him—a god.
He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of
man” (Moses 1:39).

Jim

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13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You aver that "A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver."  Proverbs 25:11

Yet "Actions speak louder than words."

A word fitly spoken can encourage virtuous action.  A word fitly spoken is an action communicating a belief.  So I guess at this point, I would somewhat agree with Bluebell's comment, they are blades in a pair of scissors.  But IF I had to choose one, I would agree with Gray, you and others that the bottom line is that we will be judged by our behaviors.  It's complicated.  I'm still digesting Hope For Things comment.

Edited by Meerkat

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Because all of our actions stem from our beliefs and faith, they are both critically important. 

In many ways, we are what we believe.

Edited by pogi
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I would make the daring and paradigm breaking observation that perhaps two things are important.

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What if, like multitudes on the earth ,we  believe that to please our god we must sacrifice our children on a red hot altar , or thrown virgins into a volcano , or kill a man and spread his blood over the land to increase its fertility? What if for generations there is no recognition of the true God of the universe and the children are raised to hate their neighbors? What if , because of the " traditions of the fathers " , actions are guided by rules that God abhors ? On what is the judgment to be based, belief or actions ?

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5 hours ago, theplains said:

According to the 1997 Gospel Principles, the ultimate goal is to become a god like Heavenly Father.

"All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like him—a god.
He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of
man” (Moses 1:39).

Jim

I'm not sure how that will work.  But I find some scriptures interesting, like Gen. 3:22, which states "22 ¶ And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:" and 1 John 3:2-3 "2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.  3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."  I think that's the doctrine you're talking about.  

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6 hours ago, theplains said:

According to the 1997 Gospel Principles, the ultimate goal is to become a god like Heavenly Father.

"All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like him—a god.
He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of
man” (Moses 1:39).

Jim

How is that possible when The Book of Moses says only ONE GOD exists ?

1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

 

Book of Moses 1:

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

 

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1 hour ago, Josh Khinder said:

How is that possible when The Book of Moses says only ONE GOD exists ?

1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

 

Book of Moses 1:

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

 

Well, it's kind of like this-- The One God said this in Genesis 3:5  "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."  And in verse 22 "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil..."

I know you have a hard time with that Josh.  Maybe you are right.  But I believe this biblical doctrine is right, and answers your question.

You probably don't give any credence to CS Lewis either.  He was instrumental in leading me to Jesus Christ.  He said this, and I agree with him:

"Now the whole offer which Christianity makes is this: that we can, if we let God have His way, come to share in the life of Christ. If we do, we shall then be sharing a life which was begotten, not made, which always existed and always will exist. Christ is the Son of God. If we share in this kind of life we also shall be sons of God. We shall love the Father as He does and the Holy Ghost will arise in us. He came to this world and became a man in order to spread to other men the kind of life He has — by what I call "good infection." Every Christian is to become a little Christ. The whole purpose of becoming a Christian is simply nothing else."

This is exactly the doctrine I see, and live, and enjoy in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Edited by Meerkat

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15 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I consider myself agnostic lately, and that means I don't have confidence that I can know whether there is a God, but it also means that I don't have confidence that I know there is an underlying purpose of life in some essential cosmic sense.   

However, I have values and aspirations and I personally find meaning in the journey of doing and striving for good.  I seek to show love and connect with others.  I want to promote life and growth and beauty and truth.  I find that there are metaphors within religious traditions that can aid in these perspectives and that give me context and narrative to explain how to experience life in meaningful ways. 

Your ultimate question about whether there is something we came here to learn or not is irrelevant to me.  We can choose to perceive value from our life experiences and I think a measure of that value comes from how we engage with and experience life.  If there ends up being a judgement or evaluation of how we lived at some point in the future, I can't imagine a universal criteria for judgment.  I think all judgment must be contextual and relative to individual circumstances and setting. 

I can't imagine a scenario where a person's beliefs are somehow an important factor in determining someone's worth.  I'm not sure we can control what we believe at all, so it seems silly to me that there would be some kind of measurement is placed on what a person believes. 

Hope For Things, your comments really resonate with me.  I think there is a lot of truth in what you say here.  If I have time tomorrow, I would like to respond to some things I agree with in paragraphs 2, 3 and 4.  Yours was a very thoughtful response, and I appreciate it.

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4 hours ago, strappinglad said:

What if, like multitudes on the earth ,we  believe that to please our god we must sacrifice our children on a red hot altar , or thrown virgins into a volcano , or kill a man and spread his blood over the land to increase its fertility? What if for generations there is no recognition of the true God of the universe and the children are raised to hate their neighbors? What if , because of the " traditions of the fathers " , actions are guided by rules that God abhors ? On what is the judgment to be based, belief or actions ?

Excellent question.  Would anyone like to take a stab at this one?

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12 hours ago, theplains said:

According to the 1997 Gospel Principles, the ultimate goal is to become a god like Heavenly Father.

"All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like him—a god.
He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of
man” (Moses 1:39).

Jim

Knowing what you post - are you answering Meercat's question of how you personally feel or what you think LDS would/should answer? I'd really like to know how you would answer if you were speaking just of what you personally feel is more important.

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