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Buzzfeed Article on Mormon Women Being Abused: I Got Some Questions


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11 hours ago, juliann said:

Just. Stop. False accusations are no more common than they are in any other felony. If you are running around worried that you are going to be accused of murder then you need help. If you are running around worried about being accused of rape only, you have a problem with women. 

How about stopping hyperobolizing what people say and stick to what they actually write? What in SteveO’s post indicates he is worried about being accused of murder or rape? What about his post is incredulous? Is he presenting false information about his siblings? Is there any indication he holds hostility or animosity toward them...or towards women? I simply read a point of fact post supporting his position that women are,  “not always to be believed”. That he thinks that accusations should be substantiated before being believed. 

Edited by Darren10
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6 hours ago, Calm said:

There is due process and there is the safety of possible victims.

They are two different things and need to be addressed separately.

There are two possible innocents when accusations are made, the alleged predator and the alleged victim.

Why is it so important that the benefit of the doubt be given to the alleged predator that giving the benefit of the doubt to the alleged victim is not only ignored, but rejected as a valid approach?

“There are two possible innocents when accusations are made, the alleged predator and the alleged victim”

Fair enough but who would you say should have the burden of proof?

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6 hours ago, Calm said:

There is due process and there is the safety of possible victims.

They are two different things and need to be addressed separately.

There are two possible innocents when accusations are made, the alleged predator and the alleged victim.

Why is it so important that the benefit of the doubt be given to the alleged predator that giving the benefit of the doubt to the alleged victim is not only ignored, but rejected as a valid approach?

“There are two possible innocents when accusations are made, the alleged predator and the alleged victim”

Fair enough but who would you say should bare the burden of proof? The accused or the accuser?

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25 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

What prosecutor wants to hear that?”

Patterico would. Also, there is a DA in our former ward. I’ll message him your question. 

Patterico is a prosecutor?

Patterico's Pontifications, pronounced Patter-EE-koh, "Harangues that make sense" is a conservative media website created by Los Angeles Times reporter Patrick Frey. Frey wanted an outlet to express his opinions and thus the blog was formed in February 2003. In 2010, the website had between 12,000 and 15,000 hits per day. Frey's work is well respected for his investigative journalism. Pattererico contributors include Michelle Malkin's Hot Air and Andrew Breitbart's BigJournalism website."

http://www.conservapedia.com/Patterico's_Pontifications

Edited by Calm
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4 hours ago, Calm said:

Patterico is a prosecutor?

Patterico's Pontifications, pronounced Patter-EE-koh, "Harangues that make sense" is a conservative media website created by Los Angeles Times reporter Patrick Frey. Frey wanted an outlet to express his opinions and thus the blog was formed in February 2003. In 2010, the website had between 12,000 and 15,000 hits per day. Frey's work is well respected for his investigative journalism. Pattererico contributors include Michelle Malkin's Hot Air and Andrew Breitbart's BigJournalism website."

http://www.conservapedia.com/Patterico's_Pontifications

Yes he is. In LA County. 

Quote

LA Weekly recounts the story of Deputy District Attorney Patrick Frey, the well-known conservative blogger Patterico, being SWATted last summer.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2012/11/09/la-weekly-interviews-patterico-about-his-swatting/

I believe Breitbart was one of the sources you listed as to whom he contributes. His website Patterico’s Pontifications is a not too frequent but regular read for me. He makes great points on it. (See also, CROSS: PATRICK FREY, PROSECUTOR BY DAY AND PATTERICO ONLINE

Now, segwaying from prosecutor back to my courtroom question, who should bare the burden of proof: The accused or the accuser? 

Edited by Darren10
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37 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

Yes he is. In LA County. 

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2012/11/09/la-weekly-interviews-patterico-about-his-swatting/

I believe Breitbart was one of the sources you listed as to whom he contributes. His website Patterico’s Pontifications is a not too frequent but regular read for me. He makes great points on it. (See also, CROSS: PATRICK FREY, PROSECUTOR BY DAY AND PATTERICO ONLINE

Now, segwaying from prosecutor back to my courtroom question, who should bare the burden of proof: The accused or the accuser? 

The accuser if it is a civil case and the State on behalf of the accuser if the case is criminal have the burden of proving the case. The one who makes the claim has the burden. 

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37 minutes ago, Exiled said:

The accuser if it is a civil case and the State on behalf of the accuser if the case is criminal have the burden of proving the case. The one who makes the claim has the burden. 

Correct for my very easy to answer question. In the case of the state, it is fundamentally the accuser once it presses charges against the accused. 

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26 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

Correct for my very easy to answer question. In the case of the state, it is fundamentally the accuser once it presses charges against the accused. 

So, what's your point? I haven't read the entire thread. Is someone insinuating that the burden somehow shifts?

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32 minutes ago, Exiled said:

So, what's your point? I haven't read the entire thread. Is someone insinuating that the burden somehow shifts?

As has been seen , the Court of Public Opinion rarely bothers with such legal niceties . Twitter-fear is forcing companies and governments to quickly distance themselves from potential damage.

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13 hours ago, juliann said:

Just. Stop. False accusations are no more common than they are in any other felony. If you are running around worried that you are going to be accused of murder then you need help. If you are running around worried about being accused of rape only, you have a problem with women. 

What evidence do you have for this? I am not claiming any evidence either, but I personally know of multiple cases of false or even exaggerated accusations against men that have destroyed lives and families. Any movement or ideology that demands that automatically believe every accuser is a nonstarter. Regardless of how common false accusations are, it happens enough that we have to exercise caution and compassion for both accuser and the accused. I don't think that is an unreasonable position to take.

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1 minute ago, strappinglad said:

As has been seen , the Court of Public Opinion rarely bothers with such legal niceties . Twitter-fear is forcing companies and governments to quickly distance themselves from potential damage.

Well there is a problem with the public trusting the police too much at times and assuming guilt where there may not be.  However, there are a lot of cases where the guilty claim it wasn't them when the evidence is overwhelming.  The evidence against Mr. Porter looks pretty strong.  As for the other women coming forward in the buzzfeed article, bishops are fallible and make mistakes.  Are 20 cases indicative of the whole?  Most likely not.  But I think it is enough to have bishops review what they are doing and the advice they are giving in these cases so the bad advice alleged to have been given by the buzzfeed bishops doesn't happen in the future.

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10 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

What evidence do you have for this? I am not claiming any evidence either, but I personally know of multiple cases of false or even exaggerated accusations against men that have destroyed lives and families. Any movement or ideology that demands that automatically believe every accuser is a nonstarter. Regardless of how common false accusations are, it happens enough that we have to exercise caution and compassion for both accuser and the accused. I don't think that is an unreasonable position to take.

I agree that society cannot automatically believe accusers.  The problem of false accusations is real.

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1 hour ago, Exiled said:

So, what's your point? I haven't read the entire thread. Is someone insinuating that the burden somehow shifts?

Nope. The point is that it is dangerous to believe an accuser because the accuser is a woman. If you believe a woman who claims rape you also believe whom she accuses is the raper. If you automatically believe the latter the accused is already condemned. 

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4 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

Nope. The point is that it is dangerous to believe an accuser because the accuser is a woman. If you believe a woman who claims rape you also believe whom she accuses is the raper. If you automatically believe the latter the accused is already condemned. 

Like I said above, there is a definite problem with false accusations, especially in the divorce/child custody context.  A good prosecutor, juror, or judge should never automatically dismiss allegations of abuse or rape either but should always look at all the evidence.

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1 hour ago, Exiled said:

Like I said above, there is a definite problem with false accusations, especially in the divorce/child custody context.  A good prosecutor, juror, or judge should never automatically dismiss allegations of abuse or rape either but should always look at all the evidence.

Yes. 

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20 hours ago, Darren10 said:

 

Now, segwaying from prosecutor back to my courtroom question, who should bare the burden of proof: The accused or the accuser? 

The burden of proof...the law officers in investigating and prosecutors prosecuting.

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17 hours ago, Mystery Meat said:

What evidence do you have for this? I am not claiming any evidence either, but I personally know of multiple cases of false or even exaggerated accusations against men that have destroyed lives and families. Any movement or ideology that demands that automatically believe every accuser is a nonstarter. Regardless of how common false accusations are, it happens enough that we have to exercise caution and compassion for both accuser and the accused. I don't think that is an unreasonable position to take.

One can automatically trust the alleged victim at the beginning by taking the accusation serious in order to act on it and verify it,to investigate the alleged crime rather than investigating first the alleged victim and dismissing the case on what you find out about them.

Trust and Verify will get to the truth about the alleged assault or harassment faster than Doubt and Do Nothing because studies (I think I posted them on this thread) show that is very little investigation generally happens when police start from the position the alleged predator is innocent and the alleged victim is guilty (which is what "innocent until proven guilty" means when fully applied to the alleged predator).  If they believe it is a false report, why invest time and resources in it.  If you believe the report, you go out and start collecting evidence in hopes of arrest and charging.  If the evidence is not confirmed through the verification process, the accused is released or in many cases is not even aware charges were made.

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The law officers are the investigators.  A good investigator looks at all possiblities to narrow them down, in reality they probably don't have time and may stick with one suspect, looking to confirm the accusation or not confirm it.

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14 hours ago, Calm said:

The law officers are the investigators.  A good investigator looks at all possiblities to narrow them down, in reality they probably don't have time and may stick with one suspect, looking to confirm the accusation or not confirm it.

Yes, law officers are the investigators (and, forgive me if I am assuming you were addressing my comments simply because you did not quote me). They, well, “investigate”. While doing so, they will / should question both the accuser and the accused. The accuser must tell her (since we’re focused on female victims in the thread) account and follow up with the accused. At this point there still may be no need to prove anything, only get the story from “both sides”. However, subsequent follow ups will lead towards needing to prove a crime. There must be enough evidence for law enforcement to make a charge lest they risk getting into legal dodo. This is one point which concerns me over your post that we need to make more arrests and have more convictions. Sure, we can arrest more and we can connect more, but at what cost? After all, if we as a society simply shift innocent until proven guilty from the accused to the accuser — the claimed victim and law enforcement, we can make more arrests and have more convictions. But would this necessarily be good for us to do? More culprits who would otherwise get off “Scott free” would end up in jail after all. I am just very leary of the new problems such a new shift would present. 

Back to law enforcement. When they make an arrest and / or press charges, law enforcement also becomes the accuser. That's Their job. It is completely on them and the victim to prove a crime was committed. 

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On 2/16/2018 at 7:51 AM, Mystery Meat said:

What evidence do you have for this? I am not claiming any evidence either, but I personally know of multiple cases of false or even exaggerated accusations against men that have destroyed lives and families. Any movement or ideology that demands that automatically believe every accuser is a nonstarter. Regardless of how common false accusations are, it happens enough that we have to exercise caution and compassion for both accuser and the accused. I don't think that is an unreasonable position to take.

I put up a link in another thread and I'm sorry but I didn't save it....and I'm not up to going through that many pages to find it even if I could remember the thread. I'm willing to be corrected. But I think the important point is that the recent cases under discussion haven't been about believing one woman. There have been more than one. What has happened previously is that women were treated so badly they wouldn't speak up, now they are. I think the abuser who only does it once is very rare. The other point made in that link was that few of the false accusations made it far and that a majority of those women doing it had histories of other bogus stuff or mental issues. 

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27 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

Yes, law officers are the investigators (and, forgive me if I am assuming you were addressing my comments simply because you did not quote me). They, well, “investigate”. While doing so, they will / should question both the accuser and the accused. The accuser must tell her (since we’re focused on female victims in the thread) account and follow up with the accused. At this point there still may be no need to prove anything, only get the story from “both sides”. However, subsequent follow ups will lead towards needing to prove a crime. There must be enough evidence for law enforcement to make a charge lest they risk getting into legal dodo. This is one point which concerns me over your post that we need to make more arrests and have more convictions. Sure, we can arrest more and we can connect more, but at what cost? After all, if we as a society simply shift innocent until proven guilty from the accused to the accuser — the claimed victim and law enforcement, we can make more arrests and have more convictions. But would this necessarily be good for us to do? More culprits who would otherwise get off “Scott free” would end up in jail after all. I am just very leary of the new problems such a new shift would present. 

Did you read the link (and quote iirc) I gave earlier about the impact of viewing an accusation as false as opposed to legitimate (Iow act as if true at the beginning)...the difference in the quality of the investigations?

It is not about changing standards.  It is about how well investigators fill the standards they have already been given to find out the truth where possible.

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20 minutes ago, juliann said:

 The other point made in that link was that few of the false accusations made it far and that a majority of those women doing it had histories of other bogus stuff or mental issues. 

My link said the same thing.  Many of those who were accused didn't even know they were.

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3 hours ago, Calm said:

Did you read the link (and quote iirc) I gave earlier about the impact of viewing an accusation as false as opposed to legitimate (Iow act as if true at the beginning)...the difference in the quality of the investigations?

It is not about changing standards.  It is about how well investigators fill the standards they have already been given to find out the truth where possible.

Was that link on this thread? If not then no. 

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On 2/16/2018 at 5:54 PM, strappinglad said:

Each time threads like this come up it is obvious that domestic violence is assumed to be men on women almost exclusively. My reading paints a different picture. Although this may end up with " battling statistics " , I present a link below which indicates that domestic violence/abuse is more a gender-equal-vice than shown by most headlines. I doubt that 1 man in a hundred would go to his Bishop with a complaint about his wife/partner abusing him, and if he did , I wonder if the first question from the Bishop would be , " what did you do to provoke her ? "

 

http://www.saveservices.org/2012/02/cdc-study-more-men-than-women-victims-of-partner-abuse/

 

The reality that men are the preponderant victims of every kind of violence by a wide margin. The reason certain groups in society focus on domestic violence is that it is the only context in which the number of female victims begins to approach parity to the number of male victims.

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