Bernard Gui Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 (edited) How do you undo the effects of true or false accusations? A very close relative who taught elementary school was recently accused of hitting a fourth grade girl. What prompted the accusation was an event in which she raised her voice and confronted the girl’s bad behavior as she was instructed to do by her principal. The girl told her mother she had been slapped. She was put on administrative leave during investigations. While she fervently maintained her innocence, it was impossible to prove it didn’t happen. The student, whose mother was threatening lawsuits, got two friends to back her up, bragged in school about getting her teacher suspended, and regularly taunted my relative in the school. No one who knows her, including her principal, believes she would ever hit anyone, but the school district refused to renew her contract at the end of the year. While she is highly qualified, all her efforts to get another teaching job have been fruitless because she has to disclose on applications that she was put on administrative leave. Her teaching career is over because a child lied. Or did she? My relative could not prove her innocence in the face of the accusation. I would guess many of us have things things in our closets that could be used to destroy us if someone wanted to for whatever reason they might have. Sometimes those things are in the distant past and have been dealt with through the repentance process. In our additiction recovery program, one crucial step is to make a list of everyone we have offended and to be willing to make amends with them when possible. If we spend some moments of honest, serious reflection, many of us will be surprised at the length of our lists. I thought it would be easy, but as my list grew it became overwhelming. I quickly realized I would never be able in this life to make those amends with everyone, but I have become willing to do it in the eternities and I hope and expect that time will come. In the meantime, are we to be given a second chance, or are we to continually expect that our life may be destroyed? I can imagine scenarios where Paul, Alma, or Corianton (who all went through the process of making amends....”but rather return unto them, and acknowledge your faults and that wrong which ye have done”.... could still be confronted by past victims. What to do? Does this repentance apply only to personal or religious situations? Is this even to be a consideration in a public or employment situation? Is personal destruction the price eventually expected to be paid? Edited February 16, 2018 by Bernard Gui 4 Link to comment
strappinglad Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 (edited) This is an example of a gutless administration. A knowledgeable union lawyer would have made a difference too. Many of the latest job losses etc. are a result of the " first we will have the execution , then we will talk to witnesses, maybe, probably not " syndrome . You know what happens to people who stick their heads above the walls. Nowadays just win a few million in the lottery and you will soon see a line of " offended ones " . By the way , Bernard Gui , love your siggy. Edited February 14, 2018 by strappinglad Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted February 14, 2018 Author Share Posted February 14, 2018 1 hour ago, strappinglad said: This is an example of a gutless administration. A knowledgeable union lawyer would have made a difference too. Many of the latest job losses etc. are a result of the " first we will have the execution , then we will talk to witnesses, maybe, probably not " syndrome . You know what happens to people who stick their heads above the walls. Nowadays just win a few million in the lottery and you will soon see a line of " offended ones " . By the way , Bernard Gui , love your siggy. Thanks! No, the union was of no help. Link to comment
CV75 Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: How do you undo the effects of true or false accusations? A very close relative who taught elementary school was recently accused of hitting a fourth grade girl. What prompted the accusation was an event in which she raised her voice and confronted the girl’s bad behavior as she was instructed to do by her principal. The girl told her mother she had been slapped. She was put on administrative leave during investigations. While she fervently maintained her innocence, it was impossible to prove it didn’t happen. The student, whose mother was threatening lawsuits, got two friends to back her up, bragged in school about getting her teacher suspended, and regularly taunted my relative in the school. No one who knows her, including her principal, believes she would ever hit anyone, but the school district refused to renew her contract at the end of the year. While she is highly qualified, all her efforts to get another teaching job have been fruitless because she has to disclose on applications that she was put on administrative leave. Her teaching career is over because a child lied. Or did she? My relative could not prove her innocence in the face of the accusation. I would guess many of us have things things in our closets that could be used to destroy us if someone wanted to for whatever reason they might have. Sometimes those things are in the distant past and have been dealt with through the repentance process. In our additiction recovery program, one crucial step is to make a list of everyone we have offended and to be willing to make amends with them when possible. If we spend some moments of honest, serious reflection, many of us will be surprised at the length of our lists. I thought it would be easy, but as my list grew it became overwhelming. I quickly realized I would never be able in this life to make those amends with everyone, but I have become willing to do it in the eternities and I hope and expect that time will come. In the meantime, are we to be given a second chance, or are we to continually expect that our life may be destroyed? I can imagine scenarios where Paul, Alma, or Corianton (who all went through the process of making amends....but rather return unto them, and acknowledge your faults and that wrong which ye have done) could still be confronted by past victims. What to do? Does this repentance apply only to personal or religious situations? Is this even to be a consideration in a public or employment situation? Is personal destruction the price eventually expected to be paid? I’ve thought much about this as well. In doing so, it occurred to me that while eternity’s opportunity to make amends offers hope for a future spiritual redemption, the Atonement of Christ also makes it possible for the offended to be restored and forgive us, completely unbeknownst to us in this life, and in this there is also hope that they are taken of and effectively undisturbed by us. So as you pointed out, I think the key is our willingness to make good, expending every effort in the process without becoming obsessed (which I see as the antithesis of faith in Christ). Just as those who forgive “let it go,” so do those who have accounts beyond their ability to settle at some point need to "let it go." Of course we have to go through that very accounting process to arrive at that realization. There is another thread about the value of pain, and I think this is one example of it. I believe it applies in all situations, religious and social, professional, etc. The Lord will provide a way to live a better life despite unjust or false accusations or old accusations that resurface if we are willing to observe Him, even if we have to change careers, expectations, whatever may be affected. And I believe He will similarly provide a way to live a better life despite unresolved offenses that have been committed against we are willing to observe Him. That doesn’t prevent us from pursuing legal action where warranted and practical! 1 Link to comment
Guest Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 (edited) ...Deleted... Edited February 14, 2018 by Bill "Papa" Lee Link to comment
Popular Post smac97 Posted February 14, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted February 14, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: How do you undo the effects of true or false accusations? A very close relative who taught elementary school was recently accused of hitting a fourth grade girl. What prompted the accusation was an event in which she raised her voice and confronted the girl’s bad behavior as she was instructed to do by her principal. The girl told her mother she had been slapped. She was put on administrative leave during investigations. While she fervently maintained her innocence, it was impossible to prove it didn’t happen. She does not have to prove it did not happen. Innocent until proven guilty. She should consider hiring an attorney. We are living in perilous times, legally-speaking. When merely an allegation, without more, can destroy a reputation. A livelihood. A life. Quote The student, whose mother was threatening lawsuits, got two friends to back her up, bragged in school about getting her teacher suspended, and regularly taunted my relative in the school. She needs to preserve evidence (online posts, gather statements, etc.), as it may evince some measure of malice. There may be a defamation claim here. Quote No one who knows her, including her principal, believes she would ever hit anyone, but the school district refused to renew her contract at the end of the year. While she is highly qualified, all her efforts to get another teaching job have been fruitless because she has to disclose on applications that she was put on administrative leave. Her teaching career is over because a child lied. Or did she? My relative could not prove her innocence in the face of the accusation. Again, she should consider hiring an attorney. Quote I would guess many of us have things things in our closets that could be used to destroy us if someone wanted to for whatever reason they might have. Sometimes those things are in the distant past and have been dealt with through the repentance process. In our additiction recovery program, one crucial step is to make a list of everyone we have offended and to be willing to make amends with them when possible. If we spend some moments of honest, serious reflection, many of us will be surprised at the length of our lists. I thought it would be easy, but as my list grew it became overwhelming. I quickly realized I would never be able in this life to make those amends with everyone, but I have become willing to do it in the eternities and I hope and expect that time will come. In the meantime, are we to be given a second chance, or are we to continually expect that our life may be destroyed? It's possible, yes. But I don't think we should live in fear. We should live virtuously, act wisely, and then let come what may. Unfortunately, some additional preemptive measures are increasingly becoming necessary. Quote I can imagine scenarios where Paul, Alma, or Corianton (who all went through the process of making amends....but rather return unto them, and acknowledge your faults and that wrong which ye have done) could still be confronted by past victims. What to do? Does this repentance apply only to personal or religious situations? Is this even to be a consideration in a public or employment situation? Is personal destruction the price eventually expected to be paid? What we are seeing is a manifestation of the JudeoChristian ethic not being effectively deployed. Repentance must be teamed with forgiveness, but we are not seeing that. Forgiveness is not in the offing these days. Instead, we see a rather toxic, guilty-until-proven-innocent,-and-even-then-it's-too-late-because-your-reputation-has-already-been-destroyed mindset. To be sure, forgiveness does not alleviate the need for a person to take personal responsibility, for a transgressor to make amends and mitigate the injury caused. And there are some injuries that require the intervention of legal authorities. I readily admit that. But the current environment seems to have little interest in legalities. Livelihoods, and even lives, are being destroyed on unsubstantiated allegations alone. Hence we are seeing stuff like this: Quote Teen Vogue columnist and outspoken feminist Emily Lindin came under fire on social media Tuesday after tweeting that she was "not at all concerned about innocent men losing their jobs" over false allegations of sexual assault or harassment. Lindin explained the reasoning for her admitted "unpopular opinion" in a multi-part thread, first claiming that "false allegations VERY rarely happen, so even bringing it up borders on a derailment tactic. It’s a microscopic risk in comparison to the issue at hand (worldwide, systemic oppression of half the population)." ... Despite immediate backlash, Lindin pressed on. "The benefit of all of us getting to finally tell the truth + the impact on victims FAR outweigh the loss of any one man’s reputation,” she said, adding, "If some innocent men’s reputations have to take a hit in the process of undoing the patriarchy, that is a price I am absolutely willing to pay." ... The most cogent critique of Lindin came from CNN anchor Jake Tapper. "The Lead" host tweeted, "I'm guessing you didn’t get a good grade for your 7th grade book report on To Kill A Mockingbird," referencing the classic novel that features the trial of a black man falsely accused of rape in 1930s Alabama. ... When Lindin attempted to respond, Tapper cut her off. "You said 'if some innocent men's reputations have to take a hit in the process of undoing the patriarchy, that is a price I am absolutely willing to pay.' That’s immoral,” Tapper wrote. "And it's not a price *you* would be paying, btw. It would be innocent men doing that." I read the thread. You said “if some innocent men's reputations have to take a hit in the process of undoing the patriarchy, that is a price I am absolutely willing to pay.” That’s immoral. And it’s not a price *you* would be paying, btw. It would be innocent men doing that. I think much of the current guilty-until-proven-innocent toxicity has been directed at men as a category (though, as you are experiencing, some women are getting caught up in it as well). I have experienced it first-hand. And the people who have done it I had previously held in high regard, which made the experience all the more demoralizing. It was a troubling and bizarre experience, one I am not inclined to repeat. So I have essentially cut off communication and interaction with these people. I think the demonization of men as a category is a terrible thing. And there will be a sore price to pay, in the long run. Men who have tremendous respect for women generally are being demoralized at being publicly castigated for things they have never done. They are afraid of being publicly accused of things they have never done. They resent being lumped in with lecherous jerks simply because they have a Y chromosome, too. They fear that their reputations and livelihoods can be destroyed with a mere accusation, and that such unsubstantiated accusations are becoming too common and too easy. And they are taking preemptive measures to minimize the very real risk to their reputations and livelihoods and lives. When a person is at risk of being publicly accused of misconduct, and when the accusation alone is enought to ruin a reputation or livelihood, and when the accusation is brought in a guilty-until-proven-innocent environment, then these preemptive measures become understandable, but also problematic in that they often entail substantially curtailing what would otherwise be normal and entirely benign interactions between people. I think this opinion piece from the Chicago Tribune makes some good points: Quote I want to praise Jeremy Piven. That’s a risky thing to do, I know. Piven is one of Those Men. One of those big entertainment figures who has fingers pointed at him. He has joined Harvey Weinstein, James Toback and many others in facing accusations that he abused his power to sexually abuse women. Yet Piven has also issued a principled statement that should give pause to all those taking pleasure in the #MeToo movement’s instant destruction of men’s careers. After describing the accusations against him as “absolutely false,” Piven laments the fact that “allegations are being printed as facts” and “lives are being put in jeopardy without a hearing, due process or evidence.” He wonders what happened to “the benefit of the doubt.” To “tear each other down and destroy careers based on mere allegations is not productive at all,” he says. He’s right. In defending himself, Piven is also defending one of the core principles of an advanced society: the presumption of innocence. The great liberal English barrister John Mortimer called this presumption the “golden thread” running through any progressive idea of justice. And it’s a thread that is being weakened in the febrile post-Weinstein climate. It is now astonishingly easy to ruin a celebrity or near-celebrity. You can do it with a social media post. Spend five minutes writing a Facebook entry about how so-and-so in Hollywood once did something bad to you and — boom — that person is done for. You can dispatch him from polite society with a press of a button on your cellphone. Yep. And now, increasingly, even non-celebrities are susceptible to such easy destruction. Bernard's friend is learning that. Quote The “Weinstein contagion,” as a Guardian columnist refers to it, has seen members of Parliament branded sexual predators for such small fare as a fleeting hand on a female journalist’s knee or flirtatious letters written 20 years ago. Earlier this month, a Welsh Labor member of Parliament, Carl Sargeant, committed suicide. He stood accused of sexual misconduct. His party refused to tell him what the allegations were, and yet he was suspended from his job as a Welsh minister on the basis of them. Sargeant’s lawyers said the mysterious accusations had plunged him into turmoil. Although people refer to #MeToo as a progressive movement, it is starting to look like an exercise in public shaming, a rash extrajudicial application of stigma to supposedly wicked individuals. We need to recover the benefit of the doubt, just as Piven said. Some have argued that the presumption of innocence is a legal standard that does not apply in everyday life. The law must not prejudge someone, but we can. In fact, that’s how Mitt Romney framed his condemnation of Roy Moore, the Republican Senate candidate who stands accused of molesting teenage girls. “Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections,” Romney wrote on Twitter. In a narrow sense, that’s perfectly true. But Romney’s line of argument can lead us astray. Legal standards aren’t cold, abstract ideas. They embody what communities over time have agreed is a more civilized way of doing things. People are brushing aside the presumption of innocence as legalism so they don’t have to feel bad when they tweet: “This man’s disgusting.” They’re saying that while judges should exercise restraint, mere mortals don’t have to. What spectacularly low self-expectations. Of course we all have our private thoughts on the guilt or otherwise of the accused. But when tens of thousands of these thoughts come together in a mass public verdict, we behave like a mob. And we have a direct effect on the exercise of the presumption of innocence in a legal setting. How is it possible to guarantee a fair trial for any of the accused now that Twitter-echoed whisper campaigns have pronounced their guilt? Good luck finding a cool-headed jury for this stuff. Maybe every man accused of sexual misconduct is, in fact, guilty. But what if a few did nothing wrong? What if just one man is innocent? If one day you’re accused, my guess is you’d rather like it if I gave you the benefit of the doubt. Yep. I bet Bernard's friend would like to have a presumption of innocence right now. And she's entitled to it. Whether she'll actually get it, however . . . Bernard, I hope your friend figures out a way to survive this. I really do. But I'm not optimistic. If I were in her shoes, I would fight back tooth and nail. Thanks, -Smac Edited February 14, 2018 by smac97 5 Link to comment
Tacenda Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 (edited) Teachers are very vulnerable to a student lying about them. Especially when some youth just don't realize the harm that they are doing. Even when the teacher, or others are absolved of any wrongdoing people look at them differently. Edited February 14, 2018 by Tacenda Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted February 14, 2018 Author Share Posted February 14, 2018 45 minutes ago, smac97 said: Bernard, I hope your friend figures out a way to survive this. I really do. But I'm not optimistic. If I were in her shoes, I would fight back tooth and nail. Thanks for your comments. I will share your advice with her, but sadly, she seems resigned to the reality that her career is toast. Presumption of innocence indeed seems to be going away. Link to comment
bluebell Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 I think it's really difficult in situations where harm was alleged and there is no way to prove who is being honest. How do you protect people from potential future harm while also treating the person as innocent until proven guilty? I don't know that an answer really exists for that question. We are to be merciful, but we also know that mercy cannot rob justice. It's a hard thing to balance. To Smac's post-innocent people's lives being destroyed is never acceptable. Neither is it acceptable that a victim's life should be destroyed while those who caused the harm suffer no consequences. In this imperfect world that we live in, both scenarios are guaranteed to happen. How can we change it? 4 Link to comment
Popular Post rpn Posted February 14, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted February 14, 2018 12 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: A very close relative who taught elementary school was recently accused of hitting a fourth grade girl. What prompted the accusation was an event in which she raised her voice and confronted the girl’s bad behavior as she was instructed to do by her principal. The girl told her mother she had been slapped. She was put on administrative leave during investigations. While she fervently maintained her innocence, it was impossible to prove it didn’t happen. The student, whose mother was threatening lawsuits, got two friends to back her up, bragged in school about getting her teacher suspended, and regularly taunted my relative in the school. No one who knows her, including her principal, believes she would ever hit anyone, but the school district refused to renew her contract at the end of the year. While she is highly qualified, all her efforts to get another teaching job have been fruitless because she has to disclose on applications that she was put on administrative leave. Her teaching career is over because a child lied. Or did she? My relative could not prove her innocence in the face of the accusation. Tell your relative to file defamation against the girl and the parent and the two others who said she slapped and the school district. While it is true that she cannot prove her innocence, she doesn't have to in such a proceeding. The people saying it, the people who didn't renew her contract have to prove it was true or have to pay up your relative for the years of teaching she has been/will be deprived of. 6 Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted February 16, 2018 Author Share Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) On 2/14/2018 at 8:42 AM, bluebell said: I think it's really difficult in situations where harm was alleged and there is no way to prove who is being honest. How do you protect people from potential future harm while also treating the person as innocent until proven guilty? I don't know that an answer really exists for that question. We are to be merciful, but we also know that mercy cannot rob justice. It's a hard thing to balance. To Smac's post-innocent people's lives being destroyed is never acceptable. Neither is it acceptable that a victim's life should be destroyed while those who caused the harm suffer no consequences. In this imperfect world that we live in, both scenarios are guaranteed to happen. How can we change it? Accusations should be taken seriously, but punitive action (including dismissal or annotating a personnel file) must not be taken until guilt is proven or a confession is made. What do you think? Edited February 16, 2018 by Bernard Gui 1 Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted February 16, 2018 Author Share Posted February 16, 2018 On 2/14/2018 at 9:06 AM, rpn said: Tell your relative to file defamation against the girl and the parent and the two others who said she slapped and the school district. While it is true that she cannot prove her innocence, she doesn't have to in such a proceeding. The people saying it, the people who didn't renew her contract have to prove it was true or have to pay up your relative for the years of teaching she has been/will be deprived of. Thanks. We will pass this advice on to her. Are you an attorney? Link to comment
bluebell Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Accusations should be taken seriously, but punitive action (including dismissal or annotating a personnel file) must not be taken until guilt is proven or a confession is made. What do you think? I think it depends on whether or not you are o.k. putting others in harms way if it turns out an accusation is true but there wasn't enough evidence to prove it? (To be clear, i'm talking about real and serious harm, not the kind of accusation that your relative experienced). For example, would you be willing to let an accused child molester be alone with your grandchild even if guilt was never proven or a confession was never made? Would you be o.k. if someone else's decision not to put a note in a personnel file made it possible for your grandchild to be alone with an accused child molester? 1 Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted February 16, 2018 Author Share Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, bluebell said: I think it depends on whether or not you are o.k. putting others in harms way if it turns out an accusation is true but there wasn't enough evidence to prove it? (To be clear, i'm talking about real and serious harm, not the kind of accusation that your relative experienced). For example, would you be willing to let an accused child molester be alone with your grandchild even if guilt was never proven or a confession was never made? Would you be o.k. if someone else's decision not to put a note in a personnel file made it possible for your grandchild to be alone with an accused child molester? Those questions are kinda charged....they evoke strong emotions. What if it were you or I who was the accused and we were innocent? What if our own children and grandchildren feared us because of false accusations? It’s a puzzlement! The parents of one of my students accused of being a racist as part of a class-action lawsuit against our school district.and it was reported in our local newspaper. Those who know me knew it was false. What about the rest? All I could do was deny it, which I did in a deposition, but how do you prove innocence in that situation? They won the lawsuit. Edited February 16, 2018 by Bernard Gui 1 Link to comment
kiwi57 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 On 2/15/2018 at 4:29 AM, smac97 said: She does not have to prove it did not happen. Innocent until proven guilty. She should consider hiring an attorney. We are living in perilous times, legally-speaking. When merely an allegation, without more, can destroy a reputation. A livelihood. A life. She needs to preserve evidence (online posts, gather statements, etc.), as it may evince some measure of malice. There may be a defamation claim here. Again, she should consider hiring an attorney. It's possible, yes. But I don't think we should live in fear. We should live virtuously, act wisely, and then let come what may. Unfortunately, some additional preemptive measures are increasingly becoming necessary. What we are seeing is a manifestation of the JudeoChristian ethic not being effectively deployed. Repentance must be teamed with forgiveness, but we are not seeing that. Forgiveness is not in the offing these days. Instead, we see a rather toxic, guilty-until-proven-innocent,-and-even-then-it's-too-late-because-your-reputation-has-already-been-destroyed mindset. To be sure, forgiveness does not alleviate the need for a person to take personal responsibility, for a transgressor to make amends and mitigate the injury caused. And there are some injuries that require the intervention of legal authorities. I readily admit that. But the current environment seems to have little interest in legalities. Livelihoods, and even lives, are being destroyed on unsubstantiated allegations alone. Hence we are seeing stuff like this: I think much of the current guilty-until-proven-innocent toxicity has been directed at men as a category (though, as you are experiencing, some women are getting caught up in it as well). I have experienced it first-hand. And the people who have done it I had previously held in high regard, which made the experience all the more demoralizing. It was a troubling and bizarre experience, one I am not inclined to repeat. So I have essentially cut off communication and interaction with these people. I think the demonization of men as a category is a terrible thing. And there will be a sore price to pay, in the long run. Men who have tremendous respect for women generally are being demoralized at being publicly castigated for things they have never done. They are afraid of being publicly accused of things they have never done. They resent being lumped in with lecherous jerks simply because they have a Y chromosome, too. They fear that their reputations and livelihoods can be destroyed with a mere accusation, and that such unsubstantiated accusations are becoming too common and too easy. And they are taking preemptive measures to minimize the very real risk to their reputations and livelihoods and lives. When a person is at risk of being publicly accused of misconduct, and when the accusation alone is enought to ruin a reputation or livelihood, and when the accusation is brought in a guilty-until-proven-innocent environment, then these preemptive measures become understandable, but also problematic in that they often entail substantially curtailing what would otherwise be normal and entirely benign interactions between people. I think this opinion piece from the Chicago Tribune makes some good points: Yep. And now, increasingly, even non-celebrities are susceptible to such easy destruction. Bernard's friend is learning that. Yep. I bet Bernard's friend would like to have a presumption of innocence right now. And she's entitled to it. Whether she'll actually get it, however . . . Bernard, I hope your friend figures out a way to survive this. I really do. But I'm not optimistic. If I were in her shoes, I would fight back tooth and nail. Thanks, -Smac From one of your quotes: Quote "The benefit of all of us getting to finally tell the truth + the impact on victims FAR outweigh the loss of any one man’s reputation,” she said, adding, "If some innocent men’s reputations have to take a hit in the process of undoing the patriarchy, that is a price I am absolutely willing to pay." My first thought when reading this was that this person had seen the original Shrek movie recently. "Some of you may die, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make." (Lord Farquaad.) My second thought was that I've seen similar sentiments right here. A bit depressing, that. 2 Link to comment
Gray Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 On 2/14/2018 at 9:29 AM, smac97 said: She does not have to prove it did not happen. Innocent until proven guilty. She should consider hiring an attorney. We are living in perilous times, legally-speaking. When merely an allegation, without more, can destroy a reputation. A livelihood. A life. She needs to preserve evidence (online posts, gather statements, etc.), as it may evince some measure of malice. There may be a defamation claim here. Again, she should consider hiring an attorney. It's possible, yes. But I don't think we should live in fear. We should live virtuously, act wisely, and then let come what may. Unfortunately, some additional preemptive measures are increasingly becoming necessary. What we are seeing is a manifestation of the JudeoChristian ethic not being effectively deployed. Repentance must be teamed with forgiveness, but we are not seeing that. Forgiveness is not in the offing these days. Instead, we see a rather toxic, guilty-until-proven-innocent,-and-even-then-it's-too-late-because-your-reputation-has-already-been-destroyed mindset. To be sure, forgiveness does not alleviate the need for a person to take personal responsibility, for a transgressor to make amends and mitigate the injury caused. And there are some injuries that require the intervention of legal authorities. I readily admit that. But the current environment seems to have little interest in legalities. Livelihoods, and even lives, are being destroyed on unsubstantiated allegations alone. Hence we are seeing stuff like this: I think much of the current guilty-until-proven-innocent toxicity has been directed at men as a category (though, as you are experiencing, some women are getting caught up in it as well). I have experienced it first-hand. And the people who have done it I had previously held in high regard, which made the experience all the more demoralizing. It was a troubling and bizarre experience, one I am not inclined to repeat. So I have essentially cut off communication and interaction with these people. I think the demonization of men as a category is a terrible thing. And there will be a sore price to pay, in the long run. Men who have tremendous respect for women generally are being demoralized at being publicly castigated for things they have never done. They are afraid of being publicly accused of things they have never done. They resent being lumped in with lecherous jerks simply because they have a Y chromosome, too. They fear that their reputations and livelihoods can be destroyed with a mere accusation, and that such unsubstantiated accusations are becoming too common and too easy. And they are taking preemptive measures to minimize the very real risk to their reputations and livelihoods and lives. When a person is at risk of being publicly accused of misconduct, and when the accusation alone is enought to ruin a reputation or livelihood, and when the accusation is brought in a guilty-until-proven-innocent environment, then these preemptive measures become understandable, but also problematic in that they often entail substantially curtailing what would otherwise be normal and entirely benign interactions between people. I think this opinion piece from the Chicago Tribune makes some good points: Yep. And now, increasingly, even non-celebrities are susceptible to such easy destruction. Bernard's friend is learning that. Yep. I bet Bernard's friend would like to have a presumption of innocence right now. And she's entitled to it. Whether she'll actually get it, however . . . Bernard, I hope your friend figures out a way to survive this. I really do. But I'm not optimistic. If I were in her shoes, I would fight back tooth and nail. Thanks, -Smac Teen Vogue? Weighty stuff. Link to comment
bluebell Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 On 2/16/2018 at 10:18 AM, Bernard Gui said: Those questions are kinda charged....they evoke strong emotions. What if it were you or I who was the accused and we were innocent? What if our own children and grandchildren feared us because of false accusations? It’s a puzzlement! The parents of one of my students accused of being a racist as part of a class-action lawsuit against our school district.and it was reported in our local newspaper. Those who know me knew it was false. What about the rest? All I could do was deny it, which I did in a deposition, but how do you prove innocence in that situation? They won the lawsuit. I think that's the whole point though. This is a charged issue for sure but that doesn't mean we can reduce it down to it's simplest and easiest to think about aspect. It's not moral to only look at it from the perspective of the accused but innocent. You have to look at it from every perspective, whether it's charged or not. Issues that have such deep and radiating impacts must be deeply considered. 2 Link to comment
smac97 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 2 hours ago, Gray said: Teen Vogue? Weighty stuff. I know, right? Who expected to see such substantive stuff in a magazine like that? Thanks, -Smac Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted February 19, 2018 Author Share Posted February 19, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, bluebell said: I think that's the whole point though. This is a charged issue for sure but that doesn't mean we can reduce it down to it's simplest and easiest to think about aspect. It's not moral to only look at it from the perspective of the accused but innocent. You have to look at it from every perspective, whether it's charged or not. Issues that have such deep and radiating impacts must be deeply considered. Indeed. I was looking at it from the point of view of one who was falsely accused and who lost. Deep impacts for sure. Edited February 19, 2018 by Bernard Gui 1 Link to comment
Danzo Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 21 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Indeed. I was looking at it from the point of view of one who was falsely accused and who lost. Deep impacts for sure. I don't think people can understand the impact of a false accusation until it has happened to them. I think you have to experience it to actually get it. I remember as a twelve year old, there was a false accusation leveled against our family. The trauma of having the police show up at your house in force, being told to do things at gunpoint. Who do you call when it is the police that are assaulting you? Our trust in that institution was and still continues to be lost. On an intellectual level, I can accept it was a mistake, on an emotional level it is not so easy. I remember arrangements being made to hide at other peoples house. From the Police! To this day no one in our family will ever allow a police officer in the house. 2 Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted February 19, 2018 Author Share Posted February 19, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Danzo said: I don't think people can understand the impact of a false accusation until it has happened to them. I think you have to experience it to actually get it. I remember as a twelve year old, there was a false accusation leveled against our family. The trauma of having the police show up at your house in force, being told to do things at gunpoint. Who do you call when it is the police that are assaulting you? Our trust in that institution was and still continues to be lost. On an intellectual level, I can accept it was a mistake, on an emotional level it is not so easy. I remember arrangements being made to hide at other peoples house. From the Police! To this day no one in our family will ever allow a police officer in the house. Even though there was some merit to the class-action lawsuit, every time I drive past the mega-box-church that the accusers built with the huge amount of money they gained partly by falsely accusing me and others in pursuit of their goal, I’m reminded of the feelings you describe. Shakes your faith in the system...how it can be used sometimes with impunity wnen railroading tactics are employed. Edited February 19, 2018 by Bernard Gui 2 Link to comment
bluebell Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 40 minutes ago, Danzo said: I don't think people can understand the impact of a false accusation until it has happened to them. I think you have to experience it to actually get it. I remember as a twelve year old, there was a false accusation leveled against our family. The trauma of having the police show up at your house in force, being told to do things at gunpoint. Who do you call when it is the police that are assaulting you? Our trust in that institution was and still continues to be lost. On an intellectual level, I can accept it was a mistake, on an emotional level it is not so easy. I remember arrangements being made to hide at other peoples house. From the Police! To this day no one in our family will ever allow a police officer in the house. I have no doubt that is true. I can imagine what it would be like but I can't really know. It would be absolutely devastating. Likewise, i don't think people understand the impact of leveling a true accusation and not being believed and being openly mocked and persecuted for it, or even threaten with retaliation. This is a very emotional issue on both sides; that's probably why it's difficult to find any good answers to the the questions is brings up. Link to comment
Rain Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 (edited) 57 minutes ago, bluebell said: I have no doubt that is true. I can imagine what it would be like but I can't really know. It would be absolutely devastating. Likewise, i don't think people understand the impact of leveling a true accusation and not being believed and being openly mocked and persecuted for it, or even threaten with retaliation. This is a very emotional issue on both sides; that's probably why it's difficult to find any good answers to the the questions is brings up. Yes. When my 5 month old daughter was accidentally scalded by another child we were watched to see if we were abusers. Not only were we worried about her, but really scared that something we did might be seen wrong and that would mean both our children were taken away etc. A lot of people tried to help me see the other side - "this means they are concerned about the safety of children", but no one ever said, "I understand why you are concerned." It made us feel very alone. Now that we are 19 years past that the fears have gone away and I can see why real victims feel even more alone before someone believes them - but I don't understand it completely because I haven't been in that fear filled place. Edited February 19, 2018 by Rain 1 Link to comment
Danzo Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 25 minutes ago, bluebell said: I have no doubt that is true. I can imagine what it would be like but I can't really know. It would be absolutely devastating. Likewise, i don't think people understand the impact of leveling a true accusation and not being believed and being openly mocked and persecuted for it, or even threaten with retaliation. This is a very emotional issue on both sides; that's probably why it's difficult to find any good answers to the the questions is brings up. Experience definitely changes perspective. My wife experienced sexual abuse as a child. While she has, through the help of the atonement, been able to forgive and move on in her life, there is still a healthy lack of trust in other men. My children, perhaps, feel they have more restrictions on sleepovers, and spending time at other people's houses, etc than many other children as a result. When they complain about us being too restrictive, we can only hope that they are right and will always feel that way, that they won't have the life experiences to make them truly understand why those restrictions feel so justified to us. 2 Link to comment
Meerkat Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 (edited) On 2/13/2018 at 8:55 PM, Bernard Gui said: Is personal destruction the price eventually expected to be paid? Edited February 24, 2018 by Meerkat Link to comment
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