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USU78

The Problem of Pain in Genesis 15

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1 hour ago, USU78 said:

The text I reference in Genesis 15 is here in verses 8-21:

And he [Abram] said, "Lord God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it [Canaan]?"  And [H]e [G-d] said unto him, "Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon."  

And he took unto him [G-d] all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.  And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.  And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.  And [H]e [G-d] said unto Abram, "Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.  And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.  But in the fourth generation they shall come hitheragain: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full."

And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.  

In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, "Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:  The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites."

I have bolded a specific passage and redlettered G-d's words to Abram.

Terryl and Fiona Givens mention the bolded passage in their most recent book, which I finished a couple of weeks ago.  They make the usual reference to the Master's torn and pierced body being represented by the rent veil of the Herodian Temple, and make the now obvious to me connection to the veil in our Temple:  to pass into the Holiest Place, one must pass through the veil, which is the torn body of Christ, as there is no other way to return to G-d's presence.

This is a beautiful conceit and one to make us all weep:  The burning Lamp is the Light of G-d, which lights the world, and it is the Master that passes between the severed carcasses of Abram's sacrifice.

Ritually, this is perfect, yet there's more to be mined here, IMO, than the Givens did in their book, The Christ Who Heals.

Our hearts, our bodies, our lives are necessarily riven, and broken, and rent in twain by what we suffer in life.  And we all suffer.  We are all Job.

But, there is no other way, as someone once asked.  We are rent in twain that the burning Lamp, which is the Light of G-d, Who lights the world may pass between us, filling the void in our innermost selves with light and love.  Without suffering this, we cannot see the Light.

Problem of Pain?  It is the necessary condition we find ourselves in following our volitional entrance into this world.  As Abram divides the sacrifice in two, we place our rent hearts on the altar to permit the Lamp to pass through, leading us whither He will, as we all desire.

"Without suffering this, we cannot see the Light." ....This is wrong....very wrong. I'd rather see see the light without suffering, (I guess I had my share of it as many of us did). I have family members, dear friends suffered from back pain to deadly cancer...I don't get your point here what is to be gained by living such calamities...

Edited by Atheist Mormon
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19 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

"Without suffering this, we cannot see the Light." ....This is wrong....very wrong. I'd rather see see the light without suffering, (I guess I had my share of it as many of us did). I have family members, dear friends suffered from back pain to deadly cancer...I don't get your point here what is to be gained by living such calamities...

As the Dread Pirate once remarked:  "Life is pain, highness.  Anyone says different is selling something."

And as the poet put it, "Dark is what brings out Your Light."  Lehi understood it all very well.

 

Edited by USU78
Great posts should have great accompaniment.

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5 hours ago, USU78 said:

The text I reference in Genesis 15 is here in verses 8-21:

And he [Abram] said, "Lord God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it [Canaan]?"  And [H]e [G-d] said unto him, "Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon."  

And he took unto him [G-d] all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.  And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.  And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.  And [H]e [G-d] said unto Abram, "Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.  And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.  But in the fourth generation they shall come hitheragain: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full."

And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.  

In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, "Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:  The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites."

I have bolded a specific passage and redlettered G-d's words to Abram.

Terryl and Fiona Givens mention the bolded passage in their most recent book, which I finished a couple of weeks ago.  They make the usual reference to the Master's torn and pierced body being represented by the rent veil of the Herodian Temple, and make the now obvious to me connection to the veil in our Temple:  to pass into the Holiest Place, one must pass through the veil, which is the torn body of Christ, as there is no other way to return to G-d's presence.

This is a beautiful conceit and one to make us all weep:  The burning Lamp is the Light of G-d, which lights the world, and it is the Master that passes between the severed carcasses of Abram's sacrifice.

Ritually, this is perfect, yet there's more to be mined here, IMO, than the Givens did in their book, The Christ Who Heals.

Our hearts, our bodies, our lives are necessarily riven, and broken, and rent in twain by what we suffer in life.  And we all suffer.  We are all Job.

But, there is no other way, as someone once asked.  We are rent in twain that the burning Lamp, which is the Light of G-d, Who lights the world may pass between us, filling the void in our innermost selves with light and love.  Without suffering this, we cannot see the Light.

Problem of Pain?  It is the necessary condition we find ourselves in following our volitional entrance into this world.  As Abram divides the sacrifice in two, we place our rent hearts on the altar to permit the Lamp to pass through, leading us whither He will, as we all desire.

Ich bedanke mich für diese wunderbare Erkenntnisse!

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7 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

Ich bedanke mich für diese wunderbare Erkenntnisse!

Ebenfalls!

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6 hours ago, USU78 said:

The text I reference in Genesis 15 is here in verses 8-21:

And he [Abram] said, "Lord God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it [Canaan]?"  And [H]e [G-d] said unto him, "Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon."  

And he took unto him [G-d] all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.  And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.  And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.  And [H]e [G-d] said unto Abram, "Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.  And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.  But in the fourth generation they shall come hitheragain: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full."

And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.  

In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, "Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:  The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites."

I have bolded a specific passage and redlettered G-d's words to Abram.

Terryl and Fiona Givens mention the bolded passage in their most recent book, which I finished a couple of weeks ago.  They make the usual reference to the Master's torn and pierced body being represented by the rent veil of the Herodian Temple, and make the now obvious to me connection to the veil in our Temple:  to pass into the Holiest Place, one must pass through the veil, which is the torn body of Christ, as there is no other way to return to G-d's presence.

This is a beautiful conceit and one to make us all weep:  The burning Lamp is the Light of G-d, which lights the world, and it is the Master that passes between the severed carcasses of Abram's sacrifice.

Ritually, this is perfect, yet there's more to be mined here, IMO, than the Givens did in their book, The Christ Who Heals.

Our hearts, our bodies, our lives are necessarily riven, and broken, and rent in twain by what we suffer in life.  And we all suffer.  We are all Job.

But, there is no other way, as someone once asked.  We are rent in twain that the burning Lamp, which is the Light of G-d, Who lights the world may pass between us, filling the void in our innermost selves with light and love.  Without suffering this, we cannot see the Light.

Problem of Pain?  It is the necessary condition we find ourselves in following our volitional entrance into this world.  As Abram divides the sacrifice in two, we place our rent hearts on the altar to permit the Lamp to pass through, leading us whither He will, as we all desire.

Hebrews 10

Quote

 

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

It's hard to read this without the interpretation you bring up here, and there is so much in this post upon which to comment, I almost don't know where to start.

I have just about finished the Givens book myself and am in the process of doing a review and so I have a lot of thoughts on it.  As temple workers we are cautioned not to hold the veil out, which is the first "polite" thing to do to assist someone passing, we often open doors for others etc- yet in this case the instruction is clear that one must push through on their own after the invitation to do so and an extended hand- nothing more.

Upon my first noticing this scripture after my first visit, I have never forgotten it and found it repeatedly to be profound on many levels, and clearly a "temple scripture"

Nietzsche speaks of the highest affirmation of life for humans is to wish that every pain, every regret, every happiness, every joy, be repeated in an endless recurrence  of our lives.

Quote

 

The Heaviest Burden.
 What if a demon crept after you into your loneliest loneliness some day or night, and said to you: "This life, as you live it at present, and have lived it, you must live it once more, and also innumerable times; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and every sigh, and all the unspeakably small and great in thy life must come to you again, and all in the same series and sequence - and similarly this spider and this moonlight among the trees, and similarly this moment, and I myself. The eternal sand-glass of existence will ever be turned once more, and you with it, you speck of dust!" - Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth, and curse the demon that so spoke? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment in which you would answer him: "You are a God, and never did I hear anything so divine!" If that thought acquired power over you as you are, it would transform you, and perhaps crush you; the question with regard to all and everything: "Do you want this once more, and also for innumerable times?" would lie as the heaviest burden upon your activity! Or, how would you have to become favourably inclined to yourself and to life, so as to long for nothing more ardently than for this last eternal sanctioning and sealing?

Gay Science Book 4 Aphorism 341

This is the highest affirmation of the idea of "opposition in all things" and therefore in seeing pain as a positive event in one's life

Pain is the great teacher.  Without it we cannot know joy.  It teaches us to overcome the world and overcoming the world IS overcoming pain.  Imagine the Father overcoming His pain at the crucifixion, experiencing ever lash and nail with his Son as One, in one Mind.   That is one place I might disagree with the usual Givens view of the Father retreating to a corner in space/time to endure that alone, I think he saw it as the greatest success of His Son in overcoming the world.

Edited by mfbukowski

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6 hours ago, USU78 said:

................................................

And he took unto him [G-d] all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.  ........................................

And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.  

Yahweh is making a covenant with Abram, and he declares by oath what that entails.  Even though it doesn't say so, Abram walked between the pieces as part of the standard covenantal ritual, indicating his recognition of the penalty for failure to keep the covenant (in which case, the same will happen him).  Perhaps the brazier and fiery torch which passed between the pieces represents Yahweh, as you say.

6 hours ago, USU78 said:

In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, "Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: .............................

So, Abram's descendants are to be given the territory from the Nile River to the Euphrates.  That's a lot, and the Israelis today do not own that in full.

6 hours ago, USU78 said:

.................................... the Master's torn and pierced body being represented by the rent veil of the Herodian Temple, and make the now obvious to me connection to the veil in our Temple:  to pass into the Holiest Place, one must pass through the veil, which is the torn body of Christ, as there is no other way to return to G-d's presence.

This is a beautiful conceit and one to make us all weep:  The burning Lamp is the Light of G-d, which lights the world, and it is the Master that passes between the severed carcasses of Abram's sacrifice.

.......................  And we all suffer.  We are all Job.

But, there is no other way, as someone once asked.  We are rent in twain that the burning Lamp, which is the Light of G-d, Who lights the world may pass between us, filling the void in our innermost selves with light and love.  Without suffering this, we cannot see the Light.

Problem of Pain?  It is the necessary condition we find ourselves in following our volitional entrance into this world.  As Abram divides the sacrifice in two, we place our rent hearts on the altar to permit the Lamp to pass through, leading us whither He will, as we all desire.

Nice.

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13 hours ago, USU78 said:

As the Dread Pirate once remarked:  "Life is pain, highness.  Anyone says different is selling something."

And as the poet put it, "Dark is what brings out Your Light."  Lehi understood it all very well.

Yea, I like Dread Pirate as much as you do, pain is something I'd like to do without. 

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2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Yea, I like Dread Pirate as much as you do, pain is something I'd like to do without. 

I don't disagree.  Life would be far more agreeable if pain weren't so pandemic a phenomenon.

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15 hours ago, Maidservant said:

Anthem.png

I've loved his stuff ever since I first heard Suzanne.

 

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14 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yahweh is making a covenant with Abram, and he declares by oath what that entails.  Even though it doesn't say so, Abram walked between the pieces as part of the standard covenantal ritual, indicating his recognition of the penalty for failure to keep the covenant (in which case, the same will happen him).  Perhaps the brazier and fiery torch which passed between the pieces represents Yahweh, as you say.

Agreed.  The covenant particular that Abram was most concerned about early in the encounter was his posterity.  The initial response seems to be, "Oh, don't worry about that  ...  worry about the troubles they're going to have to endure, but be happy that I am watching over and will one day deliver them, and oh boy are they going to land in a great place.  And, by the way, the rest of your life is going to be terrific."

As far as the particulars of the ritual, I agree that Abram walks that path between the burning, bloody heaps [as we all must], but my fancy is that he follows the "lamp" through as the "furnace of fire" devours and sanctifies the divided sacrifice.  Whether Abram carries an earthly torch of earthy fire, or Yahweh beckons with a sublime torch of heavenly fire, or both, I'm not sure it matters.

Thanks for thoughtful response.

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1 hour ago, USU78 said:

I don't disagree.  Life would be far more agreeable if pain weren't so pandemic a phenomenon.

How could a God design such horrible viruses & cancer cells to cause so much pain though?

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25 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

How could a God design such horrible viruses & cancer cells to cause so much pain though?

Does He design them, or is He one of the opposing principles? I think He is the latter. 

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38 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

How could a God design such horrible viruses & cancer cells to cause so much pain though?

Viruses don't have much of a life, but life they are.  They "look after themselves," as Hagrid would say.  They have as much right here as we do, though I have no qualms about killing 'em, either with my inborn defense system or by other methods devised by our collective genius.

As for cancer:  what causes it?  What causes the body to predate itself?  I lived in auto-immune dysfunction land for over 20 years, caring for a spouse-patient.  I know she despised herself.  I won't share why.  Just know that, what I've learned about cancer and other auto-immune horrors is that there tends certain connections between what is attacked and what's going on inside the heart and soul of the patient.  If you hate yourself, hate your body, that inevitably leads to physical problems.

My sun spots on my face will probably develop into melanoma some day.  It was my choice to be a sunworshipper in my youth, going shirtless as often as I could each summer.  There I'd be, hoeing the cantelopes, parting the vines, harvesting the fruit, shirtless in 100+ degree sunshine.  Whose fault will those melanomas be?

I knew a woman well, a younger sister.  Both sisters had a genetic predisposition to breast cancer.  Older sister, in a solid marriage, beat the beast and is still living 30 years later.  Younger sister, who got no support, emotional sustenance, or love in her decidedly unhappy marriage to a nasty narcissist, succumbed.  In my heart I'm convinced nasty no-support, no-sustenance, no-love boy killed her with his abuse, neglect, and profound betrayal.

Who put younger sister on her Via Dolorosa?  Was it the genetic defect that's nobody's fault, that's simply one of those possible outcomes when the proverbial cup gets dipped into the genetic pond at conception?  Of course not.  In this day and age women endure, recover, and live long and happily even when the bug bites them.  It was the one who broke her heart put her there, wasn't it?

I don't have all the answers, but I am certain of this:  a G-d Who weeps at the pain of even His most unruly and disobedient children is not the moral monster you imply.

Edited by USU78
Anybody know how to remove the strike-through? Tried clicking the icon. Nothing.

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3 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

How could a God design such horrible viruses & cancer cells to cause so much pain though?

It goes with the territory, and we signed on in the Great Council to accept the vicissitudes of nature in full, till Kingdom Come.  That doesn't make it easy or fun, but it is what it is.  You just have to man up.

At the same time, unmerited suffering is redemptive.

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50 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It goes with the territory, and we signed on in the Great Council to accept the vicissitudes of nature in full, till Kingdom Come.  That doesn't make it easy or fun, but it is what it is.  You just have to man up.

At the same time, unmerited suffering is redemptive.

"You just have to man up" I  couldn't put it any better. Only problem is you pegged this on the wrong side. I was always willing to play this game all out....Guess who chickened out? 

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42 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

"You just have to man up" I  couldn't put it any better. Only problem is you pegged this on the wrong side. I was always willing to play this game all out....Guess who chickened out? 

I can't imagine:  Who?  Your bishop?

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17 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I can't imagine:  Who?  Your bishop?

Heck no...I have mostly respect for them, you gotta go unimaginably higher I'm afraid.........

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4 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Heck no...I have mostly respect for them, you gotta go unimaginably higher I'm afraid.........

Well, I know that Satan chickened out.  That's why he wanted everyone forced to be good and all to be saved.  No pain.

God the Father replied:  "No pain, no gain."

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9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Well, I know that Satan chickened out.  That's why he wanted everyone forced to be good and all to be saved.  No pain.

God the Father replied:  "No pain, no gain."

Really? I guess I side with the bad guy 10 out of ten times, seeing my friends and family suffering needlessly just so He enforce "no pain no gain rule" where's logic in that? A sentient being creates a device something so cruel?  If there was a symbolic War against this plan I guarantee you that I fought valiantly on the side of Satan to prevent humans having pain.:vava:

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18 hours ago, USU78 said:

Viruses don't have much of a life, but life they are.  They "look after themselves," as Hagrid would say.  They have as much right here as we do, though I have no qualms about killing 'em, either with my inborn defense system or by other methods devised by our collective genius.

As for cancer:  what causes it?  What causes the body to predate itself?  I lived in auto-immune dysfunction land for over 20 years, caring for a spouse-patient.  I know she despised herself.  I won't share why.  Just know that, what I've learned about cancer and other auto-immune horrors is that there tends certain connections between what is attacked and what's going on inside the heart and soul of the patient.  If you hate yourself, hate your body, that inevitably leads to physical problems.

My sun spots on my face will probably develop into melanoma some day.  It was my choice to be a sunworshipper in my youth, going shirtless as often as I could each summer.  There I'd be, hoeing the cantelopes, parting the vines, harvesting the fruit, shirtless in 100+ degree sunshine.  Whose fault will those melanomas be?

I knew a woman well, a younger sister.  Both sisters had a genetic predisposition to breast cancer.  Older sister, in a solid marriage, beat the beast and is still living 30 years later.  Younger sister, who got no support, emotional sustenance, or love in her decidedly unhappy marriage to a nasty narcissist, succumbed.  In my heart I'm convinced nasty no-support, no-sustenance, no-love boy killed her with his abuse, neglect, and profound betrayal.

Who put younger sister on her Via Dolorosa?  Was it the genetic defect that's nobody's fault, that's simply one of those possible outcomes when the proverbial cup gets dipped into the genetic pond at conception?  Of course not.  In this day and age women endure, recover, and live long and happily even when the bug bites them.  It was the one who broke her heart put her there, wasn't it?

I don't have all the answers, but I am certain of this:  a G-d Who weeps at the pain of even His most unruly and disobedient children is not the moral monster you imply.

Interesting.....I went to Dermatologist other day for some spots on my face...they were benign luckily....Your stories sound eerily similar.....I can only commend your faith if it helps you to reason with life.  

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7 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Really? I guess I side with the bad guy 10 out of ten times, seeing my friends and family suffering needlessly just so He enforce "no pain no gain rule" where's logic in that? A sentient being creates a device something so cruel?  If there was a symbolic War against this plan I guarantee you that I fought valiantly on the side of Satan to prevent humans having pain.:vava:

Part of the problem is that nature in and of itself is "cruel."  God does us no favors if he lies to us and tells us everything is going to be easy.  He didn't invent the universe (unless you adhere to the normative Judeo-Christian-Muslim theology in which God is the author of everything, and is wholly responsible for evil).  He has to contend with the real, natural universe, as do we all.  That means dealing as best we can with difficulties and pain.  All that aside from the absolutely correct notion that everything has its opposite.  That's how nature works.  You may want to finesse it so that you and others need never suffer, but that merely ignores reality -- which will later come a cropper.

Young Lord Siddharta was led to believe that nature was always friendly and gentle.  He was never allowed to see death or suffering.  His father made sure that he lived in a bubble of privilege and innocence.  He met only smiles, until one day reality hit him full force, and he had to come to terms with it.  He could have gone into a state of denial, which many people do, but that solves nothing.  Instead he contemplated the problem for years, and meditated deeply on it.  He eventually came to sit under the Bodhi Tree in meditation, and Mara came to tempt him.  He dismissed Mara as an illusion, and he came to realize the true nature of reality, and then provided a detailed exposition on how to deal effectively with that reality -- including pain and sorrow.  He then became the Enlightened One, The Buddha.

What is your solution?

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On 2/13/2018 at 1:48 PM, Atheist Mormon said:

How could a God design such horrible viruses & cancer cells to cause so much pain though?

 

On 2/13/2018 at 2:16 PM, CV75 said:

Does He design them, or is He one of the opposing principles? I think He is the latter. 

God cannot claim the level of power He possesses and then claim He is not responsible for things happening by claiming it is an opposing principle. If we accepted cosmic dualism where God and the Devil were equal opposites that logic would make sense. I think I would find that creed agreeable and explanatory. The cliched line about great power coming with great responsibility changes with God that with infinite power comes infinite responsibility.

God can heal the sick. We accept that. He often does not. Why not? Does healing the sick cost God anything? No. Not time or power or wealth or whatever. Yet God does not always act. The difference between God allowing and causing suffering has little distinction. To put it in perspective if your child's life was in danger and I could have saved the child with no risk to myself and there was no fear or other condition preventing me from acting and I chose not to intervene and your child died I think you would quite rightly consider me a monster.

I think the answer is found elsewhere.

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Part of the problem is that nature in and of itself is "cruel."  God does us no favors if he lies to us and tells us everything is going to be easy.  He didn't invent the universe (unless you adhere to the normative Judeo-Christian-Muslim theology in which God is the author of everything, and is wholly responsible for evil).  He has to contend with the real, natural universe, as do we all.  That means dealing as best we can with difficulties and pain.  All that aside from the absolutely correct notion that everything has its opposite.  That's how nature works.  You may want to finesse it so that you and others need never suffer, but that merely ignores reality -- which will later come a cropper.

I would have a hard time putting any great faith in such a God. If the universe can thwart God's wishes I might side with God but his promises would be less than sure.

18 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Well, I know that Satan chickened out.  That's why he wanted everyone forced to be good and all to be saved.  No pain.

God the Father replied:  "No pain, no gain."

God is a fitness coach now?

9 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Really? I guess I side with the bad guy 10 out of ten times, seeing my friends and family suffering needlessly just so He enforce "no pain no gain rule" where's logic in that? A sentient being creates a device something so cruel?  If there was a symbolic War against this plan I guarantee you that I fought valiantly on the side of Satan to prevent humans having pain.:vava:

Actually all the evidence points to you being on the opposite side. Unless you are a disembodied unclean spirit that is on the internet in which case I am about to attempt my first digital exorcism.

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