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High profile story of abuse between a Mormon couple

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On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 10:12 PM, Stargazer said:

OK, fine. But I don't think it is all about me. I think it is all about the subject of the conversation.

Sorry!

Oh, I thought she was addressing that to me. LOL!

Calm, PLEASE quote who you are responding to. :)

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9 hours ago, juliann said:

:lol:  We could make a bingo game for responses like this. Or a drinking game.....

Thank you for checking in, NotAllMan!

 

I could just as well check in with NotAllWoman.  If she had a comic strip, at least.

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36 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

Oh, I thought she was addressing that to me. LOL!

Calm, PLEASE quote who you are responding to. :)

She may have been addressing you. I just chimed in because I already got hit in the face with the "Stop thinking it's all about you" once in this thread, and I was just assuming it was directed at me one more time.

But I think Calm was avoiding quoting anyone, because she just wanted to say something and not get argued with over it.  Which is why I apologized.  It wouldn't be the first time that I interpreted a woman's statement as a desire to get a response, when all she wanted was to be listened to. And I'm sure it won't be the last.

So, let me just say something in general to the air, just so you all understand something.  It is this: when you throw blame out there for all male-kind, such as refusing to acknowledge that "intimate partner violence" is something that occurs without regard to sex, and that both sexes can be and are abusers, and insist that it is just a man attacks woman thing, then it IS about me, because I'm a man.  When a man remarks on the driving abilities of all women by gritting his teeth and uttering the canard "woman drivers!" that's sexist.  When a woman grits her teeth and utters "male violence!" that's sexist as well.  Because all men and all women can be bad drivers; and all men and all women can be abusers.  The problem is VIOLENCE, not the SEX of the perpetrator.  

And I think I shall now bow out of this "conversation".  Thanks for listening.  Or not, as the case may be.

Edited by Stargazer

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5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

She may have been addressing you. I just chimed in because I already got hit in the face with the "Stop thinking it's all about you" once in this thread, and I was just assuming it was directed at me one more time.

But I think Calm was avoiding quoting anyone, because she just wanted to say something and not get argued with over it.  Which is why I apologized.  It wouldn't be the first time that I interpreted a woman's statement as a desire to get a response, when all she wanted was to be listened to. And I'm sure it won't be the last.

So, let me just say something in general to the air, just so you all understand something.  It is this: when you throw blame out there for all male-kind, such as refusing to acknowledge that "intimate partner violence" is something that occurs without regard to sex, and that both sexes can be and are abusers, and insist that it is just a man attacks woman thing, then it IS about me, because I'm a man.  When a man remarks on the driving abilities of all women by gritting his teeth and uttering the canard "woman drivers!" that's sexist.  When a woman grits her teeth and utters "male violence!" that's sexist as well.  Because all men and all women can be bad drivers; and all men and all women can be abusers.  The problem is VIOLENCE, not the SEX of the perpetrator.  

And I think I shall now bow out of this "conversation".  Thanks for listening.  Or not, as the case may be.

“But I think Calm was avoiding quoting anyone, because she just wanted to say something and not get argued with over it.  Which is why I apologized.”

That’s the impression I have had as to why she wasn’t quoting me here. (Say. A female not treating a male fairly, ironic for this thread :) ).You’re a good man for apologizing to her.  

“When a man remarks on the driving abilities of all women by gritting his teeth and uttering the canard "woman drivers!" that's sexist.”

Perhaps but I was once riding in the car with my oldest daughter driving and that was one of the terrifying five minutes of my life. :)

“When a woman grits her teeth and utters "male violence!" that's sexist as well.  Because all men and all women can be bad drivers; and all men and all women can be abusers.  The problem is VIOLENCE, not the SEX of the perpetrator.  “

I was floored when Smac made a thread honoring men but that thread quickly turned into a “let’s honor everyone” as well as “men commit thevworse acts of evil as well” thread. That both saddened and got me upset. Well, that plus Smac seemed to have left that thread entirely. I’m sure it was for good reason but boy I sure wanted him to say at least something. Especially if I misread the purpose of that thread. But I think that and this thread reflects the greater society we are living in. That women are to never be left out of praise but men can be the sole point of attack. It’s a real life Star Wars Episode VIII in other words. :)

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6 hours ago, Darren10 said:

 

I was floored when Smac made a thread honoring men but that thread quickly turned into a “let’s honor everyone” as well as “men commit thevworse acts of evil as well” thread. That both saddened and got me upset. Well, that plus Smac seemed to have left that thread entirely. I’m sure it was for good reason but boy I sure wanted him to say at least something. Especially if I misread the purpose of that thread. But I think that and this thread reflects the greater society we are living in. That women are to never be left out of praise but men can be the sole point of attack. It’s a real life Star Wars Episode VIII in other words. :)

Yeah, cause men are just never honored in Mormon culture :rolleyes:  

Seriously, this is just pathetic. It is not enough to have the lion's share of money, jobs, and prestige compared to women. They also must be honored when women try to address systemic abuse.  Nor can a thread ever, ever, ever, be devoted to discussing the imbalances without hijacking it to talk about how put upon men are. 

Tiresome. 

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7 hours ago, juliann said:

Seriously, this is just pathetic. It is not enough to have the lion's share of money, jobs, and prestige compared to women. They also must be honored when women try to address systemic abuse.  Nor can a thread ever, ever, ever, be devoted to discussing the imbalances without hijacking it to talk about how put upon men are. 

Tiresome. 

 if the proplem was significantly unitlateral I suppose a one side approach might help things. As the situation is not nearly as (not even really close) one sided where, efforts to addrress side of things will in the long term help but just confuse things.

Bishops should be trained with the reality of things and know they have immediate access to expets. Some are also gifted with spiritual talente an skills to use them.

 

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1 hour ago, Nofear said:

 if the proplem was significantly unitlateral I suppose a one side approach might help things. As the situation is not nearly as (not even really close) one sided where, efforts to addrress side of things will in the long term help but just confuse things.

However, male-female and female-male abuse and violence typically involve different dynamics with more frequent physical violence by women, but with higher levels of violence by men resulting in more actual injuries and deaths:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3876290/

One study of teens in the report states that girls saw violence against them as assualts while a significant portion of boys laughed off or ignored violence.  It also observed the possibility much of the violence done by girls was to defend against sexual aggression.  If this dynamic continues in adulthood, IPV stats need to differentiate self defense violence from physical aggression violence.

Edited by Calm

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10 hours ago, juliann said:

Yeah, cause men are just never honored in Mormon culture :rolleyes:  

Seriously, this is just pathetic. It is not enough to have the lion's share of money, jobs, and prestige compared to women. They also must be honored when women try to address systemic abuse.  Nor can a thread ever, ever, ever, be devoted to discussing the imbalances without hijacking it to talk about how put upon men are. 

Tiresome. 

Agreed. This is just pathetic. Can’t mention one good thing about men alone without a rebuttal about how low they are. Women are remarkable. Men are remarkable. Women alone are remarkable. Men alone are remarkable. 

Leave it at that. 

In case you can’t, how much money did you yourself make last year?

Edited by Darren10
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8 hours ago, Calm said:

However, male-female and female-male abuse and violence typically involve different dynamics with more frequent physical violence by women, but with higher levels of violence by men resulting in more actual injuries and deaths:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3876290/

One study of teens in the report states that girls saw violence against them as assualts while a significant portion of boys laughed off or ignored violence.  It also observed the possibility much of the violence done by girls was to defend against sexual aggression.  If this dynamic continues in adulthood, IPV stats need to differentiate self defense violence from physical aggression violence.

That was one of the things found in the studies summaries I cited. Males caused injury more than females. As a consequence society has a lot of social mores against a man hitting a women (rightly so). This has very probably led to the ratio of non-reciprocated violence. We almost never tell a women it's not ok to hit a man (sometimes such is even celebrated (I've posted anecdotal videos of such on this board before)). The physical imbalance also very likely gives rise to the higher rates of use of relational aggression by women -- not that such is anywhere near equivalent, but neither should it be ignored when a couple is having problems.

Still, I will stand by my opinion that the rates of intimate partner violence are not nearly so gender imbalanced as to justify a fully one-sided approach to recognition and social pressures to stop the violence. My suspicion is that such an approach (which is the approach we/society are currently using) won't be nearly as efficacious as it could otherwise be. Inasmuch as bishops are exposed to these horrible scenarios, I think they should be aware of the possibilities that it isn't just what society often tells us (e.g. male always to blame and is the aggressor).

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2 hours ago, Nofear said:

Still, I will stand by my opinion that the rates of intimate partner violence are not nearly so gender imbalanced as to justify a fully one-sided approach to recognition and social pressures to stop the violence. My suspicion is that such an approach (which is the approach we/society are currently using) won't be nearly as efficacious as it could otherwise be. Inasmuch as bishops are exposed to these horrible scenarios, I think they should be aware of the possibilities that it isn't just what society often tells us (e.g. male always to blame and is the aggressor).

I am not suggesting a one sided approach (and if anyone thinks that has been suggested, I think they are misreading the posts that are responding directly to this latest male abusing female violence and not to violence in general).  I am suggesting they need to be approached differently because they share some similarities, but enough differences the remedies will be also need to be different in many ways, especially since reactions may be fundamentally different as well.

If males' conditioned reaction to violence is too be dismissive of it much of the time (see teen behaviour mention above), this needs to be addressed rather than assuming if they only know about the violence they will take it seriously.  If women generally have a belief that violence against men is acceptable due to our very confused culture, this needs to be determined and addressed.

There is also a huge need due to the difference levels of violence for bishops to be initially more proactive in pushing for safety measures when violence is male on female because of the higher rate of injury and death.  Otoh, they may need to be more forceful in getting men not to ignore what is going on in their homes, whatever type of violence it is and this will then help with figuring out what longterm approach is needed, including effective nonviolent ways to respond to female violence to avoid escalation or passive nonresponse where nothing is done to change things.

Edited by Calm
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I can largely agree. I suppose it is past time for thread to get back to how an adulterous Mormon gravely mistreated his wives.

 

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11 hours ago, Darren10 said:

Agreed. This is just pathetic. Can’t mention one good thing about men alone without a rebuttal about how low they are. Women are remarkable. Men are remarkable. Women alone are remarkable. Men alone are remarkable. 

Leave it at that. 

 

That only works when you aren't in a thread topic about women. I've noticed how you guys like to ignore that, like. ALL. THE. TIME.  In simpler terms, you are derailing. Nonstop. Start your own threads about how mistreated men are and then feel free to complain if your topic is derailed.

Quote

In case you can’t, how much money did you yourself make last year?

I rest my case. 

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1 hour ago, juliann said:

That only works when you aren't in a thread topic about women. I've noticed how you guys like to ignore that, like. ALL. THE. TIME.  In simpler terms, you are derailing. Nonstop. Start your own threads about how mistreated men are and then feel free to complain if your topic is derailed.

I rest my case. 

ZERO $$$? Including any form of income? I'd like to continue that line according to your response.

"That only works when you aren't in a thread topic about women." - By all means, continue the dialogue, but, is it possible for you to say glowingly good things about men alone? How great hey are? How much good they contribute to society? That was my point as I was continuing a sub thread regarding men bashing. Of course this tread is about women so logically that is the focus.

"ALL. THE. TIME.  In simpler terms, you are derailing. Nonstop. Start your own threads about how mistreated men are and then feel free to complain if your topic is derailed."

I'm lost. Not hard to do with me but...I'm lost.

 

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5 hours ago, juliann said:

That only works when you aren't in a thread topic about women. I've noticed how you guys like to ignore that, like. ALL. THE. TIME.  In simpler terms, you are derailing. Nonstop. Start your own threads about how mistreated men are and then feel free to complain if your topic is derailed.

Admittedly, it started when I let myself get distracted when a statistic (about men) was (in good faith) cited that seemed questionable. The facts took me down a rabbit hole a bit as they defied some of my learning. My bad. Anyway, I stop.

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1 hour ago, Nofear said:

Admittedly, it started when I let myself get distracted when a statistic (about men) was (in good faith) cited that seemed questionable. The facts took me down a rabbit hole a bit as they defied some of my learning. My bad. Anyway, I stop.

Nah, you haven't been around enough to see the big picture when women try to discuss women's topics here. 

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On 2/15/2018 at 2:51 AM, Stargazer said:

She may have been addressing you. I just chimed in because I already got hit in the face with the "Stop thinking it's all about you" once in this thread, and I was just assuming it was directed at me one more time.

But I think Calm was avoiding quoting anyone, because she just wanted to say something and not get argued with over it.  Which is why I apologized.  It wouldn't be the first time that I interpreted a woman's statement as a desire to get a response, when all she wanted was to be listened to. And I'm sure it won't be the last.

So, let me just say something in general to the air, just so you all understand something.  It is this: when you throw blame out there for all male-kind, such as refusing to acknowledge that "intimate partner violence" is something that occurs without regard to sex, and that both sexes can be and are abusers, and insist that it is just a man attacks woman thing, then it IS about me, because I'm a man.  When a man remarks on the driving abilities of all women by gritting his teeth and uttering the canard "woman drivers!" that's sexist.  When a woman grits her teeth and utters "male violence!" that's sexist as well.  Because all men and all women can be bad drivers; and all men and all women can be abusers.  The problem is VIOLENCE, not the SEX of the perpetrator.  

And I think I shall now bow out of this "conversation".  Thanks for listening.  Or not, as the case may be.

Do not be too hasty, I think your comment about female drivers has precedent:

 

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9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Do not be too hasty, I think your comment about female drivers has precedent:

 

Oh, that's funny all right!  I like this one, a little more modern:

 

And just in case any oversensitive types are offended, this is a PARODY (made in 2013) in relation to the former Saudi laws against woman drivers.  The Saudi government will start issuing driving licenses to women starting in June 2018.

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I'm a little confused why we are putting videos making fun of women driving (even if a parody) in this thread? What is the relevance?

 

Edited by Rain
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2 hours ago, Rain said:

I'm a little confused why we are putting videos making fun of women driving (even if a parody) in this thread? What is the relevance?

 

Stargazer mentioned the stereotype in a post.

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