High profile story of abuse between a Mormon couple

[bsjkki 2,288]

This story is a bit tabloid but it is "in the news." This story also touches on a few other topics that have been discussed on this board before. This quote discusses, the limitations of Bishops when dealing with abuse victims. The fact both participants are Mormon is highlighted.

‘It was scary but it wasn’t like it was life-threatening. For years, I would go to Mormon bishops and I would try to find the words to explain what was going on but I was at a loss beyond the explanation that he got physical with me.’

The violence escalated to where Porter was choking his wife.

‘It was not hard enough for me to pass out but it was scary, humiliating and dehumanizing,’ she said.

‘It wasn’t until I went to a secular counsellor at my work place one summer and told him what was going on that he was the first person, and not a male religious leader, who told me that what was happening was not okay.’

I hope this man is fired. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5362823/Ex-wife-WH-aide-dating-Hope-Hicks-says-choked-her.html The above quote was from the first wife and second wife also relates her own story of abuse. She also saw her Bishop but does not elaborate on what he said or if he was helpful. 

'Fairly soon after New Year in 2010, I started seeing a therapist and requested that Rob see a therapist because I was so distressed about his anger,' she revealed.

'I also had met with a bishop in the Mormon Church about his anger. It came to a head and in February or March 2010. I was so worn down and exhausted by the anger that I requested we have a separation."

Edited February 7, 2018 by bsjkki

[Robert F. Smith 14,339]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

This story is a bit tabloid but it is "in the news." This story also touches on a few other topics that have been discussed on this board before. This quote discusses, the limitations of Bishops when dealing with abuse victims. The fact both participants are Mormon is highlighted.

‘It was scary but it wasn’t like it was life-threatening. For years, I would go to Mormon bishops and I would try to find the words to explain what was going on but I was at a loss beyond the explanation that he got physical with me.’

The violence escalated to where Porter was choking his wife.

‘It was not hard enough for me to pass out but it was scary, humiliating and dehumanizing,’ she said.

‘It wasn’t until I went to a secular counsellor at my work place one summer and told him what was going on that he was the first person, and not a male religious leader, who told me that what was happening was not okay.’

I hope this man is fired. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5362823/Ex-wife-WH-aide-dating-Hope-Hicks-says-choked-her.html The above quote was from the first wife and second wife also relates her own story of abuse. She also saw her Bishop but does not elaborate on what he said or if he was helpful. 

'Fairly soon after New Year in 2010, I started seeing a therapist and requested that Rob see a therapist because I was so distressed about his anger,' she revealed.

'I also had met with a bishop in the Mormon Church about his anger. It came to a head and in February or March 2010. I was so worn down and exhausted by the anger that I requested we have a separation."

This sort of thing is further complicated by the outward behavior of many abusers, who seem to everyone else to be such nice guys -- when in fact they are quite violent toward the wife.  Indeed, they may even select a wife who will be likely to go along with such secret conduct.  It is very helpful for parents to signal to young girls and young women that is is O.K. to differ with them and other authority figures, and to develop their own preferences and personality.  Being completely submissive and subservient is not necessarily a good trait for anyone.  Women and girls are a lot more fun and interesting if they are sassy now and then (why do I think of  Bogey and Bacall?).

[bsjkki 2,288]

He resigned

[Duncan 5,332]

6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

This sort of thing is further complicated by the outward behavior of many abusers, who seem to everyone else to be such nice guys -- when in fact they are quite violent toward the wife.  Indeed, they may even select a wife who will be likely to go along with such secret conduct.  It is very helpful for parents to signal to young girls and young women that is is O.K. to differ with them and other authority figures, and to develop their own preferences and personality.  Being completely submissive and subservient is not necessarily a good trait for anyone.  Women and girls are a lot more fun and interesting if they are sassy now and then (why do I think of  Bogey and Bacall?).

I can attest to this 10000000000000000000000000%, I know guys, LDS or not, like this. All peaches and cream on the outside and everything is fine but at home or wherever, it's like a new person and it's a power trip for them, they crave this hold on them that they can manipulate at will. it's a real life Jekyll and Hyde scenario. I had a Bishop like that, Branch President, a YM Pres. co worker, they tell you it's their wife's fault, they deserved it, she made me do it, they had it coming blah blah blah, i've heard it, seen it. With the ex Bishop some of his kids got out from under him and to him they are dead, they are gone from the family. it's a sick thing to see.  How the Rob Porter's of the world are allowed membership still is beyond me 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Duncan

[juliann 9,724]

Women should not be going to bishops to report criminal behavior. That is the first thing we need to get rid of.

[Duncan 5,332]

11 minutes ago, juliann said:

Women should not be going to bishops to report criminal behavior. That is the first thing we need to get rid of.

I couldn't agree more!

[The Nehor 19,315]

19 minutes ago, juliann said:

Women should not be going to bishops to report criminal behavior. That is the first thing we need to get rid of.

Yeah, sadly, I do not think it will change soon. Given the choice between confiding the events to someone you trust or a police officer who you do not know at all many will choose the former. Even amongst those who do go to the police many do not pursue legal action.

[The Nehor 19,315]

36 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I can attest to this 10000000000000000000000000%, I know guys, LDS or not, like this. All peaches and cream on the outside and everything is fine but at home or wherever, it's like a new person and it's a power trip for them, they crave this hold on them that they can manipulate at will. it's a real life Jekyll and Hyde scenario. I had a Bishop like that, Branch President, a YM Pres. co worker, they tell you it's their wife's fault, they deserved it, she made me do it, they had it coming blah blah blah, i've heard it, seen it. With the ex Bishop some of his kids got out from under him and to him they are dead, they are gone from the family. it's a sick thing to see.  How the Rob Porter's of the world are allowed membership still is beyond me 

I have seen this too. It is horrifying.

[Robert F. Smith 14,339]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

I can attest to this 10000000000000000000000000%, I know guys, LDS or not, like this. All peaches and cream on the outside and everything is fine but at home or wherever, it's like a new person and it's a power trip for them, they crave this hold on them that they can manipulate at will. it's a real life Jekyll and Hyde scenario. I had a Bishop like that, Branch President, a YM Pres. co worker, they tell you it's their wife's fault, they deserved it, she made me do it, they had it coming blah blah blah, i've heard it, seen it. With the ex Bishop some of his kids got out from under him and to him they are dead, they are gone from the family. it's a sick thing to see.  How the Rob Porter's of the world are allowed membership still is beyond me 

We're a Church full of sinners trying to repent and improve, so we need to be in the pews, and we need to hear the Gospel preached regularly.  Otherwise there isn't much hope.  To the people Rob Porter worked for and his fellow workers, he was a great guy.  I hope that Porter will now get rid of the charade and start the sincere road back to the Lord -- by sitting down and confessing to his stake president and high council.  I'm glad the two wives finally said something publicly.  That will help bring closure to them as well.

[Duncan 5,332]

6 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

We're a Church full of sinners trying to repent and improve, so we need to be in the pews, and we need to hear the Gospel preached regularly.  Otherwise there isn't much hope.  To the people Rob Porter worked for and his fellow workers, he was a great guy.  I hope that Porter will now get rid of the charade and start the sincere road back to the Lord -- by sitting down and confessing to his stake president and high council.  I'm glad the two wives finally said something publicly.  That will help bring closure to them as well.

I hope so but with some of these guys their ego is so inflated to them it's always someone else's fault and they don't see what they did as anything wrong. But your right though

[Calm 28,908]

https://bycommonconsent.com/2018/02/07/we-must-do-better-on-violence-against-women/

Quote

 

Beginning to grasp how bad it is, the woman turns to the first source she can think of: the source she is supposed to trust, the source she has been told to consult, the source she thinks might be able to offer an independent assessment and maybe refer her to counseling – her Bishop.  After all, if she’s going to defy the Priesthood Leadership in her home, i.e. her husband, she had better seek the permission of the next Priesthood Leader in her life.

Many Bishops handle this moment with grace.  They label the husband’s behavior as unrighteous dominion, as unacceptable, as abusive, as spiritually destructive.  They refer the woman to a hotline or a shelter or a therapist or a lawyer.  God Bless those Bishops.

But many, many, many Bishops do not.  They’re not adequately trained to handle it.  Bless their serviceful hearts, but they have no experience in mental health, in domestic violence, in counseling.  Hopefully, the Bishops’ own marriages are happy – but that means they have absolutely no frame of reference for toxic relationships.  And the Handbook flat-out tells Bishops that they are never supposed to advocate for divorce.  And so the Bishops parrot all of their religiously-driven, well-meaning, culturally-mired, utterly-destructive instincts.

• “I know Brother [Husband].  He’s a good man and a successful businessman and great contributor to our ward.  This must be some sort of misunderstanding.  Are you sure you’re not overreacting?”                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
•  “I encourage you to attend the temple more often as a family, and to seek healing together.  I know God brought you together.  Divorce is never in God’s will.  Through God all things are possible.”                                                                                                                                                                                                      
•  “I’ve been in this position for a long time, and I’ve never yet seen a situation where there isn’t enough blame to go around on both sides.”                                                                                                                                                                                                   
•  “Maybe Brother [Husband] feels threatened by all the time and attention you spend with your kids [or siblings, or book club, or friends, or coworkers].  Have you considered cutting back on that, and dedicating more time and attention to him and your home responsibilities?”                                                                                                                                                                                                       
• “This may seem silly, I know, but a lot of men express quiet frustration to me that despite all of their stressful work and all they do for their family, their wives don’t appreciate them.  Have you considered losing weight, or having sex with your husband more often?  That has an incredible healing and bonding power.”                                                                                                                                                                          
• “Have you stopped and considered what you may be doing to trigger your husband’s behavior?”

And in that moment, women crumple.  A Priesthood Leader just spiritually advised her to try harder, and to keep blaming herself.  He echoed and reinforced every single doubt she had been telling herself for years.  When a Priesthood Leader has told her she’s overreacting, the last thing she’s going to do is call the police.

Maybe she eventually finds the strength to leave anyway.  But overcoming all of the general psychological difficulty in breaking off a relationship, plus the hurdles of dissolving a temple marriage, plus ignoring official Priesthood and perceived Apostolic advice – it’s nothing short of an Olympic feat.

 

Quote

 

But the point here is that first reaction.  The first reaction that devout Mormon women with photos, with witnesses, with police and FBI reports – well, they just can’t be believed.

Stop it.  Now.  

Condemn it from the pulpit.  Describe abuse in detail.  Doctrinally enshrine it as unrighteous dominion.  Offer lessons in Relief Society and Young Women.  Proclaim from the Temple-tops that God’s plan of happiness does not require marital martyrdom and misery.   Explain that divorce often is the best solution.  Respect restraining orders.  Provide resources and Church welfare support and everything you can to help women get out.  

And when a woman confides in you?  Believe her.

 

 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Calm

[bsjkki 2,288]

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

https://bycommonconsent.com/2018/02/07/we-must-do-better-on-violence-against-women/

 

Thanks for sharing...that was excellent and very true. 

[Robert F. Smith 14,339]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

I hope so but with some of these guys their ego is so inflated to them it's always someone else's fault and they don't see what they did as anything wrong. But your right though

I met one of those guys in Federal Prison when we had an annual July 24th dinner for the Mormon prisoners.  He was a lawyer who never came to LDS services at the prison on Sundays, and he was very bitter.

[Duncan 5,332]

16 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I met one of those guys in Federal Prison when we had an annual July 24th dinner for the Mormon prisoners.  He was a lawyer who never came to LDS services at the prison on Sundays, and he was very bitter.

I can recommend a few more cellmates for him

[Darren10 1,303]

6 hours ago, juliann said:

Women should not be going to bishops to report criminal behavior. That is the first thing we need to get rid of.

If I understand correctly, there are certain things a Bishop *must* report to the authorities. But, you are correct. Criminal behavior should be reported to the law, not a bishop.

[Darren10 1,303]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

https://bycommonconsent.com/2018/02/07/we-must-do-better-on-violence-against-women/

 

"After all, if she’s going to defy the Priesthood Leadership in her home, i.e. her husband, she had better seek the permission of the next Priesthood Leader in her life."

What the **** is he talking about?

"When a Priesthood Leader has told her she’s overreacting, the last thing she’s going to do is call the police."

Why not? I mean, is there really a Mormon culture out there who will not call the police because their priesthood leader told her she was overreacting?

I must be isolated from Mormonism in general but I cannot, for the life of me, imagine any bishop I have ever had saying any such thing to blame the woman or make her self-doubt in an abusive situation. Niki and I We had neighbors in our first apartment complex who were LDS and the made would make his wife get up early with him just because she's his wife and when she did not because she simply wanted to sleep n longer he'd get angry and break her things. He broke her things a lot from my understanding. That wife told my wife Niki that my father who was bishop at that time in our ward flat out told the man that he needs to stop his behavior and that he is not being a worthy priesthood holder. They moved out shortly after as he was military and restationed elsewhere. I never asked my father directly about the situation as the matter was between him and that couple and the man never showed resentment to me for my father's frankness but according to what I was told from Niki he was a bit upset. Even though I did not get my father's input on the matter I never sensed he was constrained by the LDS handbook or anything else by the Church.

In another case, a lady whose family I home taught called me and began to speak about her husband's abuse towards her. I asked a few questions and concluded that it was never physical but mental and verbal.  If it was physical I would have told her ASAP to call the authorities right away. As she was on the phone she panicked as her husband walked in. She freaked out that he was going to discover her on the phone and get very upset. I have to be frank and say that the the whole time on the phone I honestly did not know how authentic what she was telling me was. I *strongly* disagree with, "And when a woman confides in you?  Believe her. ". I knew first hand that this lady was a bit crazy herself and while I never had a "good vibe' on their marriage, there was no indication of physical abuse. (I know that is no guarantee but I think it very prudent that reactions from third parties need to be based on that to make the correct decision.) So while I did not believe her I trusted what she told me and replied based on that trust. During her moment of freakout I simply told her clearly, and more than once, that if her husband does anything to her that is dangerous, especially, physically, to call the police immediately. To get out of any immediate dangerous situation and call the police. I also told her that if she had time afterwards, she can call me and I would got immediately to her house. I did not hear back from her and even called in later to see how they were doing. I also contacted the bishop promptly (this was the bishop before my father got that mantle) and without hesitation he praised me on advising her to call the police if her husband abused her physically. He told me point blank that that was the correct thing to do.  

ALL my bishops would have done the same. I cannot phathom any bishop I personally knew saying or doing otherwise. Not that there are no bad bishops as I plan to divulge in another post on this thread but your post makes it seem like there is a very rampant element in the LDS Church dangerous to women. And it blames that problem on the priesthood and its structure. I strongly beg to differ.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Darren10

[Bernard Gui 6,002]

As a bishop, I helped a sister flee and hide from her abusive husband. He called me and told me he knew where my family lived.

[Darren10 1,303]

14 hours ago, bsjkki said:

This story is a bit tabloid but it is "in the news." This story also touches on a few other topics that have been discussed on this board before. This quote discusses, the limitations of Bishops when dealing with abuse victims. The fact both participants are Mormon is highlighted.

‘It was scary but it wasn’t like it was life-threatening. For years, I would go to Mormon bishops and I would try to find the words to explain what was going on but I was at a loss beyond the explanation that he got physical with me.’

The violence escalated to where Porter was choking his wife.

‘It was not hard enough for me to pass out but it was scary, humiliating and dehumanizing,’ she said.

‘It wasn’t until I went to a secular counsellor at my work place one summer and told him what was going on that he was the first person, and not a male religious leader, who told me that what was happening was not okay.’

I hope this man is fired. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5362823/Ex-wife-WH-aide-dating-Hope-Hicks-says-choked-her.html The above quote was from the first wife and second wife also relates her own story of abuse. She also saw her Bishop but does not elaborate on what he said or if he was helpful. 

'Fairly soon after New Year in 2010, I started seeing a therapist and requested that Rob see a therapist because I was so distressed about his anger,' she revealed.

'I also had met with a bishop in the Mormon Church about his anger. It came to a head and in February or March 2010. I was so worn down and exhausted by the anger that I requested we have a separation."

My wife Niki had a best friend in high school who has maintained contact with her throughout the years revealed something that shook my wife to the core. My wife's friend's father was their bishop for a few years. My wife loved him. Very kind to her and everyone else. Niki's friend told her about how her mother and father were very abusive in the home. One time in particular her father was working in her closet and she asked to go to her friend's house. The father said sure. She called her friend but realized they couldn't arrange getting together that day. She told her father that and said she'll just go and take a nap. He father suddenly lunged at her, slammed her up against the wall and pressed his elbow upon her throat, choking her. He spoke to snarled at her, f-bombs and all, how insensitive she was to take a nap instead of using her time to help him with her closet. Niki was dumbfounded. Niki asked if he was like that and her friend said yes. The mother always blamed her (and the siblings) for making him upset. The mother was also abusive. Except for the choking incident Niki knows of no other physically abusive situation which occurred.

This may come as a bit of a shock but I'm actually going to speak a bit to their defense. Both parents of Niki's friends grew up in very abusive homes, worse then they were to her own kids. The father would be locked in a broken car sometimes for a couple of days, without food as punishment. his brother too. They all got severe beatings for various reasons. Niki's friend's mother was from the same situation. I do not know any details like the father and his brother being locked in a car but she was abused, physically, verbally, emotionally. The mom and dad met when they were young and got married. They later came across the LDS missionaries, accepted the discussions and joined the Church. In their eyes they were being good parents as they were not as bad as their wen parents. My impression in listening to Niki tell me their back stories which Niki's friend related to her left me the impression that their point of view was different than what "normal" points of view would be. By "normal" I mean it in a way more or less synonymous as "correctly". I am not at all excusing their behavior. I condemn it thoroughly but I do empathize with them and hope and pray they continue to become better people. Niki's friend took the very hard choice and decided to no longer have physical contact with her parents. The parents were, of course, furious when she decided to do that but that's precisely what Niki and I advocated for her to do. She maintains contact with them but not physical contact. Niki's friend's husband is not at al abusive and so she's improved her life significantly by these choices to not have physical contact with her parents and to marry a non abusive man.

[Darren10 1,303]

10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

As a bishop, I helped a sister flee and hide from her abusive husband. He called me and told me he knew where my family lived.

Excellent job brother. Did he come to your vampire cove?

Edited to ad: Or is it coven? It's been a while since I watched Twilight. (Dumb movies overall except the last two but I'm a sucker for superpowered "humans")

Edited February 8, 2018 by Darren10

[Darren10 1,303]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

We're a Church full of sinners trying to repent and improve, so we need to be in the pews, and we need to hear the Gospel preached regularly.  Otherwise there isn't much hope.  To the people Rob Porter worked for and his fellow workers, he was a great guy.  I hope that Porter will now get rid of the charade and start the sincere road back to the Lord -- by sitting down and confessing to his stake president and high council.  I'm glad the two wives finally said something publicly.  That will help bring closure to them as well.

VERY well said.

[Robert F. Smith 14,339]

1 hour ago, Darren10 said:

If I understand correctly, there are certain things a Bishop *must* report to the authorities. But, you are correct. Criminal behavior should be reported to the law, not a bishop.

Why not both?  Law enforcement first, then (with police report in hand) the bishop.  That gives him something concrete to work on, and it forces his hand (in case he is too timid).

[Metis_LDS 30]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

As a bishop, I helped a sister flee and hide from her abusive husband. He called me and told me he knew where my family lived.

I salute you Bishop, many years ago in Canada I was not the leader of the church unit but a leader. When a Sister would mention things were getting out of hand we would go talk to the husband,  most men were not afraid to go on such a duty as the culture was that these men were only good at violence when done to a lady or children. That was another age, violence and threats seem to have increased when people do not get their way.

A visit was good to make things more stable for awhile, there was for the most part long term changes that needed to be made. It was always difficult for everyone who played a role.

 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Metis_LDS
added material

[Darren10 1,303]

15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Why not both?  Law enforcement first, then (with police report in hand) the bishop.  That gives him something concrete to work on, and it forces his hand (in case he is too timid).

Of course. In fact, that is the scenario I presented in my two other posts but I was responding to the situation which was presented as one or the other. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Darren10

[Calm 28,908]

."Why not? I mean, is there really a Mormon culture out there who will not call the police because their priesthood leader told her she was overreacting?

I must be isolated from Mormonism in general but I cannot, for the life of me, imagine any bishop I have ever had saying any such thing to blame the woman or make her self-doubt in an abusive situation."

First off, it is a woman writing it and not a man.

And are you refusing to believe the women's accounts that have been collected in this blog because it is outside your experience?

Kind of like the bishops having a hard time believing them?

Edited February 8, 2018 by Calm

[bsjkki 2,288]

47 minutes ago, Calm said:

."Why not? I mean, is there really a Mormon culture out there who will not call the police because their priesthood leader told her she was overreacting?

I must be isolated from Mormonism in general but I cannot, for the life of me, imagine any bishop I have ever had saying any such thing to blame the woman or make her self-doubt in an abusive situation."

First off, it is a woman writing it and not a man.

And are you refusing to believe the women's accounts that have been collected in this blog because it is outside your experience?

Kind of like the bishops having a hard time believing them?

I think young women need assertiveness training and to be taught it is okay not to be nice. Sometimes we, as mormon women, conflate being Christ like with not ever being able to stand up for ourselves. Doormat syndrome is real. Combating this thinking is realizing you don't have to be nice, or take the high road, or let it slide when someone is doing something that is clearly wrong. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by bsjkki