Divine Love Is Conditional

[JLHPROF]

11 minutes ago, NobodyKnowsMe said:

And thanks for the sarcasm towards someone who has a different idea than "the mainstream."  Sarcasm surely helps things a great deal.  I've been on this site 10 minutes and I am thinking deleting my profile and saying Adios to you judgmental people might be the best thing for me. 

Nobdy is judging you simply because we differ in belief or have a slightly alternative take.

If you were looking for an echo chamber you are in the wrong place.  However we welcome open reasoned discussion from all POVs.  We don't know you, so of course we are making a judgement based on your statements.

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Then He isn't God...ultimately ...this is what a loving Heavenly Father would do.  He is waiting...even for you...and me!

So you think he should allow evil into his home?  What if evil can’t stand to be in the same room with God because he is so pure?  Should he commit sin so sinners can tolerate being with him?

Would you allow your children to bring in illegal drugs and get high or would you instead have them go somewhere they could learn to control themselves so when they come home they can feel at home rather than shameful because they know they are hurting themselves and others. 

Think of it as those who choose homelessness even after someone provides them with a home. Do you think we should basically lock those who want out into a home with us?  Or do you think we need to give up our homes and join them on the street?

He is waiting and imo will wait for as long as it takes. But he won’t force us to grow up and accept his love and gifts, he won’t force someone to live with him. 

Those who do want to live with him will change with his help so we are capable of doing so. 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Calm

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, NobodyKnowsMe said:

And thanks for the sarcasm towards someone who has a different idea than "the mainstream."  Sarcasm surely helps things a great deal.  I've been on this site 10 minutes and I am thinking deleting my profile and saying Adios to you judgmental people might be the best thing for me. 

Sarcasm is very useful and can help a great deal.

As to the joke it is pretty spot on.

4 And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life.

Also your belief is the mainstream amongst many (most?) Christians. You are not a brave rebel standing alone with some bold new idea. C.S. Lewis characterized this kind of thing as watered down Christianity with all the hard stuff taken out.

If you want to stay, you are of course welcome to. If you want to leave, you can. Your attempts to manipulate emotions to try to guilt an apology will probably not work. We discuss and joke and get angry and everything else here. We have a lot of viewpoints. Do not expect us to bend over backwards to give yours some privileged position immune to criticism because you resurrected a long dead thread to tell an emotional story.

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, NobodyKnowsMe said:

that the harlots will go into the kingdom of heaven before they did. 

But there is no indication he meant they could get in as they were without offering their spirit and body to God. Rather he was saying it would be easier for the harlots who recognized their sins to repent and lay aside their sins than the Pharisees who refused to even accept they were sinning the first place (hard to change when you don’t believe you need to).

But everyone is a sinner in some way and likely there will be a lot of shock as each of us gets to paradise and we are taught God’s full truth about who we are now and what we can become. 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, NobodyKnowsMe said:

food (a violation of the WoW that is for some reason NEVER brought up,)

Over the years I have come across a number of encouragements to eat healthier in church materials, there was even a program some years ago that included physical fitness as part of the goals. Unfortunately the search function is weird these days on the Church’s website so finding stuff is no longer appealing to me, but here is one article from a number of years ago:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2002/10/my-obsession-with-food/its-more-complex-than-overeating?lang=eng

With so many people reading online now, even older articles are relevant as they come up in searches on topics, so the numbers add up over the years. 

Here is one on greed:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1989/06/greed-when-enough-is-not-enough?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/general-conference/topics/greed?lang=eng

On both:  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1999/04/greed-selfishness-and-overindulgence?lang=eng

As far as targeting gays, I actually have heard tons more discussions at church on whether or not we should eat meat than homosexuality, but that just may be my luck.

Add-on:  they had 7 conference talks listed as on homosexuality and 12 on greed (most talks on topic list look to be from 90s and 2000s, but some older and more recent, so I am not sure what their search parameters are).

The Church also has a provident living site, which deals in part with finances, etc. 

Edited August 10, 2019 by Calm

[NobodyKnowsMe]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Sarcasm is very useful and can help a great deal.

As to the joke it is pretty spot on.

4 And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life.

Also your belief is the mainstream amongst many (most?) Christians. You are not a brave rebel standing alone with some bold new idea. C.S. Lewis characterized this kind of thing as watered down Christianity with all the hard stuff taken out.

If you want to stay, you are of course welcome to. If you want to leave, you can. Your attempts to manipulate emotions to try to guilt an apology will probably not work. We discuss and joke and get angry and everything else here. We have a lot of viewpoints. Do not expect us to bend over backwards to give yours some privileged position immune to criticism because you resurrected a long dead thread to tell an emotional story.

I found this site by accident when a friend of mine and I were looking up references to the horrid essay that is the topic of discussion, and I thought I would see what people had to say about it.  I'm hardly asking for immunity, nor did I proclaim myself a "rebel" with some grandiose idea.  Indeed, my spiritual repertoire gleans ideas and philosophies from many sources that are freely available -- among them Mormonism, Hinduism, Universalism, Buddhism, Native American spiritual practices, mysticism, Paganism, Taoism, the words of several metaphysicians, things I have gleaned from reading about near-death experiences, some personal spiritual/life coaches I have had, and what could be called "New Age" ideas.  It's like a soup; I find or read or hear something I like and I throw it in.  And from time to time I take things out that don't work anymore for me, and/or add in different things, or tweak this or that.  I am a work in progress.  The church (and many on this site) would likely call that a "buffet style gospel" and judge me, but that no longer bothers me.  I am in charge of my spiritual self, and God is always with me.  (S)He *gets* me.  

What I found inappropriate on your part was to throw my entire perspective out as junk without even talking about it and to respond only with a sarcastic jab placing everything I said on the same order as the words of Nehor, an anti-Christ.  But.. no "apology" wanted or needed, trust me.  I think it's just that my understanding of God does not fit in the box you may have put him/her/it into.  

To restate what I said in a different way:  The word sin means "missing the mark" or "missing the point."  I believe the main purpose of life (whatever incarnation that may be) is to learn.  Learn about all kinds of things, in particular things that we could only learn about by experiencing them, for whatever particular reason our soul needs to learn them at this time and in this incarnation.  The ONLY way to learn is by making what we call "mistakes."  Or, by "missing the mark" until we have s̶i̶n̶n̶e̶d̶  tried enough times that we get "it" (whatever the "it" is that we are trying to get at that time.  And it is said that the opportunity to learn a particular lesson will keep appearing until we no longer need it to.)  Compared to God, we are toddlers walking around and fiddling with things, falling down constantly, crying when we do, getting angry and wanting things "our" way, etc.  We "see through a glass, darkly."  No wonder Jesus called us "little children."  It makes little sense to me how/why God would "punish" us for m̶a̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶m̶i̶s̶t̶a̶k̶e̶s̶  learning as we grow, since that is the ONLY way to grow at all.  We're not really doing anything "wrong."  We're just wandering around in this strange world that is not our home trying to figure things out.  Why would God see one of us "miss the mark" and then run away from us, offended and pissed off (as the church says he does?)  Only a very petty being would do that.  Some things that people do are indeed heinous -- when they hurt others -- and they should be held accountable both in society and before God.  But IMO God's accountability is less of a hurling people into hell for what they have done -- the only type of accountability we know on earth is punishment/revenge and so that is what we project onto God -- (there is no hell anyways, but I digress...) -- I believe God has a better way.  It makes more sense to me that eternal accountability is more of a review of the natural results of behavior (which could be thought of as a "hell") and asking the soul, "Is this who you really want(ed) to be?"  Now this is where my ideas diverge from what the church currently teaches -- I also believe in reincarnation, in a sense (we do talk about eternal liveS) -- Joseph and Brigham had some thoughts on this phenomenon as well (though they didn't use that word,) -- read about the Adam/God Theory as one example -- I don't believe, as most do in Western religion, that we just get one chance and that's it -- so you better not blow it!!  That doesn't make much sense in my mind.  Sent to earth, with one and only one chance to "get it right" and if we F it up, then......sorry bud, you're SOL.  Nope, that doesn't work for me.  

Final thought:  My absolute favorite quote by Joseph is "Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading everything that was ever written about it."  (paraphrased slightly)  That tells me that we really don't know very much.  We like to think we do (the church supposedly has "all the answers," except it doesn't) but there is so much to learn, so much to know and understand.  Fortunately we have eternity to do it in. 









 

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, NobodyKnowsMe said:

 To restate what I said in a different way:  The word sin means "missing the mark" or "missing the point."  I believe the main purpose of life (whatever incarnation that may be) is to learn.  Learn about all kinds of things, in particular things that we could only learn about by experiencing them, for whatever particular reason our soul needs to learn them at this time and in this incarnation.  The ONLY way to learn is by making what we call "mistakes."  Or, by "missing the mark" until we have s̶i̶n̶n̶e̶d̶  tried enough times that we get "it" (whatever the "it" is that we are trying to get at that time. 

We're not really doing anything "wrong."  We're just wandering around in this strange world that is not our home trying to figure things out.  Why would God see one of us "miss the mark" and then run away from us, offended and pissed off (as the church says he does?)  Only a very petty being would do that.

I also believe in reincarnation, in a sense (we do talk about eternal liveS) -- Joseph and Brigham had some thoughts on this phenomenon as well (though they didn't use that word,) -- read about the Adam/God Theory as one example -- I don't believe, as most do in Western religion, that we just get one chance and that's it -- so you better not blow it!!  That doesn't make much sense in my mind.  Sent to earth, with one and only one chance to "get it right" and if we F it up, then......sorry bud, you're SOL.  Nope, that doesn't work for me.  

Final thought:  My absolute favorite quote by Joseph is "Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading everything that was ever written about it."  (paraphrased slightly)  That tells me that we really don't know very much.  We like to think we do (the church supposedly has "all the answers," except it doesn't) but there is so much to learn, so much to know and understand.  Fortunately we have eternity to do it in. 

There's a LOT of discussion topics in this giant post.  I quoted the 4 paragraphs I want to touch and I'll leave the rest for others.

1. A better Joseph quote for you might be "Thy mind O man if thou wilt lead a soul into salvation must search into and contemplate the darkest abyss and the broad expanse of eternity, thou must commune with God” or even "“Our Heavenly Father is more liberal in His views, and boundless in His mercies and blessings, than we are ready to believe or receive; and, at the same time, is more terrible to the workers of iniquity, more awful in the executions of His punishments, and more ready to detect every false way, than we are apt to suppose Him to be.” 

2. Your understanding of "sin" is correct in that we are here to progress through our weaknesses and God is patient and forgiving while we do it. Even that the process will continue after death.  Your understanding is incorrect in the idea that we aren't doing anything wrong in breaking laws or that God doesn't impose consequences here or in the next life for a failure or unwillingness to progress.

3. There is a big difference between reincarnation in this life and the teachings of progression found in Adam-God.  Scriptures clearly teaches reincarnation in this life doesn't happen  (Hebrews for a start).

4. Joseph's statement included the idea/implication that he had already done the gazing into heaven, therefore he did know more than had been written.  His teachings are foundational doctrines so we actually know much. Only where we have strayed from them without comparable heaven gazing do I have concerns about Church teachings today.

Glad you chose to stay for now.

[california boy]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

There's a LOT of discussion topics in this giant post.  I quoted the 4 paragraphs I want to touch and I'll leave the rest for others.

1. A better Joseph quote for you might be "Thy mind O man if thou wilt lead a soul into salvation must search into and contemplate the darkest abyss and the broad expanse of eternity, thou must commune with God” or even "“Our Heavenly Father is more liberal in His views, and boundless in His mercies and blessings, than we are ready to believe or receive; and, at the same time, is more terrible to the workers of iniquity, more awful in the executions of His punishments, and more ready to detect every false way, than we are apt to suppose Him to be.” 

2. Your understanding of "sin" is correct in that we are here to progress through our weaknesses and God is patient and forgiving while we do it. Even that the process will continue after death.  Your understanding is incorrect in the idea that we aren't doing anything wrong in breaking laws or that God doesn't impose consequences here or in the next life for a failure or unwillingness to progress.

3. There is a big difference between reincarnation in this life and the teachings of progression found in Adam-God.  Scriptures clearly teaches reincarnation in this life doesn't happen  (Hebrews for a start).

4. Joseph's statement included the idea/implication that he had already done the gazing into heaven, therefore he did know more than had been written.  His teachings are foundational doctrines so we actually know much. Only where we have strayed from them without comparable heaven gazing do I have concerns about Church teachings today.

Glad you chose to stay for now.

In a sense, the Church does teach a type of reincarnation.  We first had a life as Spirits.  We are reborn and have a life with a body. We are once again reborn in a resurrected state.  Each life is predicated on what we did in the previous life.   

 

[Scott Lloyd]

18 hours ago, NobodyKnowsMe said:

And thanks for the sarcasm towards someone who has a different idea than "the mainstream."  Sarcasm surely helps things a great deal.

. . . he said with sarcasm. 🙄

[Scott Lloyd]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

Over the years I have come across a number of encouragements to eat healthier in church materials, there was even a program some years ago that included physical fitness as part of the goals. Unfortunately the search function is weird these days on the Church’s website so finding stuff is no longer appealing to me, but here is one article from a number of years ago:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2002/10/my-obsession-with-food/its-more-complex-than-overeating?lang=eng

With so many people reading online now, even older articles are relevant as they come up in searches on topics, so the numbers add up over the years. 

Here is one on greed:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1989/06/greed-when-enough-is-not-enough?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/general-conference/topics/greed?lang=eng

On both:  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1999/04/greed-selfishness-and-overindulgence?lang=eng

As far as targeting gays, I actually have heard tons more discussions at church on whether or not we should eat meat than homosexuality, but that just may be my luck.

Add-on:  they had 7 conference talks listed as on homosexuality and 12 on greed (most talks on topic list look to be from 90s and 2000s, but some older and more recent, so I am not sure what their search parameters are).

The Church also has a provident living site, which deals in part with finances, etc. 

Notwithstanding the attention homosexuality has gotten in recent times, greed might, in fact, be a more pressing problem. 

[california boy]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Notwithstanding the attention homosexuality has gotten in recent times, greed might, in fact, be a more pressing problem. 

Come on Scott.  Don't knock us from the number one spot.  Second place is for losers.  How are we going to lead in the Second Coming that so many predict?  And to loose out to greed.  That is just shameful.  We got glitter.  What does greed have?

[NobodyKnowsMe]

6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

There's a LOT of discussion topics in this giant post.  I quoted the 4 paragraphs I want to touch and I'll leave the rest for others.

1. A better Joseph quote for you might be "Thy mind O man if thou wilt lead a soul into salvation must search into and contemplate the darkest abyss and the broad expanse of eternity, thou must commune with God” or even "“Our Heavenly Father is more liberal in His views, and boundless in His mercies and blessings, than we are ready to believe or receive; and, at the same time, is more terrible to the workers of iniquity, more awful in the executions of His punishments, and more ready to detect every false way, than we are apt to suppose Him to be.” 

2. Your understanding of "sin" is correct in that we are here to progress through our weaknesses and God is patient and forgiving while we do it. Even that the process will continue after death.  Your understanding is incorrect in the idea that we aren't doing anything wrong in breaking laws or that God doesn't impose consequences here or in the next life for a failure or unwillingness to progress.

3. There is a big difference between reincarnation in this life and the teachings of progression found in Adam-God.  Scriptures clearly teaches reincarnation in this life doesn't happen  (Hebrews for a start).

4. Joseph's statement included the idea/implication that he had already done the gazing into heaven, therefore he did know more than had been written.  His teachings are foundational doctrines so we actually know much. Only where we have strayed from them without comparable heaven gazing do I have concerns about Church teachings today.

Glad you chose to stay for now.

Indeed there are.  I have filled journal after journal with ideas I have had and been inspired towards.  
1.  I certainly like those quotes as well, but I stick by the one I wrote above as my favorite.  Another one I like, which might prove interesting -- and I am paraphrasing but you can look it up, he did indeed say it, that if he were to have told the saints everything he knew, they would rise up to kill him, as they could not bear it.  So I would still disagree with your point in #4 that we know "much."  We know some.  And what is taught in the sunday school manuals is but a tiny fraction of everything he taught.  Read the books that contain manuscripts of his journals.  Read books that contain his (and Brigham's, for that matter) writings and sermons that you will never hear in church because they are too "unorthodox."  But that doesn't make them untrue.  God -- who is without beginning of days or end of years, is infinite.  Do we really think, with our limited minds, we can boast that we totally understand "most" of what (S)He is about?  That's ridiculous.  We have been given a few basic things but there is much, much, much, much, much, much more to learn.  I am open to all possibilities.  But that view is not for everyone, I can understand that.  I didn't used to think that way myself.  
2.  "unwillingness to progress" is different from "failure" or simply making mistakes as we grow.  Most people on earth can only comprehend God through the lens of how things are done here.  And how do we shape people's character here?  How do we enforce "laws" here?  What do we do when people "miss the mark?"  Punishment.  Break the rules?  Punishment.  Prison, etc.  I believe that with God, whose ways are higher than ours, there is a better way.  I don't pretend to know exactly what that is -- though I have some ideas -- but it only seems to me that God would have something greater in design than throwing people in "prison" (energetically/spiritually) for simply stumbling as we grow.  And perhaps it is left as a mystery because it is one of those things we "cannot bear."  We can agree to disagree on that.  -- And there is no hell anyways -- it's not included any longer, but if you read early transcripts of the endowment it is plainly taught that there is no such place.  D&C 19:6-12 talks about how, essentially, some things are deliberately left ambiguous (or even allowed to be believed though they are untrue) to "work on the hearts of the children of men."    
3.  There are more scriptures than just the Bible.    The Vedas and other ancient writings fall into the category of "scripture" as far as I'm concerned.  Probably another "agree to disagree" item.  And there are a few other such books that speak volumes of what I believe are "the mysteries."  (I forget the exact location but there is a verse(s) in Alma that talks about how it is given unto many to know the mysteries -- and then the charge to not reveal them (why?--never understood that) -- I don't believe God only speaks to Nelson, or that anciently it was only Moses or Noah or Nephi or even Joseph.  
4.  Joseph did indeed gaze into heaven, but do you really believe that the LDS scriptures/manuals contain everything he saw and learned??  If 5 minutes of gazing would reveal more than all the books in the world have written about it, how does that make sense, given that he gazed for a LOT longer than that.....? 
I "stay" in my own way (as I'm sure you've figured out.)  Most "orthodox" members I have talked to believe a lot of my ideas to be wrong/nonsense/heresy/etc.  That doesn't bother me.  There was a time when it would have, but not anymore.  But I do like sharing them, so I do appreciate you taking the time to respond, even if we disagree on some (many?) things.
~nobodyknowsme


 

[NobodyKnowsMe]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

. . . he said with sarcasm. 🙄

Funny how that works, isn't it?  😜

[NobodyKnowsMe]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

In a sense, the Church does teach a type of reincarnation.  We first had a life as Spirits.  We are reborn and have a life with a body. We are once again reborn in a resurrected state.  Each life is predicated on what we did in the previous life.   

 

Indeed.  And all of this has prompted me to ask more questions.  "We first had life as spirits."  What were we doing "up there" before coming here -- especially since intelligence, or the light of truth, is eternal and cannot be created or made?  Since there is no beginning or end in God's world (no time as we understand it) I would like to know, if I was not experiencing/learning/growing/progressing through other lifetimes, what exactly was I doing?  Sitting in a classroom taking notes?  Strumming a harp?  There's got to be more to it than that in my mind.  "We are once again reborn in a resurrected state."  And then what?  If progression is eternal, growth is eternal, light is eternal, how do we experience this growth?  And I don't believe it is through an eternity of having spirit babies with multiple wives.  We came here to learn, to progress, to grow.  If we are to continue to learn, why not another lifetime?  Or more?  Hinduism teaches that a soul continues in the karma cycle (call that "reaping consequences" if you will) until we essentially learn all we are required to learn and become one with the light.  I'm not declaring it as THE way, or even that I 100% believe it.  I'm saying it is an idea that makes more sense to me than:  "You get one shot on earth.  You either pass or fail -- like a test in high school.  If you pass, you get to be with God and spend eternity doing _____ [whatever God does].  If you fail, it sucks for you forEVER."  There must be more than that.  What kind of parent would this make God?  Not a very merciful one, I'll say that  much.  

[mfbukowski]

23 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Then He isn't God...ultimately ...this is what a loving Heavenly Father would do.  He is waiting...even for you...and me!

Surely you understand tough love, as a parent will prohibit certain things for the child's good, and maybe even creating a little distance between parent and child so that the child will understand the seriousness of what they have done. To carry it to an absurd degree just to illustrate the point can you imagine a parent upon learning that the child just murdered someone saying "oh oh come here you need a hug."

Perhaps the analogy would be grounding the child or sending them to their room. It is actually showing that the parent loves the child not that he does not.

[california boy]

7 hours ago, NobodyKnowsMe said:

Indeed there are.  I have filled journal after journal with ideas I have had and been inspired towards.  
1.  I certainly like those quotes as well, but I stick by the one I wrote above as my favorite.  Another one I like, which might prove interesting -- and I am paraphrasing but you can look it up, he did indeed say it, that if he were to have told the saints everything he knew, they would rise up to kill him, as they could not bear it.  So I would still disagree with your point in #4 that we know "much."  We know some.  And what is taught in the sunday school manuals is but a tiny fraction of everything he taught.  Read the books that contain manuscripts of his journals.  Read books that contain his (and Brigham's, for that matter) writings and sermons that you will never hear in church because they are too "unorthodox."  But that doesn't make them untrue.  God -- who is without beginning of days or end of years, is infinite.  Do we really think, with our limited minds, we can boast that we totally understand "most" of what (S)He is about?  That's ridiculous.  We have been given a few basic things but there is much, much, much, much, much, much more to learn.  I am open to all possibilities.  But that view is not for everyone, I can understand that.  I didn't used to think that way myself.  
2.  "unwillingness to progress" is different from "failure" or simply making mistakes as we grow.  Most people on earth can only comprehend God through the lens of how things are done here.  And how do we shape people's character here?  How do we enforce "laws" here?  What do we do when people "miss the mark?"  Punishment.  Break the rules?  Punishment.  Prison, etc.  I believe that with God, whose ways are higher than ours, there is a better way.  I don't pretend to know exactly what that is -- though I have some ideas -- but it only seems to me that God would have something greater in design than throwing people in "prison" (energetically/spiritually) for simply stumbling as we grow.  And perhaps it is left as a mystery because it is one of those things we "cannot bear."  We can agree to disagree on that.  -- And there is no hell anyways -- it's not included any longer, but if you read early transcripts of the endowment it is plainly taught that there is no such place.  D&C 19:6-12 talks about how, essentially, some things are deliberately left ambiguous (or even allowed to be believed though they are untrue) to "work on the hearts of the children of men."    
3.  There are more scriptures than just the Bible.    The Vedas and other ancient writings fall into the category of "scripture" as far as I'm concerned.  Probably another "agree to disagree" item.  And there are a few other such books that speak volumes of what I believe are "the mysteries."  (I forget the exact location but there is a verse(s) in Alma that talks about how it is given unto many to know the mysteries -- and then the charge to not reveal them (why?--never understood that) -- I don't believe God only speaks to Nelson, or that anciently it was only Moses or Noah or Nephi or even Joseph.  
4.  Joseph did indeed gaze into heaven, but do you really believe that the LDS scriptures/manuals contain everything he saw and learned??  If 5 minutes of gazing would reveal more than all the books in the world have written about it, how does that make sense, given that he gazed for a LOT longer than that.....? 
I "stay" in my own way (as I'm sure you've figured out.)  Most "orthodox" members I have talked to believe a lot of my ideas to be wrong/nonsense/heresy/etc.  That doesn't bother me.  There was a time when it would have, but not anymore.  But I do like sharing them, so I do appreciate you taking the time to respond, even if we disagree on some (many?) things.
~nobodyknowsme


 

 

7 hours ago, NobodyKnowsMe said:

Indeed.  And all of this has prompted me to ask more questions.  "We first had life as spirits."  What were we doing "up there" before coming here -- especially since intelligence, or the light of truth, is eternal and cannot be created or made?  Since there is no beginning or end in God's world (no time as we understand it) I would like to know, if I was not experiencing/learning/growing/progressing through other lifetimes, what exactly was I doing?  Sitting in a classroom taking notes?  Strumming a harp?  There's got to be more to it than that in my mind.  "We are once again reborn in a resurrected state."  And then what?  If progression is eternal, growth is eternal, light is eternal, how do we experience this growth?  And I don't believe it is through an eternity of having spirit babies with multiple wives.  We came here to learn, to progress, to grow.  If we are to continue to learn, why not another lifetime?  Or more?  Hinduism teaches that a soul continues in the karma cycle (call that "reaping consequences" if you will) until we essentially learn all we are required to learn and become one with the light.  I'm not declaring it as THE way, or even that I 100% believe it.  I'm saying it is an idea that makes more sense to me than:  "You get one shot on earth.  You either pass or fail -- like a test in high school.  If you pass, you get to be with God and spend eternity doing _____ [whatever God does].  If you fail, it sucks for you forEVER."  There must be more than that.  What kind of parent would this make God?  Not a very merciful one, I'll say that  much.  

You have some interesting ideas.  I like listening to different points of view.  Hope you stick around.