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Divine Love Is Conditional


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Divine Love Is Also Conditional

While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional.  Elder Russell M Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve

In a 2003 Ensign article, then Elder Nelson characterized God's love as conditional. How can God’s love be infinite if it is bounded or limited by conditions? How can God’s love be enduring if it cannot endure sin or disobedience? How can it be universal if it excludes those you don’t approve of? How can it be perfect if it is less reliable than the love of good children for abusive parents or that of good parents for errant children?  I don't believe God's love for us changes based upon our behavior. I certainly hope President Nelson's view on that topic has changed since then.

 

Here is a link to the article.

2003 Ensign Article "Divine Love"

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Or you could read the talk and see all the scriptures provided that explain this point.
Why would President Nelson's view change from what scripture says?

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18 minutes ago, Investigator said:

In a 2003 Ensign article, then Elder Nelson characterized God's love as conditional. How can God’s love be infinite if it is bounded or limited by conditions? How can God’s love be enduring if it cannot endure sin or disobedience? How can it be universal if it excludes those you don’t approve of? How can it be perfect if it is less reliable than the love of good children for abusive parents or that of good parents for errant children?  I don't believe God's love for us changes based upon our behavior. I certainly hope President Nelson's view on that topic has changed since then.

 

Here is a link to the article.

2003 Ensign Article "Divine Love"

This raises the question: which of God's children does he no longer love?

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1 minute ago, Gray said:

This raises the question: which of God's children does he no longer love?

“If ye keep my commandments, [then] ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.”

“If you keep not my commandments, [then] the love of the Father shall not continue with you.”

“If a man love me, [then] he will keep my words: and my Father will love him.”

“I love them that love me; and those that seek me … shall find me.”

“God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”

The Lord “loveth those who will have him to be their God.”

“He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.”

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7 minutes ago, Investigator said:

In a 2003 Ensign article, then Elder Nelson characterized God's love as conditional. How can God’s love be infinite if it is bounded or limited by conditions? How can God’s love be enduring if it cannot endure sin or disobedience? How can it be universal if it excludes those you don’t approve of? How can it be perfect if it is less reliable than the love of good children for abusive parents or that of good parents for errant children?  I don't believe God's love for us changes based upon our behavior. I certainly hope President Nelson's view on that topic has changed since then.

There are some If - then statements by Jesus on point. 

“If ye keep my commandments, [then] ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.” John 15:10

“If you keep not my commandments, [then] the love of the Father shall not continue with you.” D&C

"For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son, that whose believeth on Him should not perish but have everlasting life." John

So there are conditions to be able to abide in His love - for Him to manifest it to you. He does love everyone, but He does not bless the disobedient. Perhaps it would be better to say that in order to receive all the blessings of His love, there are conditions we must meet.

This really is no different than a good parent. I love all my children, but if they were disobedient they did not always receive the blessings of that love. If they did not brush their teeth, do their homework, and their chores then they did not receive the blessing of going out to the all-you-can-eat-buffet, or going to the nickelcade with the rest of the family. God's love is not much different. Although He loves everybody and wants them to return to Him, He will send some to hell because they did not follow the commandments nor repent, so they could not "abide in His love." God is no respecter of persons, so He doesn't show favoritism in this regard. There are none predestined to hell as Calvinists believe. Everyone gets the same opportunity - eventually - to repent and be saved through our Savior, but salvation is conditional.

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1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

“If ye keep my commandments, [then] ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.”

“If you keep not my commandments, [then] the love of the Father shall not continue with you.”

“If a man love me, [then] he will keep my words: and my Father will love him.”

“I love them that love me; and those that seek me … shall find me.”

“God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”

The Lord “loveth those who will have him to be their God.”

“He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.”

Meh. We all know we can find passages to support either position, or reinterpret the same passage two ways to support two positions.

Jeremiah 31:3 The LORD appeared to us in the past, saying: I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with loving-kindness.

Psalm 52:8b I trust in God’s unfailing love for ever and ever.

Psalm 136:2 Give thanks to the God of gods. His love endures forever.

 

John is a frequently used source in the above, seeming to suggest that God only loves those who keep the commandments. Meaning God loves Jesus alone and no one else?

 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I wrote then Elder Nelson a letter about it, he wrote back! God's love is unconditional but it's conditioned upon us accepting it. His loving us doesn't mean we can do whatever we want and he just accepts it, he loves enough to want to change us into "new creatures"

I love this!

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15 minutes ago, pogi said:

He loves all of his children.  President Nelson never said otherwise.  He specifically emphasized that God's love is "infinite and universal":

President Nelson preemptively answered your question in his talk:

In other words, God's love is infinite and universal, but our experience of God's love is conditional upon us accepting it.  God's arms are always extended towards us (all of us) in love, the conditional part is whether or not we will turn towards him.   

Then God's love is unconditional. Our ability to notice it depends on our receptivity.

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1 hour ago, Investigator said:

In a 2003 Ensign article, then Elder Nelson characterized God's love as conditional. How can God’s love be infinite if it is bounded or limited by conditions? How can God’s love be enduring if it cannot endure sin or disobedience? How can it be universal if it excludes those you don’t approve of? How can it be perfect if it is less reliable than the love of good children for abusive parents or that of good parents for errant children?  I don't believe God's love for us changes based upon our behavior. I certainly hope President Nelson's view on that topic has changed since then.

 

Here is a link to the article.

2003 Ensign Article "Divine Love"

The word love can be used both as a noun and an action verb. God’s emotional feelings of love remain constant for all, but his ability to express his love to his children through action can be short circuited and rendered ineffectual if one does not respond in a manner that enables him to receive God’s love. In the eternal scheme of things, mercy (one of the greatest expressions of God’s love in action) cannot rob justice. If God could save us by feelings of affection alone, we would need no suffering and atoning Savior.

Edited by Bobbieaware
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55 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I wrote then Elder Nelson a letter about it, he wrote back! God's love is unconditional but it's conditioned upon us accepting it. His loving us doesn't mean we can do whatever we want and he just accepts it, he loves enough to want to change us into "new creatures"

:):)  Either he doesn't understand what "condition" means or he doesn't understand what "love" means.  Me thinks he is using his own personal definitions for these words. There is certainly something lost in translation.

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43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

 

Does God keep his own commandments?

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9 minutes ago, Gray said:

Then God's love is unconditional. Our ability to notice it depends on our receptivity.

Yes and no.  Words get in the way, but I understand what President Nelson is trying to say, and as he explained in a personal letter to our very own Duncan.  His love is unconditional in some respects, yes, but I think the love that President Nelson was speaking of is the type of love that can only be given when accepted.  For example, a mother who's child ran away will never be able to give the love that she wants to give to the child.  The ability to love her child in the way that she wants has been taken from her.  Those experiences of love that she wants to give her child, such as nurturing, hugging, laughing with, giving heart felt presents to, spending time with, crying with, showing her pride, etc. etc. etc. are conditional upon the child being present to receive it, though her feelings of love will be entirely unconditional.  

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21 minutes ago, Lemuel said:

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

 

Does God keep his own commandments?

You’re not differentiating between God’s constant feelings of emotional love that never change and the fulfillment of his love in action. Even Christ testified that the Father’s love toward him was conditioned upon his willingness to successfully endure the agonies of his atoning sacrifice.

17 THEREFORE doth my Father love me, BECAUSE I lay down my life, that I might take it again. (the word ‘therefore’ means “for this reason.”)

President Russell got it right...

 

Edited by Bobbieaware
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25 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Semantics.

Much ado about definitions of words which are inherently ambiguous.

Knock yourself out.  Philosophies of men mingled with scripture.   Nothing here, move along.  ;)

 

You could probably copy/paste this post into just about any thread on this forum and it would be relevant. Would probably make a good quote to have in your signature :)

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1 hour ago, Investigator said:

In a 2003 Ensign article, then Elder Nelson characterized God's love as conditional. How can God’s love be infinite if it is bounded or limited by conditions? How can God’s love be enduring if it cannot endure sin or disobedience? How can it be universal if it excludes those you don’t approve of? How can it be perfect if it is less reliable than the love of good children for abusive parents or that of good parents for errant children?  I don't believe God's love for us changes based upon our behavior. I certainly hope President Nelson's view on that topic has changed since then.

 

Here is a link to the article.

2003 Ensign Article "Divine Love"

And so it begins, the comments out of context. Other comments within the same address and the supporting scriptures that define those comments. Rather than (again) giving the full context, of what is being described as President Nelson's beliefs, and the hope that he no longer believes in this "narrowly defined, idea of conditional love". It is not President Nelson who believes (well being scriptural, I hope he does) or fosters this, doctrine of both God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. The scriptures noted in this sermon, and many others, make it clear that God loves all without condition, as parents do their children (or this is the hope of God and children everywhere), with perfect love, but not with the perfect accepting of their sins. For God, who is always loving of His child, or children, God however "loves the sinner (or his child) but hates the sin", thus perfect love, carries with it perfect punishment with or for unresolved sins. 

His love was so unconditional, that He sent His "Only Begotten", as the perfect expression of that perfect love. He did this, because (simply) someone had to pay for sin, despite "unconditional love", as so many wish to give it a name. Now despite the 66 books of the Bible, the books of the Book of Mormon, the 138 chapters of the Doctrine and Coventants, somehow these views are now President Nelson's views? Or to be blunt, two weeks ago this talk would have barely been noticed, or warrant a hick up. Now that he is Prophet and President, people are dusting off their mining tools to go "quote mining". All in n effort to dig comments up, use large font set, so that others might share the view of the poster, or "Thread Author". What a shame, what a shame. 

 

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2 hours ago, Investigator said:

In a 2003 Ensign article, then Elder Nelson characterized God's love as conditional. How can God’s love be infinite if it is bounded or limited by conditions? How can God’s love be enduring if it cannot endure sin or disobedience? How can it be universal if it excludes those you don’t approve of? How can it be perfect if it is less reliable than the love of good children for abusive parents or that of good parents for errant children?  I don't believe God's love for us changes based upon our behavior. I certainly hope President Nelson's view on that topic has changed since then.

 

Here is a link to the article.

2003 Ensign Article "Divine Love"

I wonder if you’re at all aware of the fact that there a several verses of New Testament scripture that unambiguously speak of God’s love being conditional? I already posted one of these quotations (delivered by the Savior, no less) and now I will post three more verses for you to consider.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me SHALL be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, IF a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father WILL love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. (John 14)

Edited by Bobbieaware
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2 hours ago, Investigator said:

In a 2003 Ensign article, then Elder Nelson characterized God's love as conditional. How can God’s love be infinite if it is bounded or limited by conditions? How can God’s love be enduring if it cannot endure sin or disobedience? How can it be universal if it excludes those you don’t approve of? How can it be perfect if it is less reliable than the love of good children for abusive parents or that of good parents for errant children?  I don't believe God's love for us changes based upon our behavior. I certainly hope President Nelson's view on that topic has changed since then.

 

Here is a link to the article.

2003 Ensign Article "Divine Love"

I have an important counter question for you; Are you Christian?

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2 hours ago, Gray said:

This raises the question: which of God's children does he no longer love?

On what scriptural or other basis can we assert G-d no longer loves Satan  ...  or Cain  ...  or <insert your favorite moral monster here>?

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It took me a while to understand the full meaning of that talk. But I realized that although God's love is "perfect, infinite, and universal for all mankind", He is not going to give everyone eternal life just because they want it and because He loves them.  This higher form of divine love where God gives us all He has is dependent on our becoming the kind of person that can abide exaltation in the celestial Kingdom. That is the condition.

Edited by JAHS
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7 hours ago, Duncan said:

 he loves enough to want to change us into "new creatures"

C.S. Lewis says something like this in his work "The Problem of Pain".

"If God is Love, He is, by definition, something more than mere kindness.  And it appears, from all the records, that though He has often rebuked us and condemned us, he has never regarded us with contempt.  He has paid us the most intolerable compliment of loving us, in the deepest, most tragic, most inexorable sense."

"We were made not primarily that we may love God (though we were made for that too) but that God may love us . . . To ask that God's love should be content with us as we are is to ask that God should cease to be God: because He is what He is, his love must, in the nature of things, be impeded and repelled by certain stains in our present character, and because He already loves us He must labour to make us loveable.  We cannot even wish, in our better moments, that He could reconcile Himself to our present impurities."

I'm not even saying I agree with Brother Lewis, but it has been something worth thinking about; and my point is President Nelson didn't invent this; many have wrestled with what it means to be loved by God.

I'm also reminded of the verse in Jacob (3:2): "O all ye that are pure in heart, lift up your heads and receive the pleasing word of God, and feast upon his love; for ye may, if your minds are firm, forever."

Edited by Maidservant
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