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Variety: LDS Musician Confronts His Church’s LGBT Stance in New Sundance Documentary

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3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I'm looking forward to seeing it. I'm anticipating a fair and diplomatic documentary. It may not be perfectly rosy, but I don't suspect it will be a hit piece either.

Yeah, I am pretty sure that most rational people will not see it as a hit piece. Constructive criticism? Yes. but it also points out a lot of positive about the Mormon Church in the Mormon people in terms of improving relationships with LGBT

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Just now, FearlessFixxer said:

Yeah, I am pretty sure that most rational people will not see it as a hit piece. Constructive criticism? Yes. but it also points out a lot of positive about the Mormon Church in the Mormon people in terms of improving relationships with LGBT

For some people, there is no such thing as constructive criticism of the church. 

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I really like the "it gets better" idea linked above. The second thought I had my second time around was that it "got better last time. It can get better this time." 

I have shared that with people with the statement that I understood if they didn’t believe me because I wouldn't have believed me the first time around. It won't make a difference for some, but may for others. 

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8 minutes ago, FearlessFixxer said:

Yeah, I am pretty sure that most rational people will not see it as a hit piece. Constructive criticism? Yes. but it also points out a lot of positive about the Mormon Church in the Mormon people in terms of improving relationships with LGBT

This response is not out of disagreement about the documentary. I there is positive, I will appreciate it. 

This response also is not meant as a criticism of you personally or nit-picking this specific comment.

With that said: I am deeply bothered by the rhetorical implications of this type of statement. It attempts to delegitimize any potential disagreement. In a civil society, if I see the documentary as a hit piece, I may be right or I may be wrong.  But in today's polarized climate, exemplified by this comment, if I see it as a hit piece, I'm not rational. I'm not just wrong, I'm crazy. No discussion or dialogue can take place. 

I'm not saying this only happens on "one side." And I need to do a better job at calling it out when it's "my side." But I believe that we will all benefit from respectfully disagreeing and discussing our differences. 

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1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

For some people, there is no such thing as constructive criticism of the church. 

Touché

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45 minutes ago, kllindley said:

This response is not out of disagreement about the documentary. I there is positive, I will appreciate it. 

This response also is not meant as a criticism of you personally or nit-picking this specific comment.

With that said: I am deeply bothered by the rhetorical implications of this type of statement. It attempts to delegitimize any potential disagreement. In a civil society, if I see the documentary as a hit piece, I may be right or I may be wrong.  But in today's polarized climate, exemplified by this comment, if I see it as a hit piece, I'm not rational. I'm not just wrong, I'm crazy. No discussion or dialogue can take place. 

I'm not saying this only happens on "one side." And I need to do a better job at calling it out when it's "my side." But I believe that we will all benefit from respectfully disagreeing and discussing our differences. 

You make a fair point

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2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

 

I did not mean to indicate all the tests are "objective" but certainly some of them are designed with a certain science of determining objectivity. A agree that some of the tests a patient can clearly cheat on if they want. Anyway, my assertion stands that the testing does make psychology at least partially an empirical science. Some of the tests are pretty good at catching fakers. 

The last idiot psychologist who administered a battery of tests to me concluded that the pattern of my responses is consistent with someone who is attempting to present himself favorably. (I wish I were as smart as he apparently thinks I am ... :rolleyes:)

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59 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

The last idiot psychologist who administered a battery of tests to me concluded that the pattern of my responses is consistent with someone who is attempting to present himself favorably. (I wish I were as smart as he apparently thinks I am ... :rolleyes:)

I was taught they had to have special measures for Mormons because they often routinely did what others would often say they did, but didn't when trying to look good...such as pray daily, study scriptures daily, go the church every Sunday.

Not saying we are routinely better, only expectations are different.  Our culture teaches these things as requirements rather than just good things to do if you choose so.

Edited by Calm
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34 minutes ago, Calm said:

I was taught they had to have special measures for Mormons because they often routinely did what others would often say they did, but didn't when trying to look good...such as pray daily, study scriptures daily, go the church every Sunday.

Not saying we are routinely better, only expectations are different.  Our culture teaches these things as requirements rather than just good things to do if you choose so.

And then there's the noted psychologist Joy Behar, who thinks its OK if someone talks to God, but he's gotta be crazy if he thinks God talks back to him (said of Mike Pence).

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A family member came out as gay recently, and my first thought was, Thank heavens he’s not in the church and doesn’t have to deal with all of that. 

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1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

A family member came out as gay recently, and my first thought was, Thank heavens he’s not in the church and doesn’t have to deal with all of that. 

I can imagine what people would say if my first thought when hearing someone was marrying outside the temple was "what a shame they won't have a real family".

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5 minutes ago, Calm said:

I can imagine what people would say if my first thought when hearing someone was marrying outside the temple was "what a shame they won't have a real family".

That is not what I meant at all. His non-LDS family treated his being gay as basically trivial. I think it would have been a huge deal if he were on the Mormon side of the family. Not surprisingly, he isn’t going to tell his LDS grandparents (my parents). I don’t blame him, as I would describe their attitude toward homosexuals as loathing and contempt, only those words aren’t strong enough. 

I can see how what I wrote would be offensive to you, but I do believe it’s much harder to be gay and Mormon than outside of the church. 

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Especially if people keep telling one how hard they have it.

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