Speaking In Tongue's As Evidence Of Salvation

[mrmarklin]

On 11/12/2017 at 11:32 PM, Bobbieaware said:

The prophet Nephi taught a doctrine very similar to the belief held by the Pentecostals. He taught:

13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me. (2 Nephi 31)

And again:

2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do. (2 Nephi 32)

So it turns out the Pentecostals agree with the teachings of the Book of Mormon.

Uh, actually not. The tongue of angels is speaking with the power of the Holy Ghost, not a different language, which I believe the preacher meant.

[mrmarklin]

IMHO the gift of tongues is most evident among foreign missionaries and the facility of learning their assigned language. I feel it’s very strong in myself. When I was in Spain a few years ago the desk clerk asked where I was from. I said why do you ask.  He said you don’t have an accent. We were speaking Spanish. 

 

I feel very blessed. 

[Bobbieaware]

3 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

Uh, actually not. The tongue of angels is speaking with the power of the Holy Ghost, not a different language, which I believe the preacher meant.

It’s the Savior himself who testifies the God-given ability to speak in “new tongues” is one of the several signs that will follow true believers. Nephi simply enlarges our understanding of what is meant by the expression “new tongues”.

Nephi’s point is that the spiritual gift of being able speak the language of divine revelation in one’s own native tongue is just as much a manifestation of the gift of tongues as having the spiritual gift of being able to preach the gospel in a language other in one’s own native tongue.

Because the ability to preach the gospel with convincing spiritual power is one of the manifestations of the gift of tongues, our job as Latter-Day Saints is to help the Pentecostals to understand that the ability to speak the words that Christ would speak if he were personally present (divine revelation or scripture) is part and parcel of the gift of tongues. This is why in subsequent posts I said Nephi’s words might serve as a springboard for dialogue on this subject. But even now there can be a broad general agreement between the Latter-Day Saints and Pentecostals that the true followers of Christ will have the ability to speak in “new tongues,” for that expression is the one used by Nephi.

After all is said and done, Nephi agrees with the Pentecostals that the true followers of Christ must necessarily have the ability, when needed, to speak in new tongues, including but not limited to speaking the words of Christ in one’s own native tongue. Just because some Pentecostals may be ignorant of this fact is no reason for Latter-Day Saints to not go ahead and agree with the Pentecostals that one of the signs that follow true believers is the ability to speak in new tongues. Remember, when Christ spoke the words of divine revelation in his own native language  the majority of his fellow countrymen, who spoke the same language, did not understand him — he may as well have been speaking Chinese.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[LittleNipper]

8 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Accepting = an action.

Saying = an action.

Action is not a work. A work is attempting to do something special in order to gain favor. Breathing is an action, but it is not a work ---it is a necessity. 

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Action is not a work. A work is attempting to do something special in order to gain favor. Breathing is an action, but it is not a work ---it is a necessity. 

According to which dictionary?

I've seen some Protestants declare that we have no active part in salvation -- that's simply unBiblical.  Accepting = an action.  Believing = an action.  Proclaiming = an action.  Being a Christian has a lot of active parts.

[Anakin7]

    Faith [pistis in greek] which is an action means allegence,commitment,confidence,devotion,discipleship,faithfulness,fidelity,loyalty,obedience,/trust and in the Christian Biblical house those are new covenant labors of love works one must perform to be/stay in the covenent of True Grace of Christ Jesus.

The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel Son Of Thunder Kryptonian

[Anakin7]

3 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Action is not a work. A work is attempting to do something special in order to gain favor. Breathing is an action, but it is not a work ---it is a necessity. 

    Staying in True Salvation [The New Covenant ] is a Labor of Love action to stay in favor, No OSAS.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7 

LDS Sentinel Son Of Thunder Kryptonian

 

Edited November 17, 2017 by Anakin7

[clarkgoble]

13 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

It’s the Savior himself who testifies the God-given ability to speak in “new tongues” is one of the several signs that will follow true believers. Nephi simply enlarges our understanding of what is meant by the expression “new tongues”.

Nephi’s point is that the spiritual gift of being able speak the language of divine revelation in one’s own native tongue is just as much a manifestation of the gift of tongues as having the spiritual gift of being able to preach the gospel in a language other in one’s own native tongue.

I'm not sure I'd go that far. I think "tongue of angels" is the voice of revelation, as I've argued earlier. But I think the gift of tongues in literally speaking in a different language whether than be some natural language or whatever language(s) they choose to speak in heaven. I confess I don't quite understand the fascination speaking Adamaic that some have.

It's worth noting that while this was an issue in the early LDS church it actually predates the Church by quite a bit. An amazing book I am continually recommending is Umberto Eco's The Search for the Perfect Language which goes through the history of this as a way of dealing with the sweep of history of Europe. He not only gets at the aspects of the dream of Adamaic in Europe but also exactly what "perfect language" was even interpreted to mean. It turns out there were two radically different approaches. One was the idea of a language perfectly able to purely reference things in an unambiguous fashion. This was seen against the goal of taxonomies for various creatures and so forth. The other move, seen especially in Kabbalism, was a perfectly metaphoric language in which words could express anything. Needless to say these two views are polar opposites.

Many who talk about the language of angels or heaven as an actual language end up touching on these issues, but usually in a fashion they've not really thought through very well.

[Stargazer]

On 11/13/2017 at 7:47 PM, JLHPROF said:

Joseph Smith taught many principles relating to the gift of tongues.

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-33?lang=eng

• Joseph Smith then gave an explanation of the gift of tongues, that it was particularly instituted for the preaching of the Gospel to other nations and languages, but it was not given for the government of the Church.
• As to the gift of tongues, all we can say is, that in this place, we have received it as the ancients did: we wish you, however, to be careful lest in this you be deceived. … Satan will no doubt trouble you about the gift of tongues, unless you are careful; you cannot watch him too closely, nor pray too much. May the Lord give you wisdom in all things.
• I read the 13th chapter of First Corinthians [at a meeting held on December 26, 1841], also a part of the 14th chapter, and remarked that the gift of tongues was necessary in the Church; … the gift of tongues by the power of the Holy Ghost in the Church, is for the benefit of the servants of God to preach to unbelievers, as on the day of Pentecost.
• Tongues were given for the purpose of preaching among those whose language is not understood; as on the day of Pentecost, etc., and it is not necessary for tongues to be taught to the Church particularly, for any man that has the Holy Ghost, can speak of the things of God in his own tongue as well as to speak in another; for faith comes not by signs, but by hearing the word of God.
• Be not so curious about tongues, do not speak in tongues except there be an interpreter present; the ultimate design of tongues is to speak to foreigners, and if persons are very anxious to display their intelligence, let them speak to such in their own tongues. The gifts of God are all useful in their place, but when they are applied to that which God does not intend, they prove an injury, a snare and a curse instead of a blessing.
• We have also had brethren and sisters who have had the gift of tongues falsely; they would speak in a muttering, unnatural voice, and their bodies be distorted … ; whereas, there is nothing unnatural in the Spirit of God.
• Speak not in the gift of tongues without understanding it, or without interpretation. The devil can speak in tongues; the adversary will come with his work; he can tempt all classes; can speak in English or Dutch. Let no one speak in tongues unless he interpret, except by the consent of the one who is placed to preside; then he may discern or interpret, or another may.
• If you have a matter to reveal, let it be in your own tongue; do not indulge too much in the exercise of the gift of tongues, or the devil will take advantage of the innocent and unwary. You may speak in tongues for your own comfort, but I lay this down for a rule, that if anything is taught by the gift of tongues, it is not to be received for doctrine.

 

And most interestingly he also taught that "The gift of tongues is the smallest gift perhaps of the whole, and yet it is one that is the most sought after."
Interesting that is is considered the least of the gifts.

A man of my acquaintance seems to be gifted in that he finds it relatively easy to learn other languages.  He confided in me that his patriarchal blessing says that he has been blessed with the gift of tongues, specifically for preaching the Gospel. Although he has wondered if being told about having the gift contributed to his facility (a form of placebo effect), he said that when he was studying a language on his own time while in high school (using one of those Teach Yourself books), he was surprised to find that he could read and understand the language quickly (without translating in his head) after only scant acquaintance -- before he visited the patriarch.  And could quickly and easily pick up a credible near-native accent in any language he began to study.  

But he never experienced being able to instantly speak any language he had not previously studied.

One of my missionary companions told me about an experience one of his aunts had. She had been attending a non-LDS church, one of those Pentecostal sorts that are big into glossolalia, and they had invited her to come forward to see if she could speak in tongues. They gave her a scriptural sentence to repeat, and then had her say it over and over and faster and faster until she finally started garbling it badly.  Whereupon they threw up their hands in exultation, exclaiming that she was speaking in tongues. Whereupon she nearly laughed her head off, thus upsetting the poor folks. His aunt, he said, had a strong testimony of the LDS church, just wasn't particularly strong on attending, and knew darned well that that babbling like that had nothing to do with speaking in tongues.

[rodheadlee]

On 11/12/2017 at 10:50 PM, Anakin7 said:

    Today 2 of my Elders/Missionaries in my Ward told me of an encounter they had with a local pentecostal minister this past week who told them they after one is baptized in Jesus name they must speak in tongue's as evidence of there salvation. I shared some brief thought I had with them and thought I would share it with you all to get your thoughts/responses to pass on to them. Thank you in advance.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

  

 

I talk in tongues when I have a fever. If it gets 2 be 104 or up

 

 

[clarkgoble]

27 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

One of my missionary companions told me about an experience one of his aunts had. She had been attending a non-LDS church, one of those Pentecostal sorts that are big into glossolalia, and they had invited her to come forward to see if she could speak in tongues. They gave her a scriptural sentence to repeat, and then had her say it over and over and faster and faster until she finally started garbling it badly.  Whereupon they threw up their hands in exultation, exclaiming that she was speaking in tongues. Whereupon she nearly laughed her head off, thus upsetting the poor folks. His aunt, he said, had a strong testimony of the LDS church, just wasn't particularly strong on attending, and knew darned well that that babbling like that had nothing to do with speaking in tongues.

In one of my areas just prior to my being transferred in a woman who'd been raised in charismatic traditions when baptized came up speaking in tongues. It kind of shocked the ward. It makes sense that people are conditioned to behave in a particular way when feeling the spirit. I am firmly convinced the Holy Ghost will testify of truth to people earnestly seeking it even if they don't yet have the gift of the Holy Ghost. So people in all religious traditions can feel the promptings of the spirit. If when you feel that you're told to behave in a certain way people will.

In a similar fashion our own services which are, outsider of the temple, part of the low church tradition (i.e. stripped down to minimalist decoration, symbolism and so forth) tend to be rather restrained in terms of music and performance. This can be pretty shocking to those raised in more exuberant services. (Whether Catholic or charismatic or even many typical Evangelical services) In a certain way it's somewhat arbitrary. Services in the very early LDS church are different from the typical sacrament meeting today - especially likely in terms of cadence of speech and other forms. Likewise I suspect all LDS services varied quite a bit from the typical early Christian service or pre-Christian synagogue. 

[Avatar4321]

14 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Action is not a work. A work is attempting to do something special in order to gain favor. Breathing is an action, but it is not a work ---it is a necessity. 

Baptism is a necessity as well.

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Phil 2:12)

[Raymond Ellis]

Speaking in tongues is only a good thing to do if there are foreign people around you can understand what your saying -- as happened on the day of Pentecost. But is speaking in tongues a sign that you are saved? Every church has its own special ideas about what it means to be saved -- but the many churches around are denominations of the abominable or Catholic Church, churches of the devil. Our church stresses that to be a priest and be saved you must have the priesthood passed down from Jesus Christ bestowed by the laying of hands on the head.

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, Raymond Ellis said:

e many churches around are denominations of the abominable or Catholic Church, churches of the devil. 

Against the rules:

"Mocking the beliefs of others"

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66537-board-guidelines-update-please-review-before-posting/

And wrong:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/01/warring-against-the-saints-of-god?lang=eng

"More often, some have suggested that the Roman Catholic church might be the great and abominable church of Nephi 13. This is also untenable, primarily because Roman Catholicism as we know it did not yet exist when the crimes described by Nephi were being committed. In fact, the term Roman Catholic only makes sense after A.D. 1054 when it is used to distinguish the Western, Latin-speaking Orthodox church that followed the bishop of Rome from the Eastern, Greek-speaking Orthodox church that followed the bishop of Constantinople....

Actually, no single known historical church, denomination, or set of believers meets all the requirements for the great and abominable church: it must have formed among the Gentiles; it must have edited and controlled the distribution of the scriptures; it must have slain the Saints of God, including the Apostles and prophets; it must be in league with civil governments and use their police power to enforce its religious views; it must have dominion over all the earth; it must pursue great wealth and sexual immorality; and it must last until close to the end of the world. No single denomination or system of beliefs fits the entire description. Rather, the role of Babylon has been played by many different agencies, ideologies, and churches in many different times. It should be clear that the great and abominable church that Nephi described in chapter 13 is not the same historical entity that crucified the Savior or that martyred Joseph and Hyrum."

Edited April 10, 2018 by Calm

[The Nehor]

36 minutes ago, Raymond Ellis said:

Speaking in tongues is only a good thing to do if there are foreign people around you can understand what your saying -- as happened on the day of Pentecost. But is speaking in tongues a sign that you are saved? Every church has its own special ideas about what it means to be saved -- but the many churches around are denominations of the abominable or Catholic Church, churches of the devil. Our church stresses that to be a priest and be saved you must have the priesthood passed down from Jesus Christ bestowed by the laying of hands on the head.

[CV75]

On 11/13/2017 at 1:50 AM, Anakin7 said:

they must speak in tongue's as evidence of there salvation

A new inspired couplet: Regarding this gift, I plead the fifth.