The Foundation of our Faith

[Rivers]

I recently overheard a couple of co-workers talking.  One mentioned she became disillusioned with the church.  She then started talking about the whole rock-in-the-hat that thing. I've always had a difficult time understanding why such a trivial matter bothers some people so much.  I suppose its the more about feeling lied to by the church than anything.  As for me, I always go back to Helaman 5:12 which states that Christ should be the foundation of our faith.  Could the church have been a lot better about openness with its history? Absolutely.  But our faith shouldn't be in a church.  It should be in Christ.  Do we put too much emphasis on faith in the church and its leaders?  Do we say "I know this church is true" too much? 

 

[Rivers]

Oops.  I meant to post in General Discussions.

[poptart]

Here's a question,  do the LDS ever look beyond the book of mormon?  Martin Luther argued solar scriptora,  technically he was right.   Thing is, you need a governing body of some kind, else it all falls apart.  Look at the evangelicals,  their churches cone and go all the time while others such as the Catholic church have stood the test of time.  To be fair, the LDS church is doing a fine job of sticking around, I'd be asking things like what are they doing right.  

On that note, the whole church is true thing always annoyed me.

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, poptart said:

Here's a question,  do the LDS ever look beyond the book of mormon?  Martin Luther argued solar scriptora,  technically he was right.   Thing is, you need a governing body of some kind, else it all falls apart.  

Sola scriptura is critically flawed.  God is a living God who still speaks to man.

2 hours ago, poptart said:

 To be fair, the LDS church is doing a fine job of sticking around, I'd be asking things like what are they doing right.  

2 hours ago, poptart said:

On that note, the whole church is true thing always annoyed me.

I'm sorry that it annoys you.  I find it to be a simple statement of fact (like gravity), but if you need a hug I'll give you one gladly.

[Jane_Doe]

4 hours ago, Rivers said:

I recently overheard a couple of co-workers talking.  One mentioned she became disillusioned with the church.  She then started talking about the whole rock-in-the-hat that thing. I've always had a difficult time understanding why such a trivial matter bothers some people so much.  I suppose its the more about feeling lied to by the church than anything.  As for me, I always go back to Helaman 5:12 which states that Christ should be the foundation of our faith.  Could the church have been a lot better about openness with its history? Absolutely. 

Amen.

4 hours ago, Rivers said:

  But our faith shouldn't be in a church.  It should be in Christ.  Do we put too much emphasis on faith in the church and its leaders?  Do we say "I know this church is true" too much? 

I would say that our faith should be founded on Christ and His message, not in the messengers.  Yes, the messengers work for Him-- it IS His Church.  But still, messengers are flawed and make mistakes.  I find that some people really struggle with the idea that a leader makes a mistake (whether a local or international leader) and that doesn't mean Christ is false.  I see the church leadership really pushing that idea, but it's hard for individuals to hear (like you co-worker).  The idea of the prophet is a "man of God" is hard.   I hope/think the church membership at large will come to understand it more in time, but it's going to take time.

[poptart]

17 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Sola scriptura is critically flawed.  God is a living God who still speaks to man.

I'm sorry that it annoys you.  I find it to be a simple statement of fact (like gravity), but if you need a hug I'll give you one gladly.

It just has that aura of towing the party line.  Ohh look at me, I get to live in a nice suburb and have a decient middle class life, no way am I going to jepordize it.  Reminds me of the prosperity gospel too much.

[Jane_Doe]

55 minutes ago, poptart said:

It just has that aura of towing the party line.  Ohh look at me, I get to live in a nice suburb and have a decient middle class life, no way am I going to jepordize it.  Reminds me of the prosperity gospel too much.

That's a big accusation, and I don't feel it's warranted.  

[poptart]

13 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

That's a big accusation, and I don't feel it's warranted.  

Ok, then what does it mean when someone says the church is true?  Why just them?  Mind explaining it to me in detail?  If i'm wrong on it, i'll admit it.  Sorry, did not mean to offend, the old ward I visited did have a few people who were quite well off and believed the allmighty favored them, hence the wealth.  I was in shared housing and was almost homeless, also in outpatient mental healthcare.  I honestly wonder if I was to take another look at it now that i'm a bit better off mentally if I would see something else.

Edited November 12, 2017 by poptart

[Jane_Doe]

3 hours ago, poptart said:

Ok, then what does it mean when someone says the church is true?  Why just them?  Mind explaining it to me in detail?  If i'm wrong on it, i'll admit it.  Sorry, did not mean to offend, the old ward I visited did have a few people who were quite well off and believed the allmighty favored them, hence the wealth.  I was in shared housing and was almost homeless, also in outpatient mental healthcare.  I honestly wonder if I was to take another look at it now that i'm a bit better off mentally if I would see something else.

Saying that you believe this is the True Church, means you believe that this is Christ's Church, is guided by His priesthood, and teaches His Truths.  Other churches many teach some truths (and that they certainly do), but also don't teach some truths and are not guided by His prophets. 

God does bless those who follow Him, but that does NOT mean "God will give you money".  The greatest gift of the Spirit is peace and love, not dollars.  I myself am a student living well below poverty line.  

[Calm]

8 hours ago, poptart said:

It just has that aura of towing the party line.  Ohh look at me, I get to live in a nice suburb and have a decient middle class life, no way am I going to jepordize it.  Reminds me of the prosperity gospel too much.

I think when one hears it stripped down to a one liner it can definitely sound trite and programmed, kind of like just hearing "I love you" and then the other walks away and it feels like they just said it because they felt it was expected of them, not because they put a lot of thought into it.

But just because sometimes people take short cuts with how they say things doesn't always mean the depths of commitment, thought, life long experience processed over decades to come to a living, vibrant belief aren't there just as much as when someone takes an hour or more to express their thoughts and feelings.  If you don't see people a lot, especially in rare moments where there is little pressing on them or distractions, you may not have the opportunity to see the depths of their feelings and commitment and ideas open up in full glory.

I can very much understand the holding back, difficulty in trust, and skepticism that comes when other people don't appear to be putting much personal thought into what they are saying and doing, but responding more by auto-pilot (hope that is understandable, it means superficial and habitual)...it is much less energy demanding, but it can lead to missing important things, include connecting with others.  When people have a huge list of demands on their time day in and day out, routines help us survive...but we need to be careful we don't program ourselves out of deep connection with others and with our faith, hopes, and dreams.

[The Nehor]

On 11/12/2017 at 10:49 AM, poptart said:

It just has that aura of towing the party line.  Ohh look at me, I get to live in a nice suburb and have a decient middle class life, no way am I going to jepordize it.  Reminds me of the prosperity gospel too much.

Many do that without the gospel.

[Guest]

On November 12, 2017 at 6:31 AM, Rivers said:

I recently overheard a couple of co-workers talking.  One mentioned she became disillusioned with the church.  She then started talking about the whole rock-in-the-hat that thing. I've always had a difficult time understanding why such a trivial matter bothers some people so much.  I suppose its the more about feeling lied to by the church than anything.  As for me, I always go back to Helaman 5:12 which states that Christ should be the foundation of our faith.  Could the church have been a lot better about openness with its history? Absolutely.  But our faith shouldn't be in a church.  It should be in Christ.  Do we put too much emphasis on faith in the church and its leaders?  Do we say "I know this church is true" too much? 

 

One thing important to note concerning foundation of "our" Faith is the many eyewitness accounts of the translation methods that Joseph used. There are accounts where, Emma Smith, Oliver Cowdrey and others sat and wrote as he dictated scripture, from the plates.  Also the accounts of those who saw the plates, the "Seer Stone" (whatever that was) was merely one method used. The foundation of the Church however, is the Lord Jesus Christ, this is not nor ever been the Church of Joseph Smith. If it were, it would have died with the Prophet Joseph Smith. It has endured because Christ has always been our foundation, the scriptures, along with the Pristhood are the bricks and mortar that stand upon them. 

The more interesting part of the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, is that they all had witnesses as to how they came to be. Because of these witnesses, we are able to debate these issues in Church or on a debate forum, such as this. However, the Bible, (I believe 66 books, or 71, in the Catholic Bible, along with the 15 or so, lost books of the Bible), has few eyewitnesses of any kind. In the OT, many Prophets would emerge from isolation, or the wilderness saying that God has spoken to him (or them). These were men of great faith, courage and stature, yet in so many instances, they were rejected and killed. In large part, due to the fact the fact they had no evidence, no witnesses, only there account of what happened, and the wickedness of other men. An example can be found in Jeremiah 1: 1-5, where God would speak, one on one, with no others to hear. 

Despite the many witnesses, Joseph labored under the heavy burden of the events seen only by him, and the persecution that came with it. In fact his many revelations from the Lord, brought about in the end, his life.