jospeh the con man?

[LittleNipper]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

That doesn't make any sense, considering the accusations of 'saved by works' that you have made against the LDS church.  Using your definition, nothing the LDS church believes is required for salvation is a work at all because it's all done by those who love the Lord and want to understand His commandments better.

I believe that Mormons  (you included) believe one MUST belong to the "right " church in order to be fully "Christianize". Among those things is getting married in the Temple (eternal marriage) --- I do not hold to this nor does any group other than yourselves. That doesn't mean a loss of salvation, it does represent a clouding of the salvation process. You hold to water baptism for the dead. You seem to believe this because you seem to believe that without such an individual misses out on the Celestial Kingdom. I believe that the Bible is clear that GOD looks on the heart and knows His sheep without "denominational" interjections. I believe Joseph Smith really wanted control and sought after being in charge. Nothing I've ever read about him indicates that he was a humble person. In fact I can see where he  felt  that humility was a manifestation of weakness. And so like Roman Catholicism there is a drive for the grandiose and the pretentious.  

If anything makes Mormonism what it is today, it was Joseph Smith and his promotion of his book. No prophet of the Bible advertised so much to promote what they wrote. They revealed what they were inspired and then the LORD did the rest. And that fact alone is enough for me to question Joseph Smith's motivation.

Edited November 16, 2017 by LittleNipper

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Either way of thinking about authority can be defended using the Bible.

Oh, I agree with that. One can take the Bible and use it to "prove" a myriad of contradictory things.

Glenn

[bluebell]

51 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

I believe that Mormons  (you included) believe one MUST belong to the "right " church in order to be fully "Christianize".

I don't believe that, and that's not what the church teaches.  (Besides that, I'm not sure what Christianize means).

Quote

Among those things is getting married in the Temple (eternal marriage) --- I do not hold to this nor does any group other than yourselves. That doesn't mean a loss of salvation, it does represent a clouding of the salvation process. You hold to water baptism for the dead. You seem to believe this because you seem to believe that without such an individual misses out on the Celestial Kingdom. I believe that the Bible is clear that GOD looks on the heart and knows His sheep without "denominational" interjections. I believe Joseph Smith really wanted control and sought after being in charge. Nothing I've ever read about him indicates that he was a humble person. In fact I can see where he  felt  that humility was a manifestation of weakness. And so like Roman Catholicism there is a drive for the grandiose and the pretentious. 

These ordinances (temple marriage, baptism, etc.) are not about denominational interjections.  Baptism, for example, is the gate leads to the strait and narrow path.  All men must enter the path by the gate to gain eternal life because it is through baptism that we covenant with Christ and access His saving grace.  

Quote

If anything makes Mormonism what it is today, it was Joseph Smith and his promotion of his book. No prophet of the Bible advertised so much to promote what they wrote. They revealed what they were inspired and then the LORD did the rest. And that fact alone is enough for me to question Joseph Smith's motivation.

This doesn't make any sense either.  The fact that JS believed in the importance of missionary work makes you question his motives?  Jesus Himself said that His followers should 'advertise' His gospel to all nations.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

I believe that Mormons  (you included) believe one MUST belong to the "right " church in order to be fully "Christianize". Among those things is getting married in the Temple (eternal marriage) --- I do not hold to this nor does any group other than yourselves. That doesn't mean a loss of salvation, it does represent a clouding of the salvation process.

According to your theology, it doesn't really matter if our beliefs cloud the salvation process or not, so long as believing in Jesus Christ is part of the process.  In the end, we will be saved for our belief and it doesn't really matter what else we believe or do with our lives beyond believing in Jesus Christ.  So isn't your problem that you have with the LDS church an incredibly insignificant technicality in the grand scheme of things?

If it makes us happy and does not strip us of salvation, what is your beef with us exactly?  Our teachings lead people to a deep and profound, life changing, believe in Jesus Christ.  Isn't that ALL that matters for salvation?   In the end, does it really matter if we believe that works come first or second, so long as we believe?  According to you, it shouldn't, so why do you bother us?

[kiwi57]

3 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Salvation comes first and then the works begin. That is the Holy Spirit working in one's life. One must not believe that the cart comes before the horse.

Why not? Does believing that the cart comes before the horse imperil our salvation?

If so, then doesn't that mean that we are saved through faith in Christ - alone - and by not believing that the cart comes before the horse?

[Calm]

3 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Salvation comes first and then the works begin. That is the Holy Spirit working in one's life. One must not believe that the cart comes before the horse.

Why not?

Add-on:  lol, what  kiwi said....

Edited November 16, 2017 by Calm

[pogi]

5 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

I believe Joseph Smith really wanted control and sought after being in charge. Nothing I've ever read about him indicates that he was a humble person. In fact I can see where he  felt  that humility was a manifestation of weakness. And so like Roman Catholicism there is a drive for the grandiose and the pretentious.  

What books have you read about Joseph Smith?

Here is one quick reference to a non-Mormon description of Joseph Smith:

Quote

 

Stephen H. Webb wrote:

By any measurement, Joseph Smith was a remarkable person. His combination of organizational acumen with spiritual originality and personal decorum and modesty is rare in the history of religion...For someone so charismatic, he was exceptionally humble, even ordinary, and he delegated authority with the wisdom of a man looking far into the future for the well-being of his followers.

 

CFR that Joseph viewed humility as a manifestation of weakness. 

If Joseph was all about grandiose power and absolute control, why would he organize an institution with built-in checks and balances?  In the book Rough Stone Rolling, Bushmen shows references of how Joseph purposely organized the church in a way that even the President of the Church was subject to church courts.  Joseph was brought to stand before church courts to be judged on several different occasions with different accusers.  If Joseph wanted all control and power, why would he make himself subject to church courts.  That kind of deflates your argument.

5 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

If anything makes Mormonism what it is today, it was Joseph Smith and his promotion of his book. No prophet of the Bible advertised so much to promote what they wrote. They revealed what they were inspired and then the LORD did the rest. And that fact alone is enough for me to question Joseph Smith's motivation.

 Joseph Smith promoting the Book of Mormon is akin to William Tyndale promoting the Bible. Joseph did not write the Book, he translated it! 

 

Edited November 16, 2017 by pogi

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Salvation comes first and then the works begin. That is the Holy Spirit working in one's life. One must not believe that the cart comes before the horse.

That is what Mormons believe too.
The problem is the traditional Christian comes to a dead stop at the first step of salvation and refuses to go any further despite Christ's teachings.

AoF 4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Then what?  The works as you put it.
Why?  To show obedience to God that he may bless us with blessings beyond salvation as part of being joint heirs with Jesus Christ.

[Jane_Doe]

5 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

I believe that Mormons  (you included) believe one MUST belong to the "right " church in order to be fully "Christianize".

Ah, so that misunderstanding is the source of some of your confusion.  Let me help clarify for you--

LDS folks 100% acknowledge that you're a Christian, even though you don't belong to the LDS church.  "You're a Christian" is simply a statement of fact, and your very real relationship with Christ is something to be celebrated.  Now, that being said there are huge disagreements of theological matters within Christendom, as we've discussed before.  By simple logical not all of these churches can be teaching 100% Truth (else they would all agree).  You yourself believe some churches teach more Truthful doctrine than others- hence why you are a fundamentalist and not a Catholic (for example).  Likewise do we: we believe that the LDS church teaches the most Truthful doctrine and is the His church.  

Does that make sense?

LDS aren't trying un-"Christianize"-ing you (whatever that means).  Again your relationship with Christ is to be celebrated.    Do we disagree on some things?  Obviously, but your right to believe and worship what you may is so important to us it's literally declared in the Articles of Faith.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[Avatar4321]

Found another interesting account from the Prophets mother

 

Quote

The Prophet’s mother, Lucy Mack Smith, recalled: “Joseph stood on the shore when his father came out of the water, and as he took him by the hand he cried out, ‘… I have lived to see my father baptized into the true church of Jesus Christ,’ and he covered his face in his father’s bosom and wept aloud for joy as did Joseph of old when he beheld his father coming up into the land of Egypt.”

 

Now, if Joseph was perpetuating a con, why would baptizing his father make him weep?

[JLHPROF]

On 11/17/2017 at 11:07 PM, Avatar4321 said:

Now, if Joseph was perpetuating a con, why would baptizing his father make him weep?

Anyone who claims Joseph was a con man is ignorant.  You may not believe what he taught or did, but he and his followers were so clearly sincere.

We have innumerable journal entries, letters, sermons, testimonies etc from all levels of the Church to spiritual witnnesses and profession of deeply felt beliefs.  And we have sufferings in some cases to the level of death at all levels of the Church.

True or not there is no sign of a con.

[cdowis]

On 11/19/2017 at 11:42 AM, JLHPROF said:

True or not there is no sign of a con.

The critic is faced with the task to explain his motivation for starting his church, and "con man" is low hanging fruit in that quest.  Any shallow, superficial examination could be tuned as evidence to his desire for money through deception.  There is so much evidence, in their minds, for this claim.

According to one brilliant individual, he was able to convince his followers to sell their property and  give the proceeds  to the church (which, of course,  ended up in his hands).

Edited November 22, 2017 by cdowis

[Meerkat]

On 11/10/2017 at 4:29 PM, bluebell said:

The evidence doesn't seem to fit with his motivation being to purposefully deceive people for his own gain.  He lived a really difficult life.   Even if sex was the gain he was looking for, there is little evidence to suggest that he got much if any of that from his other wives.  He was beaten, tar and feathered, had a horrible reputation outside of mormons, was in prison (in squalor and cold) for months at a time, and financially poor for most of his life.

And then he was killed.

What evidence is there of a con? 

Add to that his translation of the Book of Mormon at a young age (filled with wisdom beyond his years,) He designed and had built at least two Significant cities at the time including excavating a malarial swamp.  He sent missionaries out into the world with a message so compelling people left their families, their jobs, their homelands to travel to the USA to be united with the Saints... a message so significant the members trudged west in the dead of winter, many in worn out shoes, some with cloth wrapped feet, rejoicing.  All the while, Joseph was hounded by trumped up charges, forced to defend himself in court dozens of times.  

Millions of remarkably happy and successful people credit Joseph Smith and his teachings about Jesus Christ as a source of their joy.  Those people Will gladly testify to anyone who will listen that they know Joseph Smith was a true prophet.  They love him.  And no matter what disparaging history his detractors focus on, his followers leave those things in the Lord's hands to explain at some future time because they have experienced the beautiful fruits of the religion that Can't be taken or explained away.  And many will testify in the depths of their personal trials of their joy in Christ, and the message of the Restoration.

Those stories are but the very tip of the iceberg of why people believed and followed him.  He was truly the Lord's Prophet of the necessary and important Restoration.  The Holy Ghost testifies of that truth.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Meerkat