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An eyewitness account of Joseph Smith at Nauvoo


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2 hours ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

Human beings are certainly complex and one act good or bad doesn't give the entire picture of a particular person. However, one bad act or several, depending on what they are, can certainly tarnish the good that a particular person does.

In that you are correct, because it seems that so many are more eager to tear down than to build up. A crab type of mentality.

Glenn

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3 hours ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

Human beings are certainly complex and one act good or bad doesn't give the entire picture of a particular person. However, one bad act or several, depending on what they are, can certainly tarnish the good that a particular person does.

True. But we all have bad acts in our life. That's why we need the Savior.

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Thanks for sharing Scott.

I do appreciate this in that it helps explain the complex person that was Joseph Smith.  He was many things, of course, and towards the end of his life suggested that no one knows his history--that its hard to believe to the point of admitting he would not believe it himself if he did not experience it.  Of course we well know that there have been billions upon billions of charitable instances comparable to the one described here by many billions of people.  I don't know that this alone puts him out there as a valuable exception to humanity.  But, with that said, as I indicated, he was many things in his 38 years on earth.  He was enough that he is now venerated and honored by many millions of people, even if there remains many sworn objectors. 

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9 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Of course we well know that there have been billions upon billions of charitable instances comparable to the one described here by many billions of people.  I don't know that this alone puts him out there as a valuable exception to humanity. 

D&C would say otherwise - "Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for
the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it."

He tried to do some positive things but I feel his most significant sin was when he started teaching about a man who
became a God (and Heavenly Father) of our earth.  To some, this would constitute worshipping a false god.

Jim

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On 11/5/2017 at 10:16 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

Saw this post on Dan Peterson’s blog, Sic et Non, and was so impressed by it I had an impulse to share it here. 

In its own way, it contradicts endeavors to vilify and assassinate the character of the prophet of the Restoration. I fear that some, even among our own people, are so eager to assert his fallibility that they unjustly marginalize his greatness. 

Link:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2017/11/eyewitness-account-joseph-smith-nauvoo.html#disqus_thread

I see this as typical binary thinking when it comes to revered religious leaders.  People want to acknowledge on one hand that these leaders are human and therefore imperfect vessels, but when it comes to pointing out actual flaws then the character defending reveals itself often in ugly ways.  

Joseph Smith was a highly influential, complex and polarizing character.  He had many serious flaws and many incredible traits as well.  I appreciate honest discussion about his attributes, yet unfortunately many people are incapable of a fair and honest appraisal as they are too emotionally invested in binary thinking and that goes for both sides on this issue. 

Edited by hope_for_things
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2 hours ago, Thinking said:

I don't understand how hiring a couple to dig a ditch, then paying them with goods validates his "greatness."

My grandmother put food on the table during the Great Depression by exchanging piano lessons for eggs, chickens, flour, etc. She was great, in my mind.

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9 hours ago, Thinking said:

I don't understand how hiring a couple to dig a ditch, then paying them with goods validates his "greatness."

I think the idea that he overpaid for the Work is what people are going for here. The description of the prophet is probably more valuable in many ways then the events that transpired.

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TLDR: In Nauvoo, Joseph "hired" two jobless immigrant men to dig a ditch near his store.  After finishing, Joseph complimented their work and compensated them with two large pieces of meat and two sacks of flour, a far more generous payment than they felt they deserved.  They had a strong testimony that Joseph was a Prophet.

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11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

My grandmother put food on the table during the Great Depression by exchanging piano lessons for eggs, chickens, flour, etc. She was great, in my mind.

In your example, your grandmother is like the couple that dug the ditch in order to receive food, so it's the couple's greatness that is validated by their willingness to dig the ditch.

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20 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I see this as typical binary thinking when it comes to revered religious leaders.  People want to acknowledge on one hand that these leaders are human and therefore imperfect vessels, but when it comes to pointing out actual flaws then the character defending reveals itself often in ugly ways.  

You mean - like pointing out that the vilified one actually did good things?

Quelle horreur!

20 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Joseph Smith was a highly influential, complex and polarizing character.  He had many serious flaws and many incredible traits as well.  I appreciate honest discussion about his attributes, yet unfortunately many people are incapable of a fair and honest appraisal as they are too emotionally invested in binary thinking and that goes for both sides on this issue. 

And that "binary thinking" shows up in various ways.

Such as indignantly protesting when someone points out something good about someone.

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15 hours ago, Thinking said:

I don't understand how hiring a couple to dig a ditch, then paying them with goods validates his "greatness."

You don't understand how giving someone a job, and then paying them with food greater than the value of the labour performed, undermines the largely un-"Thinking" assumption that Joseph was just in it for the money?

Okay.

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12 minutes ago, kiwi57 said:

You don't understand how giving someone a job, and then paying them with food greater than the value of the labour performed, undermines the largely un-"Thinking" assumption that Joseph was just in it for the money?

Okay.

And he administered charity in a manner that allowed the young men to retain their dignity with the opportunity to work for it.

 

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1 hour ago, kiwi57 said:

You don't understand how giving someone a job, and then paying them with food greater than the value of the labour performed, undermines the largely un-"Thinking" assumption that Joseph was just in it for the money?

Okay.

I wrote nothing about Joseph being in it for the money. I didn't even criticize his act. All I did was dispute that this situation validates his "greatness."

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1 hour ago, kiwi57 said:

You mean - like pointing out that the vilified one actually did good things?

Quelle horreur!

And that "binary thinking" shows up in various ways.

Such as indignantly protesting when someone points out something good about someone.

Of course he did good things.  He did a lot of bad things too.  Actually I don't think Joseph is a very good person to try and emulate from a morality perspective.  He did many quite questionable things, but he was not a one dimensional person.  

I agree about those kinds of protests on all sides of issues, I think we need to look at evidence, be honest about it, and consider it in a dispassionate way. 

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4 hours ago, Thinking said:

In your example, your grandmother is like the couple that dug the ditch in order to receive food, so it's the couple's greatness that is validated by their willingness to dig the ditch.

Yes, and everyone benefitted from the exchange. I kinda like barter.

 

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2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Of course he did good things.  He did a lot of bad things too.  Actually I don't think Joseph is a very good person to try and emulate from a morality perspective.  He did many quite questionable things, but he was not a one dimensional person.  

I agree about those kinds of protests on all sides of issues, I think we need to look at evidence, be honest about it, and consider it in a dispassionate way. 

On his worst day, Joseph was a better man than his critics, past and present. 

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31 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

That statement makes absolutely no sense.  A critic of Joseph automatically makes him a worse person?  This is what I call an emotionally biased opinion.  

Speaking only for myself, I have never come across any critic of the Prophet who managed to accomplish as much in a lifetime of carping and criticizing as Joseph did in an average month.

Nor have I come across one who comes anywhere near him in questions of character.

 

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10 hours ago, Thinking said:

I wrote nothing about Joseph being in it for the money. I didn't even criticize his act. All I did was dispute that this situation validates his "greatness."

I'm a bit confused. How does pointing out this account undermines how critics portray him as a con man equate to "validating his greatness"? It simply points out how eye witness accounts contradict the con man narrative.

I think it supports strongly that joseph Smith believed what he taught and wasn't trying to con anyone.

and if he wasn't a con man, one has to ask how he sincerely believed what he taught if it wasn't true.

I think that's what's interesting about all the witnesses. They believed they saw what they saw. There is no other explanation that makes sense.

too often people want to dismiss him and other witnesses as con men or mistaken to excuse themselves from considering the doctrines

Edited by Avatar4321
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2 hours ago, kiwi57 said:

Speaking only for myself, I have never come across any critic of the Prophet who managed to accomplish as much in a lifetime of carping and criticizing as Joseph did in an average month.

Nor have I come across one who comes anywhere near him in questions of character.

 

Nor have I. 

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