Prophets Before Adam

[Benjamin Seeker]

According to JS' journal, on April 28, 1844, Hyrum Smith preached a sermon I wish I could have heard. Here are JS' notes in full:

Quote

My brother Hyrum Smith preached at the stand in the morning, and among other things said the time will shortly come, that when one man makes another an offender for a word, he shall be cut off from the church of Jesus Christ. There were prophets before Adam, and Joseph has the spirit and power of all the Prophets.

Any ideas where that was headed?

[The Nehor]

Probably ties into Adam-God, Blood Atonement, and explains who Raphael and Metatron are.

[Benjamin Seeker]

21 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Probably ties into Adam-God, Blood Atonement, and explains who Raphael and Metatron are.

Probably.

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

According to JS' journal, on April 28, 1844, Hyrum Smith preached a sermon I wish I could have heard. Here are JS' notes in full:

Any ideas where that was headed?

We know angels are actually men who, like Moroni, are prophets of God. After the fall,  while Adam was in the lone and dreary world, an angel of God (aka a prophetic messenger) appeared to Adam, taught him the gospel and endowed him with a testimony born of the Holy Ghost that Father and the Son live and the Gospel of Christ is true. So a prophetic messenger who knew the Gospel is true before Adam received that sacred knowledge ministered to him on this earth. This prophetic angelic servant may have very well been a saved being from another world, but a prophet of God none the less.

6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.

7 And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth.

8 Wherefore, thou shalt do all that thou doest in the name of the Son, and thou shalt repent and call upon God in the name of the Son forevermore.

9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will. (Moses 5)

Edited October 19, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Benjamin Seeker]

28 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

We know angels are actually men who, like Moroni, are prophets of God. After the fall,  while Adam was in the lone and dreary world, an angel of God (aka a prophetic messenger) appeared to Adam, taught him the gospel and endowed him with a testimony born of the Holy Ghost that Father and the Son live and the Gospel of Christ is true. So a prophetic messenger who knew the Gospel is true before Adam received that sacred knowledge ministered to him on this earth. This prophetic angelic servant may have very well been a saved being from another world, but a prophet of God none the less.

6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.

7 And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth.

8 Wherefore, thou shalt do all that thou doest in the name of the Son, and thou shalt repent and call upon God in the name of the Son forevermore.

9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will. (Moses 5)

Maybe that explains it, but maybe not. I believe that at one point JS taught that all angels who minister this world pertain to. In other words, they are prior or pre-earth-life inhabitants of earth, which would rule out ressurected prophet messengers from previous worlds.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said:

......................................................

6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.

7 And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, .................................... (Moses 5)

A key phrase from the temple, which tells us yet again of the powerful symbolism present in our esoteric rites.

[Bobbieaware]

6 hours ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

Maybe that explains it, but maybe not. I believe that at one point JS taught that all angels who minister this world pertain to. In other words, they are prior or pre-earth-life inhabitants of earth, which would rule out ressurected prophet messengers from previous worlds.

A possible answer is the angelic messenger could have been one of the spirits destined to take a body on this earth.

But the most likely explanation is that Hyrum actually said something like this: "There were prophets going back to Adam, but Joseph has the spirit of all the prophets." In fact, in the History of the Church the prophet's recorded words are rendered as "there were prophets before, but Joseph has the spirit of all the prophets." So the rather strange one-time reference to there being prophets before Adam simply seems to be a case of imprecise language when the prophet first recorded Hyrum's words in his journal. The central element and focus of Hyrum's statement is that Joseph possessed the spirit all the prophets, not that there may have been prophets before Adam.  I don't take this anomalous journal entry too seriously because the concept of pre-Adamic prophets was never a featured teaching of the Church..

Edited October 19, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Benjamin Seeker]

51 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

A possible answer is the angelic messenger could have been one of the spirits destined to take a body on this earth.

But the most likely explanation is that Hyrum actually said something like this: "There were prophets going back to Adam, but Joseph has the spirit of all the prophets." In fact, in the History of the Church the prophet's recorded words are rendered as "there were prophets before, but Joseph has the spirit of all the prophets." So the rather strange one-time reference to there being prophets before Adam simply seems to be a case of imprecise language when the prophet first recorded Hyrum's words in his journal. The central element and focus of Hyrum's statement is that Joseph possessed the spirit all the prophets, not that there may have been prophets before Adam.  I don't take this anomalous journal entry too seriously because the concept of pre-Adamic prophets was never a featured teaching of the Church..

The current wording you mention was an editorial change made long after JS's death (because why publish what actually got written in JS' journal right? That's just nuts...)

[CV75]

9 hours ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

According to JS' journal, on April 28, 1844, Hyrum Smith preached a sermon I wish I could have heard. Here are JS' notes in full:

Any ideas where that was headed?

Maybe it was meant to convey that there are prophets more preeminent than Adam in the sense that subsequent dispensations introduced more fulness into the earthly kngdom through their service. Or there were "noble and great ones" more intelligent than Adam who may not have served the Lord's purposes well in the Garden of Eden but who were better placed to be more effective in later dispensations. And of course Joseph Smith ranking highest among those.

[Bobbieaware]

52 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

The current wording you mention was an editorial change made long after JS's death (because why publish what actually got written in JS' journal right? That's just nuts...)

The statement was surely edited in the History of the Church because it was decided there was no need to include an obscure and confusing reference to an idea that has never been taught in the Church before nor since. Do you realize the idea of a prophet existing in mortality before Adam contradicts the prophet Joseph Smith's own clear and repeated teachings on the subject?  Can you find another quote where a leader of the Church asserts that there were prophets who existed in mortality before Adam? 

“Adam … was the first man, who is spoken of in Daniel as being the ‘Ancient of Days,’ … the first and oldest of all, the great, grand progenitor … the first and father of all, not only by progeny, but the first to hold the spiritual blessings, to whom was made known the plan of ordinances for the salvation of his posterity unto the end, and to whom Christ was first revealed, and through whom Christ has been revealed from heaven, and will continue to be revealed from henceforth. Adam holds the keys of the dispensation of the fullness of times; i.e., the dispensation of all the times have been and will be revealed through him from the beginning to Christ, and from Christ to the end of the dispensations that are to be revealed.

“These angels are under the direction of Michael or Adam, who acts under the direction of the Lord.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 167–68.)

Edited October 19, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[RevTestament]

14 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

The statement was surely edited in the History of the Church because it was decided there was no need to include an obscure and confusing reference to an idea that has never been taught in the Church before nor since. Do you realize the idea of a prophet existing in mortality before Adam contradicts the prophet Joseph Smith's own clear and repeated teachings on the subject?  Can you find another quote where a leader of the Church asserts that there were prophets who existed in mortality before Adam? 

“Adam … was the first man, who is spoken of in Daniel as being the ‘Ancient of Days,’ … the first and oldest of all, the great, grand progenitor … the first and father of all, not only by progeny, but the first to hold the spiritual blessings, to whom was made known the plan of ordinances for the salvation of his posterity unto the end, and to whom Christ was first revealed, and through whom Christ has been revealed from heaven, and will continue to be revealed from henceforth. Adam holds the keys of the dispensation of the fullness of times; i.e., the dispensation of all the times have been and will be revealed through him from the beginning to Christ, and from Christ to the end of the dispensations that are to be revealed.

“These angels are under the direction of Michael or Adam, who acts under the direction of the Lord.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 167–68.)

Oops, you let it slip that JS' dispensation is not the final dispensation the Church teaches....

in fact it is the sixth.

[Glenn101]

9 hours ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

According to JS' journal, on April 28, 1844, Hyrum Smith preached a sermon I wish I could have heard. Here are JS' notes in full:

Any ideas where that was headed?

Those were not Joseph's hand written notes. Check the actual source. Whatever the case this is a blip.

[Bobbieaware]

9 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Oops, you let it slip that JS' dispensation is not the final dispensation the Church teaches....

in fact it is the sixth.

The Dispensations of the Gospel:

1) Adam 2) Enoch  3) Noah 4) Abraham 5) Moses 6) Jesus 7) Joseph Smith -- aka The Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. What makes you believe the 7th Dispensations is actually the 6th?

[RevTestament]

scripture please

[hope_for_things]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Probably ties into Adam-God, Blood Atonement, and explains who Raphael and Metatron are.

 

[Bobbieaware]

43 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

scripture please

I'm surprised you ask. This is basic Restored Gospel stuff. From the LDS Bible Dictionary:

A gospel dispensation is a period of time in which the Lord has at least one authorized servant on the earth who bears the keys of the holy priesthood.

Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith, and others have each started a new gospel dispensation. When the Lord organizes a dispensation, the gospel is revealed anew so that the people of that dispensation do not have to depend on past dispensations for knowledge of the plan of salvation. The dispensation begun by Joseph Smith is known as the “dispensation of the fulness of times." 

The "others" mentioned who also initiated Gospel Dispensations are people like Lehi and the brother of Jared.

[RevTestament]

20 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

I'm surprised you ask. This is basic Restored Gospel stuff. From the LDS Bible Dictionary:

A gospel dispensation is a period of time in which the Lord has at least one authorized servant on the earth who bears the keys of the holy priesthood.

Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith, and others have each started a new gospel dispensation. When the Lord organizes a dispensation, the gospel is revealed anew so that the people of that dispensation do not have to depend on past dispensations for knowledge of the plan of salvation. The dispensation begun by Joseph Smith is known as the “dispensation of the fulness of times." 

The "others" mentioned who also initiated Gospel Dispensations are people like Lehi and the brother of Jared.

Is it? Why do LDS have so much trouble understanding future tense?

Doctrine and Covenants 121:31

31 All the times of their revolutions, all the appointed days, months, and years, and all the days of their days, months, and years, and all their ^aglories, laws, and set times, shall be revealed in the days of the ^bdispensation of the fulness of times—

Doctrine and Covenants 112:30-32

30 For unto you, the ^aTwelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your ^bcounselors and your leaders, is the ^cpower of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time,  

13 Unto whom I have ^acommitted the ^bkeys of my kingdom, and a ^cdispensation of the ^dgospel for the ^elast times; and for the ^ffulness of times, in the which I will gather together in ^gone all things, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth;

Doctrine and Covenants 112:30-32

30 For unto you, the ^aTwelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your ^bcounselors and your leaders, is the ^cpower of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time, in the which is the dispensation of the ^dfulness of times,

Doctrine and Covenants 128:18

18 I might have rendered a ^aplainer translation to this, but it is sufficiently plain to suit my purpose as it stands. It is sufficient to know, in this case, that the earth will be smitten with a ^bcurse unless there is a welding ^clink of some kind or other between the fathers and the ^dchildren, upon some subject or other—and behold what is that subject? It is the ^ebaptism for the dead. For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the ^ffulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time. And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the ^gfoundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent, shall be revealed unto ^hbabes and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times.

Joseph received the keys for the dispensation of the last days. Why does every scripture on the dispensation of the fulness of times distinguish itself from the last days? The things to be revealed are not being revealed in "this" dispensation but in the dispensation of the fulness of times... They shall be revealed... The dispensation of the fulness of times is about to be ushered in. In his opinion piece of 128 he even states that the hidden things will be revealed in the dispensation of the fulness of times which is "beginning to be ushered in" and that this dispensation is the one which will be the fulness of times. Going back to your first post, who reveals these dispensations? Adam through the Lord apparently since he was the first dispensation head. Did Adam stand up per Daniel 12 in the day of Joseph Smith?

Doctrine and Covenants 124:41

41 For I deign to ^areveal unto my church things which have been kept ^bhid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the ^cfulness of times.

Again we see these things are not yet revealed but will be revealed in the dispensation of the fulness of times.

Doctrine and Covenants 110:12,16

12 After this, ^aElias appeared, and committed the ^bdispensation of the ^cgospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all ^dgenerations after us should be ^eblessed.

...

16 Therefore, the ^akeys of this ^bdispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful ^cday of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Joseph received a gospel for the dispensation of the fulness of times, but the Church has not seen it nor entered in to that dispensation because it had not arrived yet. That was to usher it in, and now that it is here, the Church says but...

[RevTestament]

Enoch was not the head of a dispensation. He lived righteously under the dispensation of the covenant given through Adam. 

Moses was not the head of a dispensation. He lived righteously under the dispensation of the covenant given through Abraham, and restored to Israel through him from Jethro.

[Benjamin Seeker]

2 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Those were not Joseph's hand written notes. Check the actual source. Whatever the case this is a blip.

 

2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

The statement was surely edited in the History of the Church because it was decided there was no need to include an obscure and confusing reference to an idea that has never been taught in the Church before nor since. Do you realize the idea of a prophet existing in mortality before Adam contradicts the prophet Joseph Smith's own clear and repeated teachings on the subject?  Can you find another quote where a leader of the Church asserts that there were prophets who existed in mortality before Adam? 

“Adam … was the first man, who is spoken of in Daniel as being the ‘Ancient of Days,’ … the first and oldest of all, the great, grand progenitor … the first and father of all, not only by progeny, but the first to hold the spiritual blessings, to whom was made known the plan of ordinances for the salvation of his posterity unto the end, and to whom Christ was first revealed, and through whom Christ has been revealed from heaven, and will continue to be revealed from henceforth. Adam holds the keys of the dispensation of the fullness of times; i.e., the dispensation of all the times have been and will be revealed through him from the beginning to Christ, and from Christ to the end of the dispensations that are to be revealed.

“These angels are under the direction of Michael or Adam, who acts under the direction of the Lord.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 167–68.)

I'm aware that Joseph had scribes.  For what it's worth, this same entry was published word for word in the Millennial Star sometime during  Brigham Young's reign.

 Remember this is the same time that JS  believed in reincarnation according to the Eliza Snow,  JS taught that the Sons of God who married the daughters of women in Genesis were resurrected beings who broke celestial laws according to George Laub, JS portrayed Adam interacting physically with messengers from God while simultaneously teaching that righteous spirits don't shake hands, Heber Kimball's teaching about multiple mortal probations was approved by JS according to Kimball, and JS taught something akin to Adam-God according to Young. Hyrum's comments fit into this general craziness rather well I think.

[clarkgoble]

12 hours ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

According to JS' journal, on April 28, 1844, Hyrum Smith preached a sermon I wish I could have heard. Here are JS' notes in full:

Any ideas where that was headed?

I don't think he meant pre-adamites of the sort say Nibley accepted. Rather I suspect it was the idea picked up by Brigham that there were multiple creations on this earth. The so-called catastrophic creation model where this world was made out of older worlds. There were always problems with that such as reconciling it with the idea that this earth becomes the celestial kingdom. Although truthfully it's hard to know given how limited our knowledge of things in Nauvoo actually is. 

Of course the idea of pre-Adamites predates Mormonism. Even back in the medieval period people were aware of the problem of very old ruins and the date Jews and Christians typically gave for Adam's living. Typically ages from India habitation were raised. Yehuda Halevi's Kitab al Khazari discusses one such debate from around 1140. Maimonides also discusses it in The Guide for the Perplexed. The typical apologetic was that Indians weren't trustworthy so believers could dismiss dating claims.

If you look at the traditions these Jews were disputing in the 12th century it typically was the idea of pre-Adamites living in India and Adam actually coming from India. 

Once you hit the period of modernism Bruno argues Africans were different from Jews and were pre-Adamites. The major work on pre-Adamites was from a French writer in the mid-17th century. Much like Bruno there were pretty strong racist overtones. This then became prominent among racists in the 19th century with various "scientists" promoting the views often tied with phrenology. That work became fairly influential and may have indirectly shaped Hyrum's views. Although I'd urge caution since we don't actually know what Hyrum said so it's hard to say what he believed.

If you do a quick google you'll see tons of books from before 1844 that mention pre-adamites including in the Encyclopedia Britannica. And Google of course doesn't really have a ton of old books in its corpus.

While it post-dates Nauvoo, Isabella Duncan's Pre-Adamite Man, Or, The Story of Our Old Planet and Its Inhabitants gives a reasonably good idea of the theology. Angels are pre-adamites. These theories, already popular with American racists especially in the south became extremely popular after the end of the civil war. To be fair there are also non-racist versions of pre-Adamite theory in 19th century America.

Edited October 19, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Bobbieaware]

20 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

 

I'm aware that Joseph had scribes.  For what it's worth, this same entry was published word for word in the Millennial Star sometime during  Brigham Young's reign.

 Remember this is the same time that JS  believed in reincarnation according to the Eliza Snow,  JS taught that the Sons of God who married the daughters of women in Genesis were resurrected beings who broke celestial laws according to George Laub, JS portrayed Adam interacting physically with messengers from God while simultaneously teaching that righteous spirits don't shake hands, Heber Kimball's teaching about multiple mortal probations was approved by JS according to Kimball, and JS taught something akin to Adam-God according to Young. Hyrum's comments fit into this general craziness rather well I think.

Well if you want to veer beyond the standard works and into the fruitless, tumultuous and unedifying world of non-canonized gospel speculations, please be my guest and knock yourself out. I'll likely interact with you on some other thread. 

[Benjamin Seeker]

5 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I don't think he meant pre-adamites of the sort say Nibley accepted. Rather I suspect it was the idea picked up by Brigham that there were multiple creations on this earth. The so-called catastrophic creation model where this world was made out of older worlds. There were always problems with that such as reconciling it with the idea that this earth becomes the celestial kingdom. Although truthfully it's hard to know given how limited our knowledge of things in Nauvoo actually is. 

Of course the idea of pre-Adamites predates Mormonism. Even back in the medieval period people were aware of the problem of very old ruins and the date Jews and Christians typically gave for Adam's living. Typically ages from India habitation were raised. Yehuda Halevi's Kitab al Khazari discusses one such debate from around 1140. Maimonides also discusses it in The Guide for the Perplexed. The typical apologetic was that Indians weren't trustworthy so believers could dismiss dating claims.

If you look at the traditions these Jews were disputing in the 12th century it typically was the idea of pre-Adamites living in India and Adam actually coming from India. 

Once you hit the period of modernism Bruno argues Africans were different from Jews and were pre-Adamites. The major work on pre-Adamites was from a French writer in the mid-17th century. Much like Bruno there were pretty strong racist overtones. This then became prominent among racists in the 19th century with various "scientists" promoting the views often tied with phrenology. That work became fairly influential and may have indirectly shaped Hyrum's views. Although I'd urge caution since we don't actually know what Hyrum said so it's hard to say what he believed.

If you do a quick google you'll see tons of books from before 1844 that mention pre-adamites. 

While it post-dates Nauvoo, Isabella Duncan's Pre-Adamite Man, Or, The Story of Our Old Planet and Its Inhabitants gives a reasonably good idea of the theology. Angels are pre-adamites. These theories, already popular with American racists especially in the south became extremely popular after the end of the civil war. To be fair there are also non-racist versions of pre-Adamite theory in 19th century America.

That's some very cool context to consider. Thanks, Clark.

[Bobbieaware]

41 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Is it? Why do LDS have so much trouble understanding future tense?

Doctrine and Covenants 121:31

31 All the times of their revolutions, all the appointed days, months, and years, and all the days of their days, months, and years, and all their ^aglories, laws, and set times, shall be revealed in the days of the ^bdispensation of the fulness of times—

Doctrine and Covenants 112:30-32

30 For unto you, the ^aTwelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your ^bcounselors and your leaders, is the ^cpower of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time,  

13 Unto whom I have ^acommitted the ^bkeys of my kingdom, and a ^cdispensation of the ^dgospel for the ^elast times; and for the ^ffulness of times, in the which I will gather together in ^gone all things, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth;

Doctrine and Covenants 112:30-32

30 For unto you, the ^aTwelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your ^bcounselors and your leaders, is the ^cpower of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time, in the which is the dispensation of the ^dfulness of times,

Doctrine and Covenants 128:18

18 I might have rendered a ^aplainer translation to this, but it is sufficiently plain to suit my purpose as it stands. It is sufficient to know, in this case, that the earth will be smitten with a ^bcurse unless there is a welding ^clink of some kind or other between the fathers and the ^dchildren, upon some subject or other—and behold what is that subject? It is the ^ebaptism for the dead. For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the ^ffulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time. And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the ^gfoundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent, shall be revealed unto ^hbabes and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times.

Joseph received the keys for the dispensation of the last days. Why does every scripture on the dispensation of the fulness of times distinguish itself from the last days? The things to be revealed are not being revealed in "this" dispensation but in the dispensation of the fulness of times... They shall be revealed... The dispensation of the fulness of times is about to be ushered in. In his opinion piece of 128 he even states that the hidden things will be revealed in the dispensation of the fulness of times which is "beginning to be ushered in" and that this dispensation is the one which will be the fulness of times. Going back to your first post, who reveals these dispensations? Adam through the Lord apparently since he was the first dispensation head. Did Adam stand up per Daniel 12 in the day of Joseph Smith?

Doctrine and Covenants 124:41

41 For I deign to ^areveal unto my church things which have been kept ^bhid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the ^cfulness of times.

Again we see these things are not yet revealed but will be revealed in the dispensation of the fulness of times.

Doctrine and Covenants 110:12,16

12 After this, ^aElias appeared, and committed the ^bdispensation of the ^cgospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all ^dgenerations after us should be ^eblessed.

...

16 Therefore, the ^akeys of this ^bdispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful ^cday of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Joseph received a gospel for the dispensation of the fulness of times, but the Church has not seen it nor entered in to that dispensation because it had not arrived yet. That was to usher it in, and now that it is here, the Church says but...

I hope you will excuse me if I defer to the modern prophets and apostles who have testified scores of times in General Conference that we're now living in the dispensation of the fulness of times. Just because there's still much left to unfold and be revealed in the present dispensation doesn't mean we aren't already living in the opening centuries of the dispensation of the fulness of times. You will have an exceedingly hard time trying to convince me that our leaders don't know what they are talking about.

"We declare to the world that the heavens are open and the truth of God’s eternal plan has again been made known to mankind. We live in the dispensation of the fulness of times." (L Tom Perry, October, 2006)

[RevTestament]

41 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

I hope you will excuse me if I defer to the modern prophets and apostles who have testified scores of times in General Conference that we're now living in the dispensation of the fulness of times. Just because there's still much left to unfold and be revealed in the present dispensation doesn't mean we aren't already living in the opening centuries of the dispensation of the fulness of times. You will have an exceedingly hard time trying to convince me that our leaders don't know what they are talking about.

"We declare to the world that the heavens are open and the truth of God’s eternal plan has again been made known to mankind. We live in the dispensation of the fulness of times." (L Tom Perry, October, 2006)

You are excused to believe as you wish - just thought I'd point out the distinction. Our whole church also believes physical sacrifice is done away too. I wonder why Yeshua told Peter "by what death he would glorify God."

Doctrine and Covenants 45:36

36 And when the ^alight shall begin to break forth, it shall be with them like unto a parable which I will show you—

"And I have told you concerning Jerusalem; and when that day shall come, shall a remnant be scattered among all nations; But they shall be gathered again; but they shall remain until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And in that day shall be heard of wars and rumors of wars, and the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men's heart's shall fail them, and they shall say that Christ delayeth his coming until the end of the earth. And the love of men shall wax cold, and iniquity shall abound. And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel; But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men. And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." D & C 45:24-30.

Edited October 19, 2017 by RevTestament

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

That's some very cool context to consider. Thanks, Clark.

I should note it's the third edition that's 1860. I can't find when the first edition was published. It also quotes that French text from the mid 18th century I mentioned. I've not read the whole thing but I don't think it gets into the Africans are pre-Adamite theory. So far as I know Mormons didn't ascribe to that theory. At least I've not seen any evidence for it. They instead tended to latch onto the Africans are Canaanites theory that was also being pushed by racist southerners as an apologetic for slavery in the 19th century. This then becomes more pronounced in Utah although elements we can find in Nauvoo and earlier.

Edited October 19, 2017 by clarkgoble