Working with Bishopric

[bsjkki]

I was called as the Primary President six months ago. My biggest struggle (besides 11-year-old scouts) has been working out communication and procedures with my Bishopric. I fought for being notified when they planned to call someone and the right to know who that person was and we were told to submit 2 or 3 names for callings and they would take it from there. Well, I have decided that it is best for me to accept they really don't want input and they are going to call and release people without discussing it with me. The thing is, I have been in 10 different Primary Presidencies and my Bishop supports Primary and gives us quality, dedicated teachers and leaders. So...I feel it is best to accept the they want to run things and 'administer' my calling but not waste my time pondering on callings and fasting over names when I am more often than not, left out of the loop entirely. I find out someone is being released and called from Primary with the rest of the congregation and I think I can deal with that if I adjust my expectations. There is no use being upset about it because overall, the primary is supported and things are running well. 

[Duncan]

I've found every Bishop is different. Some give Presidents names of people they can think about and pick and others i've seen pick people for them and then you have some snake in the grass Stake people who pick whoever for whatever without asking if they are available..............

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

I was called as the Primary President six months ago. My biggest struggle (besides 11-year-old scouts) has been working out communication and procedures with my Bishopric. I fought for being notified when they planned to call someone and the right to know who that person was and we were told to submit 2 or 3 names for callings and they would take it from there. Well, I have decided that it is best for me to accept they really don't want input and they are going to call and release people without discussing it with me. The thing is, I have been in 10 different Primary Presidencies and my Bishop supports Primary and gives us quality, dedicated teachers and leaders. So...I feel it is best to accept the they want to run things and 'administer' my calling but not waste my time pondering on callings and fasting over names when I am more often than not, left out of the loop entirely. I find out someone is being released and called from Primary with the rest of the congregation and I think I can deal with that if I adjust my expectations. There is no use being upset about it because overall, the primary is supported and things are running well. 

If you want you could bring up this paragraph from Handbook 2, 19.1.1. 

"Leaders keep information about proposed callings and releases confidential. Only those who need to know, such as an auxiliary president who oversees the person, are informed before the person is presented for a sustaining vote. A person who is being considered for a calling is not notified until the calling is issued."

There is no similar language dealing with who to notify when releasing someone, but the general principle of notifying the auxiliary president seems applicable.

As for who is being called, the Chart of Callings also in Handbook 2 chapter 19 says that teachers in an auxiliary are recommended (emphasis on recommended) by the auxiliary president.  Final approval for the calling is given by the bishop.  And, as already mentioned, the auxiliary president should be notified before a sustaining vote takes place.

[bsjkki]

9 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I've found every Bishop is different. Some give Presidents names of people they can think about and pick and others i've seen pick people for them and then you have some snake in the grass Stake people who pick whoever for whatever without asking if they are available..............

Oh, yes, the snake in the grass Stake people are the absolute worst!

[bsjkki]

2 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

If you want you could bring up this paragraph from Handbook 2, 19.1.1. 

"Leaders keep information about proposed callings and releases confidential. Only those who need to know, such as an auxiliary president who oversees the person, are informed before the person is presented for a sustaining vote. A person who is being considered for a calling is not notified until the calling is issued."

There is no similar language dealing with who to notify when releasing someone, but the general principle of notifying the auxiliary president seems applicable.

As for who is being called, the Chart of Callings also in Handbook 2 chapter 19 says that teachers in an auxiliary are recommended (emphasis on recommended) by the auxiliary president.  Final approval for the calling is given by the bishop.  And, as already mentioned, the auxiliary president should be notified before a sustaining vote takes place.

Yes, the next section is quite clear about the process with the caveat the Bishop has the 'final responsibility' for determining who to call but if the Bishopric wants to circumvent the process, I think, at this point, I should just go with it. I've already gone to bat for following the guidance in the Chart of Callings, expressed my concerns, formulated a list of clear processes that they approved of but...it has not been followed. I might as well embrace the situation and be grateful they have lessened by responsibilities. Right?

19.1.2

Recommendations and Approvals for Callings The Chart of Callings indicates who may make recommendations for each calling and who gives approval. In some cases, priesthood and auxiliary leaders are asked to make recommendations to their stake presidency or bishopric. They should approach this responsibility prayerfully, knowing that they can receive guidance from the Lord about whom to recommend. However, they should remember that final responsibility to receive inspiration on whom to call rests with the stake presidency or the bishopric.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

I've found every Bishop is different. Some give Presidents names of people they can think about and pick and others i've seen pick people for them and then you have some snake in the grass Stake people who pick whoever for whatever without asking if they are available..............

When I was a branch president many years ago, the Primary President and I kept in very close communication about every aspect of her calling. 

Of course, this was easy due to the fact that I was married to her!  

[rpn]

Actually, you may be PP to teach the Bishop how better to include women in ward decision making.   You do have stewardship to decided when and whom to release and whom God wants to serve, and indeed, you should be seeking that confirmation even when the names are imposed upon you, and talking with the bishop when you can't get the spiritual confirmation that you need to help those who serve be confident that they can successfully serve.

At this time of year, I seek inspiration for whom should be in the positions for the next year, and who needs time off, and what classes need to be split or rejoined, and then I give the bishop the list, with the people that I've received spiritual confirmation for and I ask the bishop to make sure they are called and sustained before the end of the year so I can train them fully before the first sunday of the new year so the children can have consistency through the year.   If your inspiration is from God, then the bishop should be able to confirm it to if he is listening, and the person called should also be able to get the same confirmation (and the parents and everyone else affected).  Sometimes it matters to God that a specific person serve in a specific way at a specific time.   Most of the time God will be okay with any of a number of willing members doing a particular calling.

[ksfisher]

2 hours ago, rpn said:

Actually, you may be PP to teach the Bishop how better to include women in ward decision making.   You do have stewardship to decided when and whom to release and whom God wants to serve, and indeed, you should be seeking that confirmation even when the names are imposed upon you, and talking with the bishop when you can't get the spiritual confirmation that you need to help those who serve be confident that they can successfully serve.

At this time of year, I seek inspiration for whom should be in the positions for the next year, and who needs time off, and what classes need to be split or rejoined, and then I give the bishop the list, with the people that I've received spiritual confirmation for and I ask the bishop to make sure they are called and sustained before the end of the year so I can train them fully before the first sunday of the new year so the children can have consistency through the year.   If your inspiration is from God, then the bishop should be able to confirm it to if he is listening, and the person called should also be able to get the same confirmation (and the parents and everyone else affected).  Sometimes it matters to God that a specific person serve in a specific way at a specific time.   Most of the time God will be okay with any of a number of willing members doing a particular calling.

I disagree with the bolded.  The auxiliary president receives inspiration as to whom to recommend.  But it is the duty of the bishop to receive the inspiration as to whom to call.  I’ve had wxperiences where I’ve been sure that I’ve been inspired as to whom to recommend, only to find that they cannot serve for a particular reason.  That does not mean that my inspiration as to whom to recommend was incorrect.

It is dangerous to suppose that because our inspiration is not confirmed  by a leader that that leader is not “listening.” .

[strappinglad]

Callings in Primary and Sunday school can occasionally be like a game of musical chairs . Primary needs a new teacher and they want someone from Sunday school so now they need a teacher for SS so they want one from YM/YW and around we go. Then the Stake steps in and removes one of the chairs without notice and the Bishop loses more hair .... etc...etc... .

[bsjkki]

1 minute ago, strappinglad said:

Callings in Primary and Sunday school can occasionally be like a game of musical chairs . Primary needs a new teacher and they want someone from Sunday school so now they need a teacher for SS so they want one from YM/YW and around we go. Then the Stake steps in and removes one of the chairs without notice and the Bishop loses more hair .... etc...etc... .

Yes...I think that is why things happen they way they do...the Bishopric sees all the puzzle pieces and feels it takes too long for us to go back and forth with recommendations. I've been in much worse situations where the callings would go unfilled for months. I would appreciated more communication but I don't want to feel frustrated or discouraged. I'm trying to control my reactions and avoid contentious feelings so a calm acceptance seems the safer path. 

[ksfisher]

37 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Yes...I think that is why things happen they way they do...the Bishopric sees all the puzzle pieces and feels it takes too long for us to go back and forth with recommendations. I've been in much worse situations where the callings would go unfilled for months. I would appreciated more communication but I don't want to feel frustrated or discouraged. I'm trying to control my reactions and avoid contentious feelings so a calm acceptance seems the safer path. 

Are you working directly with the bishop or with one of his counselors?  If it’s with the bishop he may be taking to much onto his plate and effective communication is suffering because of it.

[bsjkki]

40 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Are you working directly with the bishop or with one of his counselors?  If it’s with the bishop he may be taking to much onto his plate and effective communication is suffering because of it.

I've only met with the Bishop once in 6 months and have been working with the counselor. I've scheduled another Bishop meeting. Sometimes, I think my communications are not always communicated accurately. 

[Jane_Doe]

Last year the Bishop rang me up for one of those "let's get you a calling" appointments.  But he didn't actually gave me a choice in callings, acknowledging that my schedule can be complicated (my husband isn't LDS).  Of the three options, I picked helping co-teach Achievement Days (they had 9 girls and 1 teacher).  And the way scheduling worked out, we met about the calling at 10:45, and it was announced to the ward at 11:05.  So no one in the PP or even my co-teacher new about this beforehand.  In fact, I've been serving in the calling for a year and still don't even know who the Primary Presidency is...

[strappinglad]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

In fact, I've been serving in the calling for a year and still don't even know who the Primary Presidency is...

Time for a visit to the ward clerk and ask for a callings list.

[juliann]

17 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Yes...I think that is why things happen they way they do...the Bishopric sees all the puzzle pieces and feels it takes too long for us to go back and forth with recommendations. I've been in much worse situations where the callings would go unfilled for months. I would appreciated more communication but I don't want to feel frustrated or discouraged. I'm trying to control my reactions and avoid contentious feelings so a calm acceptance seems the safer path. 

I'm a big fan of picking the hills I want to die on and ignoring the rest. Certainly, bishops have to work very hard and need to be supported...but on the other hand, they wouldn't have to work so hard if they used half of the ward more efficiently and delegated to the women. Plus, bishops are usually out in 5 years so unless he is new you might outlast him anyway.

I think you are expressing what a growing number of women are feeling and experiencing. I'm glad to see that more of us are comfortable with talking about it, it won't ultimately be resolved if we don't. I think the reason so many women are leaving is because dismissive treatment, even though unintentional, is considered the right way. 

[ksfisher]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

I'm a big fan of picking the hills I want to die on and ignoring the rest. Certainly, bishops have to work very hard and need to be supported...but on the other hand, they wouldn't have to work so hard if they used half of the ward more efficiently and delegated to the women. Plus, bishops are usually out in 5 years so unless he is new you might outlast him anyway.

I think you are expressing what a growing number of women are feeling and experiencing. I'm glad to see that more of us are comfortable with talking about it, it won't ultimately be resolved if we don't. I think the reason so many women are leaving is because dismissive treatment, even though unintentional, is considered the right way. 

Are you saying that this is a male/female issue and that the communication difficulties wouldn't exist if the communication was between the bishopric and a male ward member?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

Are you saying that this is a male/female issue and that the communication difficulties wouldn't exist if the communication was between the bishopric and a male ward member?

Sometimes true, sometimes not.  I had a bishop who basically patted me on the head and told me not to worry when I pointed out that the Scout leader was violating Church policy and common sense by taking 12 boys alone on a winter camp up in the mountains.  He is the kind of man who likely would have listened and done something if a guy had said it (he was excommunicated later for seducing women who worked under him with talk of being his wife in the next life).  All the guys I talked to about it had been Scouts in the days where that was permissible and thought the kids lucky to have a leader who wanted to camp with them, so none of them said anything including my husband.  I was furious and stupid enough not to threaten to tell the Scouts' Council if another leader wasn't found.

I have had other bishops who listened to me as seriously as they listened to my husband.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Calm

[ksfisher]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

Sometimes true, sometimes not.

Personally my communication or lack thereof with other people usually revolves around how busy things are and not the gender of the other person. 

In many instances I find that it is easier for me (a male) to communicate with a female as they seem to be much more communicative in return.  More feedback.  Better questions.  Not always, but generally this seems to be true. 

[juliann]

ks, I highly recommend https://press.princeton.edu/titles/10402.html   The Silent Sex: Gender, Deliberation, and Institutions (co-authored by a BYU prof). 

Or at least google male communication styles. Until we understand that women are, statistically, disadvantaged in male spaces it won't change. Again, this is something males need to help with. Women are routinely interrupted more, given more negative feedback and less positive feedback, and their ideas are appropriated. And it is just the way things are done. To think this culturally engrained behavior doesn't bleed into the church at all levels isn't rational.

That isn't to say that is what you do....but by time you encounter a woman who has been effectively silenced she may need to be drawn out and shown that you will listen to her. 

[ksfisher]

32 minutes ago, juliann said:

ks, I highly recommend https://press.princeton.edu/titles/10402.html   The Silent Sex: Gender, Deliberation, and Institutions (co-authored by a BYU prof). 

Or at least google male communication styles. Until we understand that women are, statistically, disadvantaged in male spaces it won't change. Again, this is something males need to help with. Women are routinely interrupted more, given more negative feedback and less positive feedback, and their ideas are appropriated. And it is just the way things are done. To think this culturally engrained behavior doesn't bleed into the church at all levels isn't rational.

That isn't to say that is what you do....but by time you encounter a woman who has been effectively silenced she may need to be drawn out and shown that you will listen to her. 

Your assumption would seem to be that the situation in the OP is a male/female problem.  I would propose that it is equally possible that all organizations in the OP ward are experiencing similar, though not necessarily identical, issues.  If the bishopric were to follow proper proceedures as outlined in the handbook much of the problems and frustrations expressed by the OP would be aleviated.   

[mnn727]

20 hours ago, juliann said:

I think the reason so many women are leaving is because dismissive treatment, even though unintentional, is considered the right way. 

So many women are leaving?? Where? certainly not happening around here.

[The Nehor]

In my ward if you have a pulse and show up on Sunday people will fight tooth and nail to get you. We really need more active people. I got two callings in my first month in the ward.

[The Nehor]

I have been in a few bishoprics (as secretary and/or clerk) and while I sympathize with the problem asking for suggestions can sometimes be a nightmare. Two auxiliaries ask for the same person, they ask for someone from another calling that cannot reasonably be released, want someone who has problems that make them ineligible or unable to serve but that status is not generally known, or want someone who is already being considered or even chosen for another calling that has not been announced yet. It is usually not that the Bishopric is ignoring you. Unless selecting callings moves to the Ward Council level there is no easy solution to have communication flow both ways quickly and that would have its own problems.

There is also no standard way to select people for callings. One bishop I served with had a calling board on his wall with pictures and went over gaps every week prayerfully with the Bishopric and asked for names from any present and did not move forward until he felt spiritually prompted that this person was acceptable to the Lord for this calling at this time. Another came into Bishopric meeting with his decisions already made and prayed about in advance. Another always asked the leadership in charge of an organization to give him a name or list of names and made the decisions in private discussions with them.

All of them were inspired and were not capricious or casual in the selection process.

Edited October 18, 2017 by The Nehor