The Next Time a Critic Gripes Re: Church's Business Interests . . . Quote Quinn

[Five Solas]

On 10/21/2017 at 8:44 AM, smac97 said:

...

Here you go: http://www.catholic-ew.org.uk/Governance-and-Contact/Catholic-Trust-CaTEW/Reports-and-Accounts

Thanks,

-Smac

Appreciate you sharing.  And I submit this is what you'd expect from a mature & established church.  A solid financial position, modest growth and funds generated to be used elsewhere (among other things, the Catholic Church in England & Wales is funding anti-slavery/anti-sex trafficing efforts at home and abroad).  And if they are relying on subsidy from the Vatican or anywhere else--well, they've sure done a good job of burying it (and they must have bribed the independent accountants, too).

;0)

LDS woes in the UK due to secularism as some LDS have insisted?  Well, if that's really part of the story, it's likely a small part--if the Catholic experience is to be believed.    

--Erik

[kiwi57]

46 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

Appreciate you sharing.  And I submit this is what you'd expect from a mature & established church.  A solid financial position, modest growth and funds generated to be used elsewhere (among other things, the Catholic Church in England & Wales is funding anti-slavery/anti-sex trafficing efforts at home and abroad).  And if they are relying on subsidy from the Vatican or anywhere else--well, they've sure done a good job of burying it (and they must have bribed the independent accountants, too).

;0)

LDS woes in the UK due to secularism as some LDS have insisted?  Well, if that's really part of the story, it's likely a small part--if the Catholic experience is to be believed.    

--Erik

I know, right? After all, the Catholic Church has only owned land in the UK for what? About 1500 years?

A perfect parallel!

[Kenngo1969]

On 10/21/2017 at 9:34 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

Sometimes I'm surprised by the rudeness on this board. This is one of those times.

 

It should be concerning when the church cannot be sustained locally in well-developed areas. It may be understandable in newly organized or developing areas like Africa, but to act like it's no big deal that Europe is struggling to support itself is sipping on the Kool-Aid. People are citing the secularization of Europe as a way to brush the problem away, but even if that is true, it still shows the weakness. Is anyone aware of financial #'s for other churches in the UK? I'd be curious, for example, to see whether or not the catholic church is bailing out the UK diocese

You shouldn't be surprised at rudeness coming from me.  It's my default modus operandi, my stock-in-trade, my very raison d'etre. My motto is, I'm rude, therefore, I am. Erik has enough of a posting history on this Board and its predecessors that he has a very high bar to clear to convince many of us that he is arguing in good faith, that he is sincere, and so on.  Conversely, whether he wants to admit it or not, there is evidence in his long posting history that might provide at least the barest hint of a whisp of a reason to doubt his motives.

To put it bluntly, Erik's "concern" for the Church of Jesus Christ largely is feigned.  He's here to yank the chains of faithful Latter-day Saints, and then to sit back, popcorn in hand, and watch the show.

Quote

Five Solas stated that it is concerning that the church in the UK cannot sustain itself and is met by rude accusations. It is laughable that you state that the church seems to be unsustainable locally in "most of the rest of the world" as some kind of defense. I think that only makes five Solas point.

You miss my point entirely if you think that it is simply that the Church of Jesus Christ outside the United States "is unsustainable locally in most of the rest of the world."  That comes with at least one caveat that you, for whatever reason, have chosen to ignore.  You're welcome to reread my other contribution(s) to the thread if you need clarification.  

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Five Solas said:

... LDS woes in the UK due to secularism as some LDS have insisted?  Well, if that's really part of the story, it's likely a small part--if the Catholic experience is to be believed.    

--Erik

Why would members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who actually reside in the UK actually know what's going with the Church of Jesus Christ in the UK?  Attaboy! You tell 'em, Erik!  They definitely should take the word of somebody who's 5,000 miles away over what they can see with their own eyes!  (By the way, it might interest you to know that the "UK" in "sheilauk's" handle stands for ... um ... Oh, never mind!)

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, Five Solas said:

LDS woes in the UK due to secularism as some LDS have insisted?  Well, if that's really part of the story, it's likely a small part--if the Catholic experience is to be believed.    

I expect most of LDS issues are part of larger secularization moves. It's hitting all religions. ¼ of those raised Christian leave. It's especially affecting the young men. The only ones it's not really affecting are those who have a lot of immigrants. That's helped Catholicism a bit but primarily has been increasing the rates of Islam and Hinduism. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/13/uk-losing-faith-religion-young-reject-parents-beliefs

About the only bright spot is that the rate of secularization appears to have stalled - although that's partially due to immigration and high birthrates among immigrants. 

[Five Solas]

On 10/22/2017 at 5:25 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

You shouldn't be surprised at rudeness coming from me.  It's my default modus operandi, my stock-in-trade, my very raison d'etre. My motto is, I'm rude, therefore, I am. Erik has enough of a posting history on this Board and its predecessors that he has a very high bar to clear to convince many of us that he is arguing in good faith, that he is sincere, and so on.  Conversely, whether he wants to admit it or not, there is evidence in his long posting history that might provide at least the barest hint of a whisp of a reason to doubt his motives.

To put it bluntly, Erik's "concern" for the Church of Jesus Christ largely is feigned.  He's here to yank the chains of faithful Latter-day Saints, and then to sit back, popcorn in hand, and watch the show.

This is over the top, even by the lofty standard you've put forward, Kenngo. 

;0)

My alias is Five Solas.  Anyone familiar with Protestantism is going to see that & know immediately where I stand.  And I never pretend or "feign" otherwise.  No one on this forum has cause to doubt my sincerity.  

But I am interested in how LDS think, their values, their sense of priority.  There are a lot of LDS in my extended family (both my parents are from Utah, multi-generational LDS, handcart companies, polygamous ancestry--the whole nine yards).  So dialogue on the forum is actually of some use to me.  I haven't made this any secret.  

I waded into this thread because I was intrigued by LDS posters extolling the relatively modest compensation of their leadership--while altogether ignoring a much more significant issue that had been raised.  I wanted to see if I could get anyone to see it from my perspective (and at least one poster, HappyJackWagon, did seem to appreciate my point).  But most did not and several betrayed irritation in their replies (and I'd include you on the short list).  Honestly, I find this fascinating.  If the shoe was on the other foot and someone were pointing out deficiencies in my church's missionary undertakings/church planting--I would never react the way some of you do to me.  So what makes us so different?  Serious question.   

But again, I was never motivated by a desire to see the LDS Church & its theology prosper.  I was simply intrigued that LDS would pay so much attention to a small thing while ignoring or shrugging off a seemingly much greater issue.  And along the way, I got to learn something about the Catholic Church in the UK--and that was as cool as it was unexpected.    

I'll leave you to the last word here, should you wish it.

--Erik

___________________________________________________

The light reflecting off the mirror ball
looks like a thousand swirling eyes
They make me think I shouldn't be here at all
You know, every minute someone dies

--The Magnetic Fields

[Kenngo1969]

Quote

 If the shoe was on the other foot and someone were pointing out deficiencies in my church's missionary undertakings/church planting--I would never react the way some of you do to me.  So what makes us so different?  Serious question.   

The difference between us (and, honestly, I'm surprised you would even have to ask, since it's so obviously self-evident) is ... [Drum roll, please!] 

I'm a contemptible, reprobate, eeee-vuhl, utterly-reprehensible, utterly-irredeemable excuse for a human being!   I once had a pet maggot, but even he found my company so detestable that he preferred death! women, children, and small animals cry out in terror and flee at the very mention of my name!  Even mere weeds refuse to grow within a five-mile radius of my home! 

Today, Mormon Dialogue and Discussion!  Tomorrow ...

THE WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bwah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cue thunder!]

[bsjkki]

Here is a podcast with Quinn from the Salt Lake Trib. I hate podcasts and may or may not ever listen to it but I thought some of you may enjoy the content. http://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2017/10/25/mormon-land-historian-d-michael-quinn-talks-about-his-exploration-of-lds-church-wealth-what-he-found-may-surprise-you-it-did-him/

[nuclearfuels]

Strange how stunning and edifying facts about data form other nonprofits are.

 

[kiwi57]

On 10/23/2017 at 12:11 PM, Five Solas said:

Appreciate you sharing.  And I submit this is what you'd expect from a mature & established church.  A solid financial position, modest growth and funds generated to be used elsewhere (among other things, the Catholic Church in England & Wales is funding anti-slavery/anti-sex trafficing efforts at home and abroad).  And if they are relying on subsidy from the Vatican or anywhere else--well, they've sure done a good job of burying it (and they must have bribed the independent accountants, too).

;0)

LDS woes in the UK due to secularism as some LDS have insisted?  Well, if that's really part of the story, it's likely a small part--if the Catholic experience is to be believed.    

--Erik

Incidentally, I notice in your new thread, you tried to pretend that this bogus comparison hadn't been addressed. I wonder why that would be?

I guess, to borrow your own expression, that it's only a matter of time before civility pretense must be discarded.

[mnn727]

Quote

And yet the critics will complain about this.  It's almost as if criticizing the Church is an end unto itself.

That pretty much sums it all up, critics are gonna criticize, no matter what.

[JulieM]

30 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

That pretty much sums it all up, critics are gonna criticize, no matter what.

I agree.  However, I think there’s a difference between being critical and asking questions or even disagreeing at times.  Also, preaching against the church is crossing the line, IMO.