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"The Prophet Joseph Smith declared, and he never taught a more comforting doctrine".


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I have often used this quote while teaching. It can give hope, but not without a heavy sacrifice, it reads...

"The Prophet Joseph Smith declared...and he never taught a more comforting doctrine...that the Eternal Sealing of of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service to the cause of truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wonder, the eye of the Shepard is upon then, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life, or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads at long last like the penitent prodigal, to a loving and forgiving Father's heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold onto them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God". 

Sometimes I wonder if what I say or do will ever matter, I wonder why I still go to Church. This is not a personal thread, but an inquiry if being discouraged is no longer hanging onto our children with our Faith? The quote is attributed to Joseph, yet many lost their way. Also, (as said in the quote) "we" don't save ourselves, nor our "children". So is this sound doctrine, or is it just pointing out that our efforts allow Jesus Christ to save us and our posterity? 

I feel as most parents do, that the only batting average that matters is 1,000, as we are not willing to lose even one. Despite some of my children having done things that are very serious, I also ache when they hurt, their pain is my own pain. What are we to do, when our best efforts are not enough? 

Thoughts? 

 

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1 hour ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I have often used this quote while teaching. It can give hope, but not without a heavy sacrifice, it reads...

"The Prophet Joseph Smith declared...and he never taught a more comforting doctrine...that the Eternal Sealing of of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service to the cause of truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wonder, the eye of the Shepard is upon then, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life, or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads at long last like the penitent prodigal, to a loving and forgiving Father's heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold onto them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God". 

Sometimes I wonder if what I say or do will ever matter, I wonder why I still go to Church. This is not a personal thread, but an inquiry if being discouraged is no longer hanging onto our children with our Faith? The quote is attributed to Joseph, yet many lost their way. Also, (as said in the quote) "we" don't save ourselves, nor our "children". So is this sound doctrine, or is it just pointing out that our efforts allow Jesus Christ to save us and our posterity? 

I feel as most parents do, that the only batting average that matters is 1,000, as we are not willing to lose even one. Despite some of my children having done things that are very serious, I also ache when they hurt, their pain is my own pain. What are we to do, when our best efforts are not enough? 


Actually, the quote you used is attributed to Orson F. Whitney, not Joseph.
The doctrine Whitney bases the quote on comes from Joseph's quote:

  •  “When a seal is put upon the father and mother, it secures their posterity, so that they cannot be lost, but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father and mother.”

Elder Bednar addressed this - https://www.lds.org/ensign/2014/03/faithful-parents-and-wayward-children-sustaining-hope-while-overcoming-misunderstanding?lang=eng
And he addressed some of your questions specifically.

Edited by JLHPROF
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1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:


Actually, the quote you used is attributed to Orson F. Whitney, not Joseph.
The doctrine Whitney bases the quote on comes from Joseph's quote:

  •  “When a seal is put upon the father and mother, it secures their posterity, so that they cannot be lost, but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father and mother.”

Elder Bednar addressed this - https://www.lds.org/ensign/2014/03/faithful-parents-and-wayward-children-sustaining-hope-while-overcoming-misunderstanding?lang=eng
And he addressed some of your questions specifically.

Don't I feel like a dope now! :( 

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8 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I have often used this quote while teaching. It can give hope, but not without a heavy sacrifice, it reads...

"The Prophet Joseph Smith declared...and he never taught a more comforting doctrine...that the Eternal Sealing of of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service to the cause of truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wonder, the eye of the Shepard is upon then, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life, or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads at long last like the penitent prodigal, to a loving and forgiving Father's heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold onto them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God". 

Sometimes I wonder if what I say or do will ever matter, I wonder why I still go to Church. This is not a personal thread, but an inquiry if being discouraged is no longer hanging onto our children with our Faith? The quote is attributed to Joseph, yet many lost their way. Also, (as said in the quote) "we" don't save ourselves, nor our "children". So is this sound doctrine, or is it just pointing out that our efforts allow Jesus Christ to save us and our posterity? 

I feel as most parents do, that the only batting average that matters is 1,000, as we are not willing to lose even one. Despite some of my children having done things that are very serious, I also ache when they hurt, their pain is my own pain. What are we to do, when our best efforts are not enough? 

Thoughts?

Keep including them in as many family things you can; pray for them constantly. Be of good cheer, Jesus has overcome the world. So even if not in this life the Lord will rescue all that desire it.

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7 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

................................................ What are we to do, when our best efforts are not enough? 

.........................

We do what God does:  We weep (Moses 7:28-40).  However, my late wife's favorite Scripture was Psalm 30:5, "weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning."

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12 hours ago, Calm said:

Truth is truth, whoever speaks it.

Question, I find that I gave this quote more weight, since I thought Joseph said it. Is it equally true now that it is not? 

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1 hour ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Question, I find that I gave this quote more weight, since I thought Joseph said it. Is it equally true now that it is not? 

Of course.  It was based on Joseph's teaching.

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19 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

What are we to do, when our best efforts are not enough?

I think the principle of grace answers this question.

While Elder Holland's talk was about turning to grace to allay "persistent self-criticism," I think some of his comments apply to a parent's sense of failure in drawing their children to Christ. If sincere repentance doesn't address this wound (or if none were required in the first place) -- and grace is necessary in repentance too -- we must trust in the Lord's compassion, as incomprehensible as it is: "Jesus uses an unfathomable measurement here because His Atonement is an unfathomable gift given at an incomprehensible cost. That, it seems to me, is at least part of the meaning behind Jesus’s charge to [look to His grace]."

I recall I was in a predicament of the most excruciating physical pain, so severe that it seemed to bleed into my very psyche. It was all that I knew; I was turning into an animal it seemed. It was that moment that, like Alma's spiritual pain, I found myself able to call upon the one thing that penetrated the darkness: Jesus Christ and I felt His grace. To me that is an extreme example, but imagining what it is like to lose a child, spiritually or temporally, I think the same principle might apply.

So I would say, when our best efforts are not enough, hold on to he one constant hope, Christ, and grace will bring the promised blessings to pass. No matter how the doctrine you quoted will be fulfilled, and I trust that it will be in a way that makes us and our children more like God than we are now, it will be fulfilled.

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On 10/13/2017 at 2:34 PM, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I have often used this quote while teaching. It can give hope, but not without a heavy sacrifice, it reads...

"The Prophet Joseph Smith declared...and he never taught a more comforting doctrine...that the Eternal Sealing of of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service to the cause of truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wonder, the eye of the Shepard is upon then, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life, or the life to come, they will return...

If LDS actually believed this--it seems they might have at least a little appreciation towards that Fifth Point of Calvinism--perseverance of the saints/eternal security in Christ.  But given the number of disparaging comments made about "once saved always saved" over the years on the forum--I'm skeptical this particular quote has gotten a lot of airplay and/or consideration. 

In fact, you yourself might have weighed in against the matter on a previous thread, Bill "Papa" Lee.  I'd be curious how you reconcile the seeming conflict.  "They will return"--really?!?  What about their free agency, etc.?

--Erik

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20 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

If LDS actually believed this--it seems they might have at least a little appreciation towards that Fifth Point of Calvinism--perseverance of the saints/eternal security in Christ.  But given the number of disparaging comments made about "once saved always saved" over the years on the forum--I'm skeptical this particular quote has gotten a lot of airplay and/or consideration. 

In fact, you yourself might have weighed in against the matter on a previous thread, Bill "Papa" Lee.  I'd be curious how you reconcile the seeming conflict.  "They will return"--really?!?  What about their free agency, etc.?

--Erik

My view of salvation is much different than it once was. I agree with Papa that most everyone will return to God. I believe Yeshua will reveal more and more of Himself, and thus more will return. In the last day of judgment when even the wicked get resurrected from hell, I believe most will repent and accept Yeshua, but those who wait to the last day to face Him face to face at judgment until they fell a need to repent probably won't get much more than a telestial reward. So I agree with Bill. Yeshua said of those the Father has given Him, none will be lost. Other than the sons of perdition, I believe the Father has given Him the world, and that He atoned for the world. As for once saved always saved... No. No such thing.

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1 hour ago, Five Solas said:

If LDS actually believed this--it seems they might have at least a little appreciation towards that Fifth Point of Calvinism--perseverance of the saints/eternal security in Christ.  But given the number of disparaging comments made about "once saved always saved" over the years on the forum--I'm skeptical this particular quote has gotten a lot of airplay and/or consideration. 

In fact, you yourself might have weighed in against the matter on a previous thread, Bill "Papa" Lee.  I'd be curious how you reconcile the seeming conflict.  "They will return"--really?!?  What about their free agency, etc.?

--Erik

They will certainly return to their parents (everyone does in the long run, as you must well know). And note the “if” (as in: “if [their suffering] leads ...to a loving and forgiving Father's heart and home…”).

The encouragement is found in the doctrine of praying and holding fast in faith in Christ to the careless and disobedient children (extending grace), and in hoping in Christ until you see the salvation of God (receiving grace).

And if the disobedient children still choose to suffer and not be led to the Father’s home, they will still return to their parents anyway to enjoy what they are willing to receive from them.

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On 10/13/2017 at 3:34 PM, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I have often used this quote while teaching. It can give hope, but not without a heavy sacrifice, it reads...

"The Prophet Joseph Smith declared...and he never taught a more comforting doctrine...

Thoughts? 

 

It is a doctrine that brings peace. 

 

The things I have researched/written over the years are intended to strengthen those who struggle[d] over the Restoration...so that fewer leave.  

They are also intended to help invite back those who have left.

 

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The one powerful thing that I always get from your posts is your incredible deep love for your children and the hope you have for them not only in this life, but the life to come.  Your children are lucky to have such a loving and caring father.  You can not save them.  But you can show them your love for them every chance you get.  Don't be discouraged.  Trust God.  Trust your children. Their journey back to God may not be the same path that you are on or the one you think they have to follow.  Less than 1% of God's children are on the path that you believe is right for you. Surely God has something planned for the other 99% of His children.  

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16 hours ago, CV75 said:

They will certainly return to their parents (everyone does in the long run, as you must well know). And note the “if” (as in: “if [their suffering] leads ...to a loving and forgiving Father's heart and home…”).

The encouragement is found in the doctrine of praying and holding fast in faith in Christ to the careless and disobedient children (extending grace), and in hoping in Christ until you see the salvation of God (receiving grace).

And if the disobedient children still choose to suffer and not be led to the Father’s home, they will still return to their parents anyway to enjoy what they are willing to receive from them.

You're saying two things that appear to be in opposition, CV75.  On the one hand, you're saying it's a certainty sealed children will return to their parents.  And on the other, you're saying "if"--and "if" implies a condition--the condition here seeming to be sufficient "suffering," etc.  

Are you suggesting sealed children could be with their parents but not be with the LDS Heavenly Father?  That seems curious.  And if that's what you mean--do you have any Scripture to support this idea?

--Erik

PS.  I was sealed in the Provo temple to my parents when I was ~ 11.  Supposing one's parents become less active in their later years, and one of them becomes completely agnostic but still goes through the motions for the sake of the other.  Does your notion still apply or can an unbelieving parent break the chain?     

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19 hours ago, Five Solas said:

If LDS actually believed this--it seems they might have at least a little appreciation towards that Fifth Point of Calvinism--perseverance of the saints/eternal security in Christ.  But given the number of disparaging comments made about "once saved always saved" over the years on the forum--I'm skeptical this particular quote has gotten a lot of airplay and/or consideration. 

In fact, you yourself might have weighed in against the matter on a previous thread, Bill "Papa" Lee.  I'd be curious how you reconcile the seeming conflict.  "They will return"--really?!?  What about their free agency, etc.?

--Erik

Except we would also have to embrace the other aspects of Calvinism, that deny free-will, and the ability to freely choose Jesus Christ and salvation. This idea is repugnant to our entire belief system. 

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20 hours ago, RevTestament said:

My view of salvation is much different than it once was. I agree with Papa that most everyone will return to God. I believe Yeshua will reveal more and more of Himself, and thus more will return. In the last day of judgment when even the wicked get resurrected from hell, I believe most will repent and accept Yeshua, but those who wait to the last day to face Him face to face at judgment until they fell a need to repent probably won't get much more than a telestial reward. So I agree with Bill. Yeshua said of those the Father has given Him, none will be lost. Other than the sons of perdition, I believe the Father has given Him the world, and that He atoned for the world. As for once saved always saved... No. No such thing.

Amen, his Grace is sufficient, and there is no "limited atonement", as Calvin taught. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son", (Yeshua, Joshua, JEHOVAH, Jesus Christ) to atone for the sins of all mankind. This "gift" is freely given, and available to all who accept it, and to the repentant wherever, and whenever they may be. For in the final days, "every knee shall bow, and every tounge confess, that Jesus is the Christ". It is through his Grace that we are made perfect, and able to enter into the presence of God our Father (Elohim),  and there have our families sealed for "everlasting to everlasting". Of course I speak of faith, but that faith is all I have, and all that I need. I am a believer, and make no apology for living and loving those in whom God has placed his trust. Therefore, I will not fail my wife, my children, my grandchildren, and all future generations to come! They are mine, and with my many imperfections, if I can love them "as I do", most certainly does a perfect God, love them even more! 

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9 hours ago, california boy said:

The one powerful thing that I always get from your posts is your incredible deep love for your children and the hope you have for them not only in this life, but the life to come.  Your children are lucky to have such a loving and caring father.  You can not save them.  But you can show them your love for them every chance you get.  Don't be discouraged.  Trust God.  Trust your children. Their journey back to God may not be the same path that you are on or the one you think they have to follow.  Less than 1% of God's children are on the path that you believe is right for you. Surely God has something planned for the other 99% of His children.  

My guess is that my bio-father leaving us abandoned and homeless for a time, compels me to never be like him. That coupled with the amazing man who adopted my siblings and myself, teaching me what unconditional love really means. I do try to be the best husband and father, to my oldest daughter whom I adopted, and the three Pam and I had together, and one baby lost. They are all what I have invested my entire life too, so I cannot fail them. But, at times you (I) wonder have I given enough, done enough, loved enough, and taught enough? They are all here today, minus one...who could not make it. I love Sunday's when all are here, each weekend many of the Grandbabies argue to see who get to stay with Nanny and Papa. This Friday and Saturday night we had three staying with us. It is the same every time school is out, now we have another baby on the way. :) As to you last line, I do believe that as any good father would do, God our Father will do the best he can with all of his children. After all it is his mission, "To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life or (all) man". So even if men, or their institutions are lacking, "He" is not! 

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5 hours ago, Five Solas said:

You're saying two things that appear to be in opposition, CV75.  On the one hand, you're saying it's a certainty sealed children will return to their parents.  And on the other, you're saying "if"--and "if" implies a condition--the condition here seeming to be sufficient "suffering," etc.  

Are you suggesting sealed children could be with their parents but not be with the LDS Heavenly Father?  That seems curious.  And if that's what you mean--do you have any Scripture to support this idea?

--Erik

PS.  I was sealed in the Provo temple to my parents when I was ~ 11.  Supposing one's parents become less active in their later years, and one of them becomes completely agnostic but still goes through the motions for the sake of the other.  Does your notion still apply or can an unbelieving parent break the chain?     

They may appear to be in opposition, but they are not according to D&C 76. On one hand, people who are saved as individuals will still return to their parents in the sense that in the resurrected worlds, people in lesser glories are administered to by those from a higher kingdom, and those in the same kingdom certainly relate to one another (verses 86-88 for example). On the other hand, people who are saved in exaltation will return to their parents because they have repented. Faithful parents with sealed children can operate on both hands. Less valiant parents and children fall into the “one” hand, depending on which kingdom they are respectively willing to receive. Valiant parents and children operate in the “other” hand.

I think the situation you described falls into the “one” hand. If all family members end up in the same kingdom, sealed or not, or with a broken seal, they have returned to each other. If they are in different kingdoms with those from the higher administering to those of the lesser, they have returned also. Those in the same kingdom will not reject each other; those in different kingdoms will administer and receive administration because that is one the conditions they are willing to receive, of the law they are willing to abide (D&C 88:36 and 22-24), whether by administering or by being administered to.

If you look at who was being addressed in the Whitney quote, you can see that faithful parents have many options to have their children return to them, even if not in exaltation, and even if their child's sealing to them has somehow been broken.

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D&C 76 says nothing about "parents," CV75.  You seem to be making a pretty huge inference.  Do you really think in Mormonism families are eternal in the Telestial, Terrestrial & Celestial Kingdoms?  I spent my first 3+ decades LDS, and I don't recall anyone ever saying (or suggesting) that.  But perhaps I just wasn't paying sufficient attention (I've been accused of that before--so no offense taken if it happens again).

If we took the trouble to create a new thread with a poll - do you think many of your fellow LDS would agree with you?  (I'm not saying I'm going to do this - I'm just wondering what you think about it.)

--Erik

__________________________________________

And it's such a sad old feeling
all the fields are soft and green
it's memories that i'm stealing
but you're innocent when you dream

--Tom Waits, 1987

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8 hours ago, Five Solas said:

D&C 76 says nothing about "parents," CV75.  You seem to be making a pretty huge inference.  Do you really think in Mormonism families are eternal in the Telestial, Terrestrial & Celestial Kingdoms?  I spent my first 3+ decades LDS, and I don't recall anyone ever saying (or suggesting) that.  But perhaps I just wasn't paying sufficient attention (I've been accused of that before--so no offense taken if it happens again).

If we took the trouble to create a new thread with a poll - do you think many of your fellow LDS would agree with you?  (I'm not saying I'm going to do this - I'm just wondering what you think about it.)

--Erik

__________________________________________

And it's such a sad old feeling
all the fields are soft and green
it's memories that i'm stealing
but you're innocent when you dream

--Tom Waits, 1987

Why should D&C 76 have to specify parents? Those of higher kingdoms administer to those of lower; who better to do that than family members ("that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there")?

The only families that are eternal in the sense you refer to are those who are sealed and exalted. Only these can dwell together in the Father's presence and in the Church of the Firstborn. I am not saying families can be eternal in lesser kingdoms; it is clear that people are saved only as individuals in that respect. But relationships and administering obviously continue to exist between kingdoms, as explained in D&C 76. Resurrected beings, as demonstrated in the verses i shared, cannot administer upward, but they certainly do downward as D&C 76 makes clear.

I cannot speak to your church experience or how you arrived at your conclusions, but it is clear to me that many accept these principles and points of doctrine on an intuitive level without having to articulate them or point to scripture as I did for your benefit. Have you ever had this same conversation with anyone before?

If you were to construct a proper poll, you would have to understand what I've explained and in turn present it in good faith. For example, "Do you believe that D&C 76:86-88 leaves it open for family members in a higher kingdom to administer to those in a lesser kingdom?" "Do you believe that D&C 130:2 leaves it open for family members in a higher kingdom to administer to those in a lesser kingdom?" "Do you believe that exaltation prohibits or prevents anyone from administering (i.e. condescending, per 1 Nephi 11: 16-26) to those in lesser kingdoms?" While a poll removes the advantages of an honest conversation, I think most LDS would respond in the affirmative. I'm sure there are better questions than these, too.

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On 10/16/2017 at 6:49 AM, CV75 said:

Why should D&C 76 have to specify parents? Those of higher kingdoms administer to those of lower; who better to do that than family members ("that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there")?

The only families that are eternal in the sense you refer to are those who are sealed and exalted. Only these can dwell together in the Father's presence and in the Church of the Firstborn. I am not saying families can be eternal in lesser kingdoms; it is clear that people are saved only as individuals in that respect. But relationships and administering obviously continue to exist between kingdoms, as explained in D&C 76. Resurrected beings, as demonstrated in the verses i shared, cannot administer upward, but they certainly do downward as D&C 76 makes clear.

I cannot speak to your church experience or how you arrived at your conclusions, but it is clear to me that many accept these principles and points of doctrine on an intuitive level without having to articulate them or point to scripture as I did for your benefit. Have you ever had this same conversation with anyone before?

If you were to construct a proper poll, you would have to understand what I've explained and in turn present it in good faith. For example, "Do you believe that D&C 76:86-88 leaves it open for family members in a higher kingdom to administer to those in a lesser kingdom?" "Do you believe that D&C 130:2 leaves it open for family members in a higher kingdom to administer to those in a lesser kingdom?" "Do you believe that exaltation prohibits or prevents anyone from administering (i.e. condescending, per 1 Nephi 11: 16-26) to those in lesser kingdoms?" While a poll removes the advantages of an honest conversation, I think most LDS would respond in the affirmative. I'm sure there are better questions than these, too.

I think you may on to something here, CV75.  And while I haven't had this conversation before, I do agree at least some of the LDS worldview and beliefs exist at what you call the "intuitive level"--unarticulated, undefended.  But passionately held, nonetheless.  You have to step on it in some way to discover its existence. 

And I think it occasionally manifests itself on the board when an LDS poster will tell me, "of course you know that."  Or tell me they don't need to respond to a question, because it's understood and therefore I must be deliberately & scandalously obtuse.  How dare I even ask?  And I not infrequently get thread bans, no explanation--but someone (presumably LDS) got upset and reported me to the mods about whatever it was I stepped on.    

Of course, it also shows up in the "real world" in extended familiarly settings, where it's a sometimes volatile mix of devout LDS and "apostate" (you better not order yourself a beer when our kids are at the restaurant, we won't have them see you do that--never mind that your kids do).  But we've learned ways to dance over the years.  And I believe this board has actually been of help to me in that regard.  I certainly get less thread-bans than I used to (although in fairness, the board itself is evolving). 

Now whether your example (parents "administering" errant progeny throughout the eternities) or the one I linked to are actually good examples of this, I can't say for sure.

But I do think it could make a fun billboard advertisement-- Mormonism: An eternity of living in your parents' "basement" if you don't mend your unworthy ways.  I can picture it on Southbound I-15 towards Utah County already.

;0)

--Erik

____________________________________________________

Papa was a rodeo - Mama was a rock 'n' roll band

--The Magnetic Fields, 1999

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1 hour ago, Five Solas said:

I think you may on to something here, CV75.  And while I haven't had this conversation before, I do agree at least some of the LDS worldview and beliefs exist at what you call the "intuitive level"--unarticulated, undefended.  But passionately held, nonetheless.  You have to step on it in some way to discover its existence. 

And I think it occasionally manifests itself on the board when an LDS poster will tell me, "of course you know that."  Or tell me they don't need to respond to a question, because it's understood and therefore I must be deliberately & scandalously obtuse.  How dare I even ask?  And I not infrequently get thread bans, no explanation--but someone (presumably LDS) got upset and reported me to the mods about whatever it was I stepped on.    

Of course, it also shows up in the "real world" in extended familiarly settings, where it's a sometimes volatile mix of devout LDS and "apostate" (you better not order yourself a beer when our kids are at the restaurant, we won't have them see you do that--never mind that your kids do).  But we've learned ways to dance over the years.  And I believe this board has actually been of help to me in that regard.  I certainly get less thread-bans than I used to (although in fairness, the board itself is evolving). 

Now whether your example (parents "administering" errant progeny throughout the eternities) or the one I linked to are actually good examples of this, I can't say for sure.

But I do think it could make a fun billboard advertisement-- Mormonism: An eternity of living in your parents' "basement" if you don't mend your unworthy ways.  I can picture it on Southbound I-15 towards Utah County already.

;0)

--Erik

____________________________________________________

Papa was a rodeo - Mama was a rock 'n' roll band

--The Magnetic Fields, 1999

I’m thinking that children can / will likewise administer to their parents, but the Whitney quote was only about what sorrowing parents can do to find hope in emulating Christ. So, you’d need two billboards.

Humor aside, I think the billboards would be wrong. Those who are administered to receive the ministrations without any sense of belittlement whatsoever. Instead, they receive all they are willing to enjoy, and the givers rejoice in giving all that their recipients are willing to enjoy. This is because all the sorrows of the world have been swallowed up in Christ, justice and mercy have been fulfilled, and the relationships, by virtue of where the parties are living and the bounds or terms how they are able to relate, reflect an optimal balance of mutual expectation.

As you described, this balance seems hard to achieve in mortality! But not impossible.

I’m not saying that these principles and points of doctrine can only be accepted by faith on an intuitive level, but that many people do it that way, and quite happily; I don’t begrudge them for taking things on faith. That I happen to also articulate them with scriptural support, and share that for the sake of conversation, is another way to accept them.

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