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Is the Pope more Mormon than our current leaders?


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I'm a big fan of Pope Francis, and it seems like he keeps making statements and implementing policies that are so important and prophetic for our time.  I really think he's an inspired leader, and sometimes he says something that just strikes me as so Mormon, its amazing.  I was thinking about this quote from a recent speech and I'm contrasting this with the statements that we hear from some of our church leaders recently about doctrines that will "never change". 

I think the Pope sounds more Mormon than many of our current leaders to, when it comes to espousing a foundational Mormon doctrine (Article of faith #9) about continuing revelation.  

Quote

Doctrine cannot be preserved without allowing it to develop, nor can it be tied to an interpretation that is rigid and immutable without demeaning the working of the Holy Spirit. 

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2017/10/11/pope_francis_the_dynamic_word_of_god_cannot_be_moth-balled/1342352

The Pope is leading the way in our troubled world.  Thoughts?  

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6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

No.  You are comparing apples and oranges.

Allowing doctrine to develop is the work of man.
Continuing revelation is the work of God.

People seem not to be able to grasp the difference between a body of truth that has been revealed and hidden and restored again and again VERSUS changes made to that body of truth.

That is how scriptures about God not changing and law being eternal do not conflict with truths like AoF 9.
People are expecting God to reveal things outside of the fixed body of truth for this earth.  It's not going to happen, even if some day we may claim it did.

Care to fit the priesthood ban into that?

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9 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

Care to fit the priesthood ban into that?

You mean an example of when the priesthood or blessings of priesthood was limited by race/lineage at one time and then later given to all?
I think you can probably find a few examples of that yourself very easily.

Or perhaps you are looking for an example of when God reveals his priesthood authority, and man messes with it requiring a correction from God.
I think you can probably find examples of that too.

Now, can you find examples of a time God gave priesthood to animals?  No? 
Or perhaps an example of a time priesthood power was authorized by God for man to turn himself into an eagle?  Still no?

Perhaps there is no priesthood law that allows for such things.  God cannot do whatever he wants.  He is bound by eternal laws and truths.
Allowing doctrine to develop according to society leads to false doctrine.  God and the body of law he operates under cannot be changed.  That law has come and gone on earth in bits and pieces since the beginning of time, but it has never once been allowed to change.  God can reveal more, revoke, reveal less.  But he cannot change it.  The truth is a whole apple pie. We may get a slice here, a slice there.  But no matter how we want to develop the gospel we are not getting a lemon meringue pie.

If man starts "developing doctrine" and making changes to those truths we end in apostasy.
 

Edited by JLHPROF
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14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

No.  You are comparing apples and oranges.

Allowing doctrine to develop is the work of man.
Continuing revelation is the work of God.

People seem not to be able to grasp the difference between a body of truth that has been revealed and hidden and restored again and again VERSUS changes made to that body of truth.

That is how scriptures about God not changing and law being eternal do not conflict with truths like AoF 9.
People are expecting God to reveal things outside of the fixed body of truth for this earth.  It's not going to happen, even if some day we may claim it did.

I see revelation as a line upon line process often happening with fits and starts and very much so entwined in the messy human enterprise.  

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17 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

No.  You are comparing apples and oranges.

Allowing doctrine to develop is the work of man.
Continuing revelation is the work of God.

People seem not to be able to grasp the difference between a body of truth that has been revealed and hidden and restored again and again VERSUS changes made to that body of truth.

That is how scriptures about God not changing and law being eternal do not conflict with truths like AoF 9.
People are expecting God to reveal things outside of the fixed body of truth for this earth.  It's not going to happen, even if some day we may claim it did.

 Sorry, I should explain myself. What I mean to say is that the idea that God reveals a pristine bound set of truth again and again seems  at odds with the reality of things like the  priesthood ban  or JS setting up a system of patriarchal  Authority with the Smith family of the head which overtime transforms into people sealing families in direct lines.

reality just seems a lot more messy than that ideal  definition you gave.

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3 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

 Sorry, I should explain myself. What I mean to say is that the idea that God reveals a pristine bound set of truth again and again seems  at odds with the reality of things like the  priesthood ban  or JS setting up a system of patriarchal  Authority with the Smith family of the head which overtime transforms into people sealing families in direct lines.

reality just seems a lot more messy than that ideal  definition you gave.

That ideal about what revelation should be like is a fairy tale, no offense intended, there is just no evidence to support it.  

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28 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm a big fan of Pope Francis, and it seems like he keeps making statements and implementing policies that are so important and prophetic for our time.  I really think he's an inspired leader, and sometimes he says something that just strikes me as so Mormon, its amazing.  I was thinking about this quote from a recent speech and I'm contrasting this with the statements that we hear from some of our church leaders recently about doctrines that will "never change". 

You talk about the pope's handling of statements and policies.

Then you talk about LDS leader's stance on doctrine.

Those are two very different things.  If you want to talk about doctrine, we can talk about Pope and LDS handling of doctrine.  Or if you want to talk policies/statements about the two groups, we can do that as well.  But you got to pick one thing to talk about.   

28 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I think the Pope sounds more Mormon than many of our current leaders to, when it comes to espousing a foundational Mormon doctrine (Article of faith #9) about continuing revelation.  

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2017/10/11/pope_francis_the_dynamic_word_of_god_cannot_be_moth-balled/1342352

The Pope is leading the way in our troubled world.  Thoughts?  

Catholic doctrine declares the Heavens to be closed and scripture cannot be added to by even God.    It's a stark contrast to LDS beliefs. 

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24 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm a big fan of Pope Francis, and it seems like he keeps making statements and implementing policies that are so important and prophetic for our time.  I really think he's an inspired leader, and sometimes he says something that just strikes me as so Mormon, its amazing.  I was thinking about this quote from a recent speech and I'm contrasting this with the statements that we hear from some of our church leaders recently about doctrines that will "never change". 

I think the Pope sounds more Mormon than many of our current leaders to, when it comes to espousing a foundational Mormon doctrine (Article of faith #9) about continuing revelation.  

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2017/10/11/pope_francis_the_dynamic_word_of_god_cannot_be_moth-balled/1342352

The Pope is leading the way in our troubled world.  Thoughts?  

Do you actually believe that the only reason the Brethren aren't rushing towards the precipice along with everyone else who have lost their way is because they aren't following AofF 9?

Is it your personal approval that is the infallible touchstone for an inspired teaching, or is it the cheering of the many?

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5 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

You talk about the pope's handling of statements and policies.

Then you talk about LDS leader's stance on doctrine.

Those are two very different things.  If you want to talk about doctrine, we can talk about Pope and LDS handling of doctrine.  Or if you want to talk policies/statements about the two groups, we can do that as well.  But you got to pick one thing to talk about.   

Catholic doctrine declares the Heavens to be closed and scripture cannot be added to by even God.    It's a stark contrast to LDS beliefs. 

The quote in the OP about doctrine developing and not being rigid is directly from the Pope.  The Pope is changing the game and going against old Catholic dogma.  

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36 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm a big fan of Pope Francis, and it seems like he keeps making statements and implementing policies that are so important and prophetic for our time.  I really think he's an inspired leader, and sometimes he says something that just strikes me as so Mormon, its amazing.  I was thinking about this quote from a recent speech and I'm contrasting this with the statements that we hear from some of our church leaders recently about doctrines that will "never change". 

I think the Pope sounds more Mormon than many of our current leaders to, when it comes to espousing a foundational Mormon doctrine (Article of faith #9) about continuing revelation.  

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2017/10/11/pope_francis_the_dynamic_word_of_god_cannot_be_moth-balled/1342352

The Pope is leading the way in our troubled world.  Thoughts?  

I don't understand, what have current leaders said that is contrary to Article of faith #9?

Mormons have been leading the way on the idea of an open cannon and continuing revelation for much longer than the Pope - who, by the way, doesn't go as far as accepting an open cannon, he more espouses new interpretation of closed cannon. 

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11 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

 Sorry, I should explain myself. What I mean to say is that the idea that God reveals a pristine bound set of truth again and again seems  at odds with the reality of things like the  priesthood ban  or JS setting up a system of patriarchal  Authority with the Smith family of the head which overtime transforms into people sealing families in direct lines.

reality just seems a lot more messy than that ideal  definition you gave.

Oh I agree with this.
God doesn't reveal a picture perfect, prisitine, impossible to misunderstand truth.  Line upon line etc.
God has an eternal rule book he works from.  He will NEVER violate that book of rules.  Since the time of Adam he has revealed them, sometimes in pieces, sometimes in big chunks. Joseph spoke of the restoration of ALL things in our day so that would include all eternal aspects of the rules for this earth.  Joseph also said that some of the temporal things (law of Moses) would not be restored but eternal things (law of sacrifice) would be.
And yes, we are told certain things were withheld for the last dispensation - endowments for the dead for instance.  But they still fit with the endowment that was in every dispensation and baptism for the dead from Christ's. 

There just seems to be the idea that God will reveal something never seen before in the history of the earth that completely goes against any previous pattern he has established.  
That's the fantasy of many.

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7 minutes ago, kiwi57 said:

Do you actually believe that the only reason the Brethren aren't rushing towards the precipice along with everyone else who have lost their way is because they aren't following AofF 9?

Is it your personal approval that is the infallible touchstone for an inspired teaching, or is it the cheering of the many?

Your points are too vague, what precipice? Who's lost their way and how/why.  what cheering of the many?  I'm confused 

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6 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

The quote in the OP about doctrine developing and not being rigid is directly from the Pope.  The Pope is changing the game and going against old Catholic dogma.  

Can you show me where Francis declares God may reveal new scripture, as LDS believe?

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5 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don't understand, what have current leaders said that is contrary to Article of faith #9?

Mormons have been leading the way on the idea of an open cannon and continuing revelation for much longer than the Pope - who, by the way, doesn't go as far as accepting an open cannon, he more espouses new interpretation of closed cannon. 

The idea that some doctrines will "never change" goes against AoF #9.  Also I think you're selling the Pope short, he's been changing the message significantly on many different issues that I've seen.  

Mormons for all practical purposes have a closed cannon too, how many revelations have been added since the days of JS?  

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1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

Can you show me where Francis declares God may reveal new scripture, as LDS believe?

Ahh you're specifically making a claim about cannon, but my OP is about doctrine.  I'd love an open cannon for all churches, but neither Mormons or Catholics seem very open to that in practice.  AoF # 9 is talking about revelation specifically, not necessarily cannon.  

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5 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Ahh you're specifically making a claim about cannon, but my OP is about doctrine.  I'd love an open cannon for all churches, but neither Mormons or Catholics seem very open to that in practice.  AoF # 9 is talking about revelation specifically, not necessarily cannon.  

What AofF9 is talking about is known as "public revelation" in Catholic theology and it is specifically declared closed.  Catholic theology allows for "development" of existing doctrine, not revealing of new doctrine.  

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17 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Your points are too vague, what precipice? Who's lost their way and how/why.  what cheering of the many?  I'm confused 

I can see that you are confused.

The precipice refers to the abandonment of the authentic family in favour of modernly popular substitute(s) therefor.

Everyone who thinks popularity is preferable to righteousness has lost their way.

You're welcome.

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11 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

What AofF9 is talking about is known as "public revelation" in Catholic theology and it is specifically declared closed.  Catholic theology allows for "development" of existing doctrine, not revealing of new doctrine.  

You say potato I say potaaaato.  The reality is Pope Francis is changing many long held doctrines, although some Catholic purists might dispute that claim, I think it's clearly evident.   

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1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm a big fan of Pope Francis, and it seems like he keeps making statements and implementing policies that are so important and prophetic for our time.  I really think he's an inspired leader...

Interesting that you're reaction is so opposite to that of all of my devout Catholic friends, who just keep rolling their eyes and holding their breath for the next bit of what they deem as hippy-dippy fluff.

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14 minutes ago, kiwi57 said:

I can see that you are confused.

The precipice refers to the abandonment of the authentic family in favour of modernly popular substitute(s) therefor.

Everyone who thinks popularity is preferable to righteousness has lost their way.

You're welcome.

Did our polygamous prophets have "authentic families"?  

Since when was the gospel an anti popularity gospel?  Lots of unpopular ideas out there you could choose from, I don't think popularity is a measuring stick for ethics.  

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"Cannon" = "Canon".  Just sayin'! =@:shok::blink: 

Edited by Kenngo1969
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3 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Interesting that you're reaction is so opposite to that of all of my devout Catholic friends, who just keep rolling their eyes and holding their breath for the next bit of what they deem as hippy-dippy fluff.

Conservative Catholics are like conservative evangelicals or Mormons or you name the group, they don't like change.  

What's sad for conservative Mormons is that change should be our MO.  It's a fundamental doctrine of the restoration movement, yet that evolutionary tendency to be fearful of change is a powerful drive.  

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Just now, hope_for_things said:

Did our polygamous prophets have "authentic families"?    

Yes.  Each child had a mother and a father.  Each wife had a husband.  Each husband had a wife.  All were sealed in the covenant for eternity.
It doesn't get more authentic.

Quote

Since when was the gospel an anti popularity gospel?  Lots of unpopular ideas out there you could choose from, I don't think popularity is a measuring stick for ethics.

I Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

"When “Mormonism” finds favor with the wicked in this land, it will have gone into the shade; but until the power of the Priesthood is gone, “Mormonism” will never become popular with the wicked. “Mormonism” is not one farthing better than it was in the days of Joseph."  - Brigham Young

Popularity is not in the plan if we are doing what is right.

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