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Las Vegas shooting

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The church released this statement.http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/statement-las-vegas-shooting

To all of those affected by the horrific events in Las Vegas, we offer our deepest condolences and heartfelt prayers. We pray for those who are mourning the loss of loved ones and for those who are seeking to recover from the physical and emotional wounds they are suffering. May God bless them with the peace and comfort only He can provide in such tragic and heartbreaking moments.

I noticed this possible Mormon connection for one of the young victims. 

"With an incredibly heavy heart. My sweetest nephew has passed away. He was the most kind and loving soul. Everyone who met him, loved him. His contagious laugh and smile. He was truly an amazing person. He will be missed by so many, he is loved by so many. So many awesome talents. I can’t say enough good about this sweet soul. Because of the gospel and plan of salvation I have faith we will be with him again. Quinton Robbins, I, and your entire family will miss you so much everyday. Always will be thinking about you. Please pray for his parents and siblings at this time. Please also respect their privacy as this is a devastating loss that is incredibly painful for the families.

For those who are asking us how you can help. Prayer will be the biggest help. For them and the other victims and families. Here is also gofundme page that was set up by a member of Quints family that can help towards funeral costs." https://www.buzzfeed.com/coralewis/these-are-the-victims-of-the-las-vegas-shooting?utm_term=.eekm1XnR8#.pmdMDOzPK 

😪

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Thanks for posting that. I tried to buy tickets to that show and they were sold out. We saw Jason Aldean Friday night in Wheatland, CA. my prayers go out to the whole Aldean Army.. They are an Army of farmers.

 

 

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16 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Pray like everything depended on God. Work like everything depended on you. There is no good reason for a civilian in the US to have a fully automatic weapon.

So agree. :good:

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On 10/3/2017 at 2:39 AM, thesometimesaint said:

Pray like everything depended on God. Work like everything depended on you. There is no good reason for a civilian in the US to have a fully automatic weapon.

The perp did not have a fully automatic weapon, but he did have the closest thing to it.  Possession of fully automatic weapons in the USA is illegal, unless one has a Federal Firearms License, and the ATF monitors that very closely.

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According to his brother, the perp had no religious or political affiliations.  However, he did like to spend his time gambling.  He planned carefully for this horrific event for weeks (or longer).  Whatever his motive, I would suggest that it was heavily influenced by selfishness and overarching evil.

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The perp did not have a fully automatic weapon, but he did have the closest thing to it.  Possession of fully automatic weapons in the USA is illegal, unless one has a Federal Firearms License, and the ATF monitors that very closely.

He "used semi-automatic weapons outfitted with a “bump stock” device that allowed him to quickly fire multiple rounds". I myself like guns, but there is no reason for us to have a powerful semi-automatic rifle. Police officers couldn't stop that guy for 10 minutes. Without a powerful weapon it is nearly impossible to injure and kill 600 people for 10 minutes. The fact that semi-automatic rifles are still legal in the US proves Congress lacks common sense.  Semi-automatic rifles need to be illegal for the same reason that fully automatic weapons, bazookas, grenade launchers, and many other powerful weapons are illegal. 

Edited by SamuelTheLamanite

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44 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

He "used semi-automatic weapons outfitted with a “bump stock” device that allowed him to quickly fire multiple rounds". I myself like guns, but there is no reason for us to have a powerful semi-automatic rifle. Police officers couldn't stop that guy for 10 minutes. Without a powerful weapon it is nearly impossible to injure and kill 600 people for 10 minutes. The fact that semi-automatic rifles are still legal in the US proves that Congress lacks common sense.  Semi-automatic rifles need to be illegal for the same reason that fully automatic weapons, bazookas, grenade launchers, and many other weapons are illegal.  

As long as you vote for yokels as legislators and executives, we will continue to have ridiculous gun policies -- formulated by people who know nothing about guns.

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On 10/4/2017 at 7:49 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

The perp did not have a fully automatic weapon, but he did have the closest thing to it.  Possession of fully automatic weapons in the USA is illegal, unless one has a Federal Firearms License, and the ATF monitors that very closely.

Your argument is mere quibble. I'm considered an excellent marksman, at least I was before I became disabled. I could drawn, aim, fire 3 rounds, and re-holster, in 3 seconds. A "Bump Stock" allows the shooter to fire 400 rounds per minute. That is about as close to a fully automatic weapon as they come, but by a different name. In theory ATF does keep a close eye on them, the reality is that it doesn't keep that close of an eye on them.

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2 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Your argument is mere quibble. I'm considered an excellent marksman, at least I was before I became disabled. I could drawn, aim, fire 3 rounds, and re-holster, in 3 seconds. A "Bump Stock" allows the shooter to fire 400 rounds per minute. That is about as close to a fully automatic weapon as they come, but by a different name. In theory ATF does keep a close eye on them, the reality is that it doesn't keep that close of an eye on them.

The problem in all these discussions is that those who know nearly nothing about weapons spend a lot of time pontificating about what the facts are and what needs to be done.

Yokels need to learn the facts first, and then to make reasonable judgments..  The facts are these:  Bump stocks enhance semi-automatic capability and speed enormously, but are not fully automatic.  To you that is a "mere quibble," but it is a fact.  I have no problem with banning them, but that is a legislative and law-enforcement matter which will have to be decided.  Because there is such polarization and mendacity on both sides of the debate, is difficult to make any sort of reasonable progress on anything.

The ATF and other organizations (CBI) closely monitor fully automatic weapons (not bump stocks) to the degree that their usual constitutional rights are basically denied.  If you have an FFL, you are basically owned by the ATF and CBI.  Your notion that such is not the case is absurd.   It is much easier to access (steal) fully automatic weapons through law enforcement agencies and the National Guard, Army Reserve, or regular service armories.  Criminal  gangs can easily access all of the fully automatic weapons they wish and can call upon their gunsmiths to make a regular conversion of appropriate weapons to full auto.  No bump stocks needed.  Fully automatic weapons can be bought for a price on the streets of Los Angeles.

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The problem in all these discussions is that those who know nearly nothing about weapons spend a lot of time pontificating about what the facts are and what needs to be done.

Yokels need to learn the facts first, and then to make reasonable judgments..  The facts are these:  Bump stocks enhance semi-automatic capability and speed enormously, but are not fully automatic.  To you that is a "mere quibble," but it is a fact.  I have no problem with banning them, but that is a legislative and law-enforcement matter which will have to be decided.  Because there is such polarization and mendacity on both sides of the debate, is difficult to make any sort of reasonable progress on anything.

The ATF and other organizations (CBI) closely monitor fully automatic weapons (not bump stocks) to the degree that their usual constitutional rights are basically denied.  If you have an FFL, you are basically owned by the ATF and CBI.  Your notion that such is not the case is absurd.   It is much easier to access (steal) fully automatic weapons through law enforcement agencies and the National Guard, Army Reserve, or regular service armories.  Criminal  gangs can easily access all of the fully automatic weapons they wish and can call upon their gunsmiths to make a regular conversion of appropriate weapons to full auto.  No bump stocks needed.  Fully automatic weapons can be bought for a price on the streets of Los Angeles.

I owned and legally carried for many a year.

SEE Quibble | Define Quibble at Dictionary.com

www.dictionary.com/browse/quibble

Quibble definition, an instance of the use of ambiguous, prevaricating, or irrelevant language or arguments to evade a point at issue.

As I said yes in theory the ATF does have rules/laws against fully automatic weapons. But the reality is that if one is willing to violate the law, or get one through private sales, inheritance,  or gun show loop hole, they can get one.

SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show_loophole

Ps; If I can't convince you maybe the ATF can.

SEE http://crooksandliars.com/2017/10/retired-atf-agent-says-bump-stocks-should

Edited by thesometimesaint

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15 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

I owned and legally carried for many a year.

SEE Quibble | Define Quibble at Dictionary.com

www.dictionary.com/browse/quibble

Quibble definition, an instance of the use of ambiguous, prevaricating, or irrelevant language or arguments to evade a point at issue.

As I said yes in theory the ATF does have rules/laws against fully automatic weapons. But the reality is that if one is willing to violate the law, or get one through private sales, inheritance,  or gun show loop hole, they can get one.

SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show_loophole

What I said, good buddy.  I was a U.S. Marine Corps armorer.

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At this point banning them is like closing the barn door after the horses escape. It might make us feel better, but I don't see it achieving the goal.

Thank you for your wonderful service, as a vet too I really mean that.

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10 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

At this point banning them is like closing the barn door after the horses escape. It might make us feel better, but I don't see it achieving the goal.

What goal? Because your analogy suggests that said goal is to retroactively make the shooting not happen.

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11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

What goal? Because your analogy suggests that said goal is to retroactively make the shooting not happen.

We don't have the ability to go back in time. But we can do somethings about what we do now, and in the future. The Bump Stocks are still made and available. Stopping their production won't make them not available in the short run, but will slowly reduce their number over time.

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I saw a discussion on FB the other day that had Canadians saying that Americans are killing themselves so maybe Canada and Mexico could come in and divide the spoils. I would like KFC and Pepsi but I am willing to negotiate on their new coleslaw<_<

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14 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I saw a discussion on FB the other day that had Canadians saying that Americans are killing themselves so maybe Canada and Mexico could come in and divide the spoils. I would like KFC and Pepsi but I am willing to negotiate on their new coleslaw<_<

You crack me up...what...no apple pie???

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13 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

You crack me up...what...no apple pie???

maybe from Marie Callendars! those pies are like a meal!

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I watched a video which showed the difference in firing rates between a semi- auto and one with a bump stock. It was chilling. As close to going fully auto as I can imagine. If such modifications are not now illegal, I would hope that they soon would become so. That said, as has been said, no amount of legislation will stop a determined person from obtain illegal firearms. This killer had planned this massacre for a long time and may have had plans for even a more destructive attack at other venues. He had shopped around at different gun stores and spread his purchases around, likely to avoid raising any flags. Mental issues involved? Medications involved? Ideologies involved? We may never know .

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23 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

We don't have the ability to go back in time. But we can do somethings about what we do now, and in the future. The Bump Stocks are still made and available. Stopping their production won't make them not available in the short run, but will slowly reduce their number over time.

This is, to the best of my knowledge, the only incident in which one of these devices was used to commit a crime. If there are others, they aren't particularly noteworthy. The devices have been available for decades. Heck, one of my own sons owns one and from time to time he plays around with it out at the local gravel pit.  I used to own one, but couldn't make it work, and eventually tossed it.  By the way, these things are not hugely difficult to make, if you have any metal fabrication skills (and equipment). 

Some of us apparently believe in magic.  It is almost as if we are trying to punish the object used in a crime.  Like in olden days, when an animal would be executed if it somehow caused a death.

The ultimate thing to remember is that law-abiding people rarely commit crimes. And a law-abiding person who possesses a dangerous implement will likely never use it to harm someone. But by definition those who are not law-abiding, and who are willing to kill, don't give a fig about whether there's a law prohibiting the possession and use of an implement, and will have one regardless.  

And we are deceiving ourselves if we think passing a law forbidding manufacture or possession or use of this "bump stock" thing is going to save any lives. A ban will be just another useless exercise in making ourselves feel better about having "done something."

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

This is, to the best of my knowledge, the only incident in which one of these devices was used to commit a crime. If there are others, they aren't particularly noteworthy. The devices have been available for decades. Heck, one of my own sons owns one and from time to time he plays around with it out at the local gravel pit.  I used to own one, but couldn't make it work, and eventually tossed it.  By the way, these things are not hugely difficult to make, if you have any metal fabrication skills (and equipment). 

Some of us apparently believe in magic.  It is almost as if we are trying to punish the object used in a crime.  Like in olden days, when an animal would be executed if it somehow caused a death.

The ultimate thing to remember is that law-abiding people rarely commit crimes. And a law-abiding person who possesses a dangerous implement will likely never use it to harm someone. But by definition those who are not law-abiding, and who are willing to kill, don't give a fig about whether there's a law prohibiting the possession and use of an implement, and will have one regardless.  

And we are deceiving ourselves if we think passing a law forbidding manufacture or possession or use of this "bump stock" thing is going to save any lives. A ban will be just another useless exercise in making ourselves feel better about having "done something."

I've never found them to be of much use. The three most important things about using a firearm are shot placement, shot placement, and shot placement. Weapons of War really have no place in the civilian world. A little bit of ingenuity and a rubber band will make one too. The rounds I carried were $3 a pop, back over 30 years ago. Not something to just go plinking at paper targets, or tin cans with.

Objects can't be punished, but we can make them safer to use. IE; Automobiles have become very safe to use. It is the driver that is the problem. Firearms are inherently unsafe, they are  designed for one thing. To kill. Please don't misunderstand I have no desire to ban all firearms. We are just not going to put that genie back in that bottle. I am arguing for common sense controls on them.

The flaw in that argument is that telling the difference between a Law-abiding Citizen and a crazed Mass Murderer is the length of time it takes to pull the trigger. Does that mean that because we will have some that are willing to commit MURDER we should not have laws against it? That I must say is rather a specious argument.

It is true that immediately stopping their manufacture won't stop the loss of life. But it will over time decrease it. IE; No one today really worries about knights in shinning armor, carrying a lance, riding a horse into battle.

SEE https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=knights+in+shinning+armor%2C+carrying+a+lance%2C+riding+a+horse+into+battle.&fr=yhs-adk-adk_sbnt&hspart=adk&hsimp=yhs-adk_sbnt&imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2F736x%2Fa8%2Fd1%2F36%2Fa8d1361a2dd83cacea2723aea0c78d9c.jpg#id=2&iurl=https%3A%2F%2Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2F736x%2Fa8%2Fd1%2F36%2Fa8d1361a2dd83cacea2723aea0c78d9c.jpg&action=click

 

 

Edited by thesometimesaint

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

Does that mean that because we will have some that are willing to commit MURDER we should not have laws against it? That I must say is rather a specious argument.

 

It is specious, and I'm not making it. At least, not that particular one.

But if we were to outlaw the possession of all implements with which one could use to commit murder, well then we'd all have to go about stark naked. Even then it wouldn't be enough. I'm cool with outlawing private ownership of nuclear weapons, poison gas, hand grenades, fully automatic firearms, and so on. But when you start going down the road Scotland has been traveling, requiring registration of air guns, that's when I have an issue. You might as well start registering kitchen knives.  In fact, registering kitchen knives might make more sense than air guns -- more people have been murdered with kitchen knives than air guns, I'm pretty sure.

Edited by Stargazer

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On 10/5/2017 at 8:24 AM, SamuelTheLamanite said:

He "used semi-automatic weapons outfitted with a “bump stock” device that allowed him to quickly fire multiple rounds". I myself like guns, but there is no reason for us to have a powerful semi-automatic rifle. Police officers couldn't stop that guy for 10 minutes. Without a powerful weapon it is nearly impossible to injure and kill 600 people for 10 minutes. The fact that semi-automatic rifles are still legal in the US proves Congress lacks common sense.  Semi-automatic rifles need to be illegal for the same reason that fully automatic weapons, bazookas, grenade launchers, and many other powerful weapons are illegal. 

Not sure I agree here. A semi-automatic means the weapon loads itself after each shot and each pull of the trigger fires. Almost every firearm except some shotguns is semi-automatic. A revolver is a semi-automatic. Unless you are calling for a complete gun ban outside of shotguns and muskets banning semi-automatics is silly.

There is a call to ban these modifications. The ATF considered doing it a while back but there are jursidictional issues because it is not a firearm but a modification. Quickest way to get these off the market would be an act of Congress.

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4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

This is, to the best of my knowledge, the only incident in which one of these devices was used to commit a crime. If there are others, they aren't particularly noteworthy. The devices have been available for decades. Heck, one of my own sons owns one and from time to time he plays around with it out at the local gravel pit.  I used to own one, but couldn't make it work, and eventually tossed it.  By the way, these things are not hugely difficult to make, if you have any metal fabrication skills (and equipment). 

Some of us apparently believe in magic.  It is almost as if we are trying to punish the object used in a crime.  Like in olden days, when an animal would be executed if it somehow caused a death.

The ultimate thing to remember is that law-abiding people rarely commit crimes. And a law-abiding person who possesses a dangerous implement will likely never use it to harm someone. But by definition those who are not law-abiding, and who are willing to kill, don't give a fig about whether there's a law prohibiting the possession and use of an implement, and will have one regardless.  

And we are deceiving ourselves if we think passing a law forbidding manufacture or possession or use of this "bump stock" thing is going to save any lives. A ban will be just another useless exercise in making ourselves feel better about having "done something."

The problem is that this is a device that serves no function except to turn a weapon into a mass-people killing thing. It has no reasonable use in hunting or self-defense. Your same argument about innocent objects would apply equally to anthrax or privately owned hydrogen bombs. Yeah, it is the person using them that is the problem but we can make that person less of a problem by making it harder or impossible for them to get these items.

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