Jump to content
Scott Lloyd

First Amendment protects God-given moral agency

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

Actually the goons in the early 1930s and the current antifa rioters , have many characteristics in common. That the early actions of the Nazi goons eventually led to the election/rise to power of a party that the vast majority of the world despises , should be of concern to all who see the violent actions of Antifa and the apparent inaction of elected officials and the police to quell the behavior. When police are told to stand down as in  the Berkley  riots and has been suggested in the Charlottesville mess, one has to wonder whose agenda in being advanced. Berkley claims a $ 600,000 security cost to hold the Ben Shapiro speech. What group were they using the security against? Was it against those who were for free speech or those against it?

No. If you go back to 1930s Germany the three main political parties had goons intimidating voters and being thugs. The Nazis were just better at it and once they got control of the Reichstag they shut down the hooligans working for the opposition (the Social Democratic Party and the Communist Party). Those goons are analogous to Antifa. The equivalent of the SA "Brownshirts" are the white supremacists marching with Nazi and Confederate flags calling for throwing out or killing all the Jews and demanding a pure White state.

One side uses imagery suggesting they want to put fellow citizens into ovens and gas chambers and tear down democracy and destroy their opposition. The other opposes them and thinks we should not kill have government sanctioned killing or tear down democracy. Not even remotely equivalent.

Edited by The Nehor

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Scott...can you help me understand exactly which specific religious freedom is under assault and which specific belief do you personally hold that you can no longer believe in?  I guess I ask because I am unaware of any religious freedom that is under attack...so I'm hoping that you can enlighten me. Thanks in advance. 

From my view, religious freedom, and freedom in general, is not under any type of attack. No one telling the church, or any religious organization what they can and can't believe, nor what they can and can't practice.  Case in point is the Nov. 2015 policy that our church came out with.  Many people feel it is very discriminatory, but no one one, not the government, or anyone else has claimed the LDS church does not have the right to make such a policy.  

In this current climate, we have people like Dalian Oaks yammering on about religious freedom and confusing it with public opinion.  The church has not lost any freedoms, but it has lost big time in the arena of public opinion.  In a few short years since the passing of GBH, the church as squandered any social capital that it did have by moving into the political area and doubling down on legislation that would limit the freedoms of a group of citizens of this country.  The social and political backlash from these actions has been swift and brutal.  We are all free to choose our actions, but we can't always choose  the consequences.  And some times, that can be one hard lesson.  Just ask the folks at the COB.

Share this post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

From my view, religious freedom, and freedom in general, is not under any type of attack. No one telling the church, or any religious organization what they can and can't believe, nor what they can and can't practice.  Case in point is the Nov. 2015 policy that our church came out with.  Many people feel it is very discriminatory, but no one one, not the government, or anyone else has claimed the LDS church does not have the right to make such a policy.  

In this current climate, we have people like Dalian Oaks yammering on about religious freedom and confusing it with public opinion.  The church has not lost any freedoms, but it has lost big time in the arena of public opinion.  In a few short years since the passing of GBH, the church as squandered any social capital that it did have by moving into the political area and doubling down on legislation that would limit the freedoms of a group of citizens of this country.  The social and political backlash from these actions has been swift and brutal.  We are all free to choose our actions, but we can't always choose  the consequences.  And some times, that can be one hard lesson.  Just ask the folks at the COB.

Unfortunately being loud mouthed and obnoxious is almost part of our mandate. We have exemplars like Abinadi, Jeremiah, and Isaiah who were unrepentant contrarians whose teachings bordered on treason. Historically prophets and apostles often spent time in prison or in hiding. We have had a couple of good decades but it could never last. Oh well. :( 

Share this post


Link to post
14 hours ago, Calm said:

So they are equivalent if they do that or not?

"Equivalent" is your word, not mine. I'm talking about the esteem I hold them in. 

Yes, Nazism and fascism have long histories, but given its trajectory, I shudder to think what the Antifa movement could become. 

I don't see anything praiseworthy about it. Opposition to other odious movements and ideologies is not nearly enough to recommend it in my view. 

And if you please, this isn't a thread about Antifa. Yes, I mentioned it in the OP, but it was only a parenthetical comment. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And id you please, this isn't a thread about Antifa. Yes, I mentioned it in the OP, but it was only a parenthetical comment. 

It took up over half of the original post not counting things you quoted and you had to expect this reaction.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, but they mostly use physical violence on white supremacists and Nazis. Free Speech does not mean you have a right not to have your speech protested against.

I absolutely agree with that. 

I only get upset when freedom of speech is cut off altogether or when interested  listeners are deprived of access, as when radical and violent pressure groups disrupt or force the cancellation of speaking engagements on college campuses or elsewhere. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd

Share this post


Link to post
49 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It took up over half of the original post not counting things you quoted and you had to expect this reaction.

I believe it was obvious that my intended focus was on the content of the CN editorial. The part you refer to was clearly identified as a "parenthetical comment."

But if it was not obvious, I'm saying so now. 

And board rules prohibit political  discussions. I shouldn't have brought up Antifa. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I honor people like your dad. I would not dishonor them by comparing them to today's lawless Antifas.

 

But the NAZIS are the same as they were during WW2. I make no excuse for some few in the modern day Antifa movement, any more than I make excuse for modern day NAZIS. That being said there are no nice people in the NAZI movement.

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I believe it was obvious that my intended focus was on the content of the CN editorial. The part you refer to was clearly identified as a "parenthetical comment."

But if it was not obvious, I'm saying so now. 

And board rules prohibit political  discussions. I shouldn't have brought up Antifa. 

Pretty sure those are more like guidelines. At least until threads get shut down. ;) 

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I absolutely agree with that. 

I only get upset when freedom of speech is cut off altogether or when interested  listeners are deprived of access, as when radical and violent pressure groups disrupt or force the cancellation of speaking engagements on college campuses or elsewhere. 

I get upset when someone impunes all of Berkeley and all of those using their free speach rights and lumps them with a small violent minority

Share this post


Link to post

I wonder how Christians would react if there was an organized day where every business, held a "We don't serve or sell to Christians day" because we don't agree with their "lifestyle "

would that be an attack on religion?

Share this post


Link to post
12 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Be that as it may, it is hardly a justification for minimizing the behavior of Antifa.

 

Most of them are dumb kids who watched V is for Vendetta too many times. At the most recent altercation they did protect some clergy from attacks by Nazis, so at least they've done some positive things.

Nazis and white supremacists have so much blood on their hands it will never come clean.

Share this post


Link to post
10 hours ago, sunstoned said:

From my view, religious freedom, and freedom in general, is not under any type of attack. No one telling the church, or any religious organization what they can and can't believe, nor what they can and can't practice.  Case in point is the Nov. 2015 policy that our church came out with.  Many people feel it is very discriminatory, but no one one, not the government, or anyone else has claimed the LDS church does not have the right to make such a policy.  

In this current climate, we have people like Dalian Oaks yammering on about religious freedom and confusing it with public opinion.  The church has not lost any freedoms, but it has lost big time in the arena of public opinion.  In a few short years since the passing of GBH, the church as squandered any social capital that it did have by moving into the political area and doubling down on legislation that would limit the freedoms of a group of citizens of this country.  The social and political backlash from these actions has been swift and brutal.  We are all free to choose our actions, but we can't always choose  the consequences.  And some times, that can be one hard lesson.  Just ask the folks at the COB.

The Muslim ban represents a threat to religious freedom.

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, california boy said:

I wonder how Christians would react if there was an organized day where every business, held a "We don't serve or sell to Christians day" because we don't agree with their "lifestyle "

would that be an attack on religion?

What are you talking about?

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, california boy said:

I get upset when someone impunes all of Berkeley and all of those using their free speach rights and lumps them with a small violent minority

Are you saying I've done that or only that it has been done?

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Gray said:

Most of them are dumb kids who watched V is for Vendetta too many times.

"There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action." -- Goethe

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, Gray said:

Most of them are dumb kids who watched V is for Vendetta too many times. At the most recent altercation they did protect some clergy from attacks by Nazis, so at least they've done some positive things.

Nazis and white supremacists have so much blood on their hands it will never come clean.

My personal favorite  Antifa group considers it their goal to redeem certain genres of Japanese video games which they consider to have been coopted by the alt-Right and they want to win them back.

Edited by The Nehor

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, california boy said:

I wonder how Christians would react if there was an organized day where every business, held a "We don't serve or sell to Christians day" because we don't agree with their "lifestyle "

would that be an attack on religion?

Just depends on the type of Christian. ;):lol: 

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, california boy said:

I wonder how Christians would react if there was an organized day where every business, held a "We don't serve or sell to Christians day" because we don't agree with their "lifestyle "

would that be an attack on religion?

Can they make it the Sabbath and do it weekly? Many members could use the help.

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, california boy said:

I wonder how Christians would react if there was an organized day where every business, held a "We don't serve or sell to Christians day" because we don't agree with their "lifestyle "

would that be an attack on religion?

Can you imagine the response of the LDS Church if a group was pressing for an going, DAILY constitutionally-protected ability to decline goods and services to others based on objecting to such potential customers' religious lifestyle?

Would the church and it's  members classify THAT as "an attack on religion/religious freedom"?

Edited by Daniel2

Share this post


Link to post

I wonder what the impact that might have on the Supreme Court when they see others discrimating based on "religious lifestyle "

Share this post


Link to post
18 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Can you imagine the response of the LDS Church if a group was pressing for an going, DAILY constitutionally-protected ability to decline goods and services to others based on objecting to such potential customers' religious lifestyle?

Would the church and it's  members classify THAT as "an attack on religion/religious freedom"?

Been there, done that. It didn't work out well for the LDS.

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Been there, done that. It didn't work out well for the LDS.

What happened?

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Daniel2 said:

Can you imagine the response of the LDS Church if a group was pressing for an going, DAILY constitutionally-protected ability to decline goods and services to others based on objecting to such potential customers' religious lifestyle?

Would the church and it's  members classify THAT as "an attack on religion/religious freedom"?

I can't say what the response of the Church would be, but I'm fairly certain I wouldn't get spun up over it.

Share this post


Link to post
16 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I can't say what the response of the Church would be, but I'm fairly certain I wouldn't get spun up over it.

Are you saying you wouldn't consider it an attack on religion or religious liberty if businesses and government agents and contractors were free to refuse services to any given citizen based on the religion of said potential patron?

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×