Jump to content
bsjkki

Mormon Newsroom and Suicide

Recommended Posts

23 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Perhaps.  But I think being "over-connected" technologically and, correspondingly, being "under-connected" in the real world is huge factor in behavioral health, both for young people and for those who are not so young.

I think the current usage of technology interferes with kids having time and space to be alone and process life before getting dumped on more.  I have never been a fan of Sesame Street since I started watching kids react to it.  I get that they figured it was best to teach to the children's current attention span, which was very short and desiring 'loud', vibrant input, but I think what they did was deprive kids of learning patience and how to deal with boredom and led to an expectation that quality takes little time and effort.  Video games and instant communication with friends as well as expanding potential 'friends' astronomically with little effort has added to the problem with that generation's kids.

Add to that the enormous range of choices kids have these days in what is available to them to fill their time, even among the not so well off and often the picture of having it all in the entertainment media, it must be hard to be satisfied with one's choices and not constantly wondering if it would be better to make a different choice...secondguessing oneself can trigger a lot of anxiety.

Share this post


Link to post
11 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Agree, and add in the November policy and several quotes by church leaders through the years, then you have a recipe for disaster for LDS gay individuals feeling triggered. 

The back and forth is so confusing.  The church supports certain things..and then sweeps that all away with policies and other things.   I am just confused.  That being said, any acknowledgement of youth..all youth..and those who feel less than...is a good step from the church.

Share this post


Link to post
15 minutes ago, Calm said:

When cultures are in periods of high flux, anxiety and depression flourish.  I tend to be a fan of English lit of stories from the late 1800s to right before WW II.  They are often full of tales of upperclass lost youth and young adults who don't know what they are supposed to be doing (and often end up doing nothing) and don't expect that putting effort into life will yield any results.  The culture of their parents was disappearing due to the lack of resources as well as the change in class structure because of technology.  This was reflected in political turmoil and uncertain, but massive power struggles.

We have a period of high culture change, with clashing between what was and what is and uncertainty of what is to come.  Add to that the extreme emotional nature of politics and it shouldn't be surprising that youth are having a hard time dealing with it.  What may be complicating this time period is an acceptance of emotional and mental instability (we have moved past telling people to grit their teeth and endure, stiff upper lip sort of thing), but still lack effective tools for healing available to most of our society.  So we have a much more public viewing of inner turmoil, but all that does is add to the sense of being overwhelmed and helpless as a society at this point.

The signs of the times from D&C 88 include this: "And all things shall be in commotion; and surely, men’s hearts shall fail them; for fear shall come upon all people." Some can say the world is not worse off today than it ever was, and in most ways is better off than it it ever was, and yet we have the poison pill of "commotion." I'd say that when suicide becomes a "viable option" to the point where even children's hearts fail them so that the only relief is to kill themselves, the world is nearing a point where only the Lord is going to save it from itself.

Share this post


Link to post
49 minutes ago, Calm said:

When cultures are in periods of high flux, anxiety and depression flourish.  I tend to be a fan of English lit of stories from the late 1800s to right before WW II.  They are often full of tales of upperclass lost youth and young adults who don't know what they are supposed to be doing (and often end up doing nothing) and don't expect that putting effort into life will yield any results.  The culture of their parents was disappearing due to the lack of resources as well as the change in class structure because of technology.  This was reflected in political turmoil and uncertain, but massive power struggles.

We have a period of high culture change, with clashing between what was and what is and uncertainty of what is to come.  Add to that the extreme emotional nature of politics and it shouldn't be surprising that youth are having a hard time dealing with it.  What may be complicating this time period is an acceptance of emotional and mental instability (we have moved past telling people to grit their teeth and endure, stiff upper lip sort of thing), but still lack effective tools for healing available to most of our society.  So we have a much more public viewing of inner turmoil, but all that does is add to the sense of being overwhelmed and helpless as a society at this point.

Personally, I do not feel it is outside societal change that is at the top of the list, but almost complete breakdown of the family that is most at fault. Probably half of the kids in the US are in single parent homes, and as a consequence get little parenting. I am not blaming the single parent, but single parents have to work to support their children. It is just not the same as having a mom at home when you get home from school, and a dad to discuss guy things with. Personally, my family was my bedrock. If I grew up in the modern, single parent family, I just don't know. I am sure I would be a different person, and would have had much more social anxiety. I acknowledge that our society is changing faster, and that can be a stressor, but I believe the largest part of that change is the breakdown of the family unit. Single kids have no siblings to provide support, no parent is at home, etc. Hence, tech is becoming the baby sitter, and very very little on TV and social tech teaches good, positive values. Advertising is about self and self gratification. And on the whole a good Christian environment is probably the minority experience. All these things add up to lots of trouble for kids.

Share this post


Link to post
44 minutes ago, CV75 said:

The signs of the times from D&C 88 include this: "And all things shall be in commotion; and surely, men’s hearts shall fail them; for fear shall come upon all people." Some can say the world is not worse off today than it ever was, and in most ways is better off than it it ever was, and yet we have the poison pill of "commotion." I'd say that when suicide becomes a "viable option" to the point where even children's hearts fail them so that the only relief is to kill themselves, the world is nearing a point where only the Lord is going to save it from itself.

Stress occurs with positive events as well as negative.  Too much "commotion" (I like the term "clutter") could definitely be a fundamental part of the problem.

Share this post


Link to post
59 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

This probably explains why I'll never be in any sort of a position to call these kinds of shots, but if I were, at the pre-camp orientation meeting several weeks in advance, I might say, "Insofar as possible [since some of us have to use technology constantly for work: I'm tethered to a phone sitting in front of a computer screen at work as I type this :rolleyes:], we're going on a technology fast.  You'd better taper off and wean yourselves down to nothing by the time we leave for camp ..." :D 

That would probably be a good idea!

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Personally, I do not feel it is outside societal change that is at the top of the list, but almost complete breakdown of the family that is most at fault. Probably half of the kids in the US are in single parent homes, and as a consequence get little parenting. I am not blaming the single parent, but single parents have to work to support their children. It is just not the same as having a mom at home when you get home from school, and a dad to discuss guy things with. Personally, my family was my bedrock. If I grew up in the modern, single parent family, I just don't know. I am sure I would be a different person, and would have had much more social anxiety. I acknowledge that our society is changing faster, and that can be a stressor, but I believe the largest part of that change is the breakdown of the family unit.

So what of the families with two parents having kids with anxieties, etc?  Most of the kids I know with severe problems are in stable homes with two parents (most families I know are stable, two parents; not saying higher rates for single parent families is unlikely, just saying I don't see it as the only or primary issue).

Edited by Calm

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Perhaps.  But I think being "over-connected" technologically and, correspondingly, being "under-connected" in the real world is huge factor in behavioral health, both for young people and for those who are not so young.

Maybe it's just because I didn't have a cell phone or video games when I was a kid, but I have a hard time seeing technology as being one of the primary causes of mental health issues. I agree that we should be more aware of how technology can affect the development of kids, but it seems like a lot of young people go through some really rough stuff that is more likely to cause long-term problems, whether it be bullying, family problems, deaths of loved ones, or whatever. I think a lot of young adults in the US have a hard time with the perception that the world is sliding backwards into insanity and hate. Also, economic opportunities for a lot of people setting off in life are pretty limited.

In any case, I was hoping someone would be able to cite some kind of scientific study so that we're not just sharing anecdotal experiences and personal theories.

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

California Boy:

Sometimes (relatively often, I would say) not getting married happens less by design than it happens by default, for both gay people and for straight people.  As much as I might like to be married and I might wish I were married, and as much as I might be tempted, mentally, to roll my eyes and to sigh at the next tale of celestially-wedded bliss I hear in a young couple’s testimony at Church or at the next address, lesson, or comment I hear on that subject, I don’t want the Church of Jesus Christ to stop preaching the ideal simply because I haven’t achieved it yet: If that were my standard, we’d have to cut out 90% of the things I hear in church period, let alone just the things I hear about celestial marriage. ;) 

I’m not given to schadenfreude.  My first response upon hearing a tale from Someone Else Who is A Solitary Figure, Seemingly Sentenced to Singleness, is not to exult mentally, “Yessss! Someone else feels my pain!!!” Bwah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah!  Among the crosses I bear is that I happen to be a Confirmed Bachelor in a Church which places a high premium on marriage.  I can’t speak for anyone else (and of course, the degree of pain or discomfort any person feels in any given circumstance is likely to vary based on what other crosses that person happens to bear, on his other life experiences, on his attitude and outlook, and so on), but you know what?  If someone were to invite me, in the spirit of bearing my burdens that they may be light (see Mosiah 18), “Tell me about the crosses you bear,” and if the first thing I happen to mention is, “Well, I’m single, and the female of the species, collectively and in its entirety, ignores me,” I wouldn’t blame that person for being underwhelmed and saying (even if he’s polite enough to not say this in so many words), “Oh, is that all?  Cry me a river!” :rolleyes: 

The truth is that, while being a Confirmed Bachelor in a family church is on my list of “issues,” it’s relatively far down that list.  I have a feeling that, if-and-when I am able to take care of some of the other issues on my list (though I cannot say when that might occur, if ever, at least, not in this life) the “marriage issue” will take care of itself.  As much as I’m tempted to ask, “Lord, why hast Thou dealt with me thus?” about various issues (among which being single long term is only one), I simply have to remind myself of two things: (1) God is a Sovereign; and (2) He loves me.  And His love for me is not contingent on what blessings He sees fit to bestow upon me or upon when He sees fit to bestow them.   

In fact, I’m not even given to schadenfreude for gay couples.  If someone were to ask me what the positions of the Church of Jesus Christ are with respect to chastity, fidelity, and marriage, and if he were to manifest an open mind and an open heart, along with a determination to not dismiss those positions out-of-hand (as unpopular as those positions are becoming in our allegedly-enlightened society), certainly, I would have a ready answer.  On the other hand, I cannot and would not force anyone else to accept my paradigm.  If he chooses to enter into a gay marriage, I would hope that he and his partner find long-term happiness (as foreign as such a prospect might be to my paradigm).  Yes, I could discourse at length on the prospect of that happening in the next life according to my paradigm, but, without a willing, ready, receptive audience, such discourse is unlikely to be effective. (I will not hesitate to impart Living Water to anyone who manifests a need and a desire for it, but trying to do so when such a desire is absent strikes me as the equivalent of attempting to impart Living Water through a fire hose set at full blast.)  

If a person I know to be gay were to manifest a desire to be faithful to the teachings of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ and were to ask me about his prospects for happiness in this life, I would tell him that as important as marriage is, it is not a sin qua non for such happiness.  If he were to ask me about his lot in the life to come (and even if he were to tell me, “I won’t have any desire to be straight in the next life, either”) I would remind him that this is only the Second Act, that we don’t remember the First Act because of the veil of forgetfulness, and that the Third Act hasn’t happened yet.  Does he have a uniquely-tough row to hoe?  Perhaps, but the greater the tribulation faithfully endured, the greater the blessing that will result from such faithful endurance.  As I’ve said so many times before, if we’re faithful, the Omnipotent, Omniscient, All-Loving Lord of the Universe isn’t going to have to tell any of us (straight or gay), when we get to the next life, “I know you were expecting something more, or something better, or at least something different, and I know this means that it sucks to be you, but … sorry.  This is the best I could do.”  

Your reasoning here is fallacious: Marriage is important, but it is not a sin qua non for happiness.  There are plenty of unhappy married people (both straight and gay) who, both for reasons having to do with marriage and for reasons having nothing to do with marriage, experience a lack of happiness, of fulfillment, of joy, and of love.  And there are plenty of unmarried people who experience an abundance of happiness, of fulfillment, of joy, and of love, their unmarried status notwithstanding.   And while you’re welcome to preach that message to anyone who will listen, I’m glad there are those, few though they may be, who won’t listen:.  I’m glad that Courtney and Michelle won’t listen:  http://www.ldsdaily.com/personal-lds-blog/splitting-sky-courtney-rachelle/.  I’m glad that Tom Christofferson won’t listen: https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865688689/Gay-brother-of-Mormon-apostle-shares-his-spiritual-journey.htmlhttps://www.amazon.com/That-We-May-One-Perspective-ebook/dp/B075DJ2WF6; and there are others, including some on this Board.  

I won't deny that it's a huge earthly sacrifice to ask someone who is gay to strive earnestly live, in full, the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.  If someone's perspective and priorities are such that he considers that to be too big of a sacrifice, and if he seeks (and even if he happens to find) earthly happiness elsewhere, more power to him: I cannot and will not demand that he accept my paradigm.  But, as I point out in my previous paragraph, gay marriage isn't a one-size-fits-all solution to the problems gays face.   

True.  I have a sneaking suspicion that you and I would interpret that statement vastly differently, and/or that each of us would assess its implications differently, but, yes, that is a true statement.  Mortality’s only the Second Act: I would never tell anyone, “Well, if you’re going to get [happiness/joy/love/fulfillment/et cetera, ad infinitum] you’d better get it here and now, because this will be your only chance.”  In my opinion, that’s just as much one of Satan’s lies as, “You’ll never get any of those things” or "You'll never get any of those things if you don't get married" is.  

Again, that’s true, but that sneaking suspicion is back: Again, I think you and I would interpret that statement vastly differently, and/or that each of us would assess its implications differently, but yes, that is a true statement.  Again, mortality’s only the Second Act, and I would never tell anyone, “Well, if you’re going to get [happiness/joy/love/fulfillment/et cetera, ad infinitum], you’d better get it here and now, because this will be your only chance.”  Yes, perhaps gays do have a uniquely tough row to hoe, but that’s not the only circumstance which interferes with the attainment of all of those objectives.  It’s simply one in a very long list of mortality’s innumerable vicissitudes.

 

I wish you and everyone else  nothing but the best for their lives, however they choose to live it.  But it is entirely their choice.  Gays do not have a rough road to hoe as you assert, any more than anyone else does.  They have the opportunity to make the exact same choices and choose a life that will be rich and fulfilling just like everyone else.  

Trusting in God is always a better bet than trusting in anyone who claims to speak for God.  We have learned by sad experience that when such claims have been made, especially on this issue, that has not been true.  How one chooses to live his life is between them and God, no one else.  The choices they make should be done after careful prayer and inspiration from God, not from a church handbook that seems to change on a regular basis.  That is the hard lesson I have learned and that is the message I would give anyone who wants to know the will of God on how they should live their lives.

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Calm said:

Since they tell the youth to marry only in the Church, they may not be telling all youth never to get married, but they are telling a good portion of the youth that may be the best choice for them in this lifetime.

I don't believe the Church is telling all self identified gay youth to never marry.  I suspect they see sexuality as more complex than just heterosexual or homosexual, though many (perhaps most leaders) only really examine this concept in terms of homosexuality.  I personally don't see how you can look at sexuality in past and current cultures all over the world and not take that position.

The position I have taken is that marriage has been the basic building blocks for civilization for centuries.  People naturally gravitate to a marriage relationship.  Whether you are gay or straight, those desires don't change.  Yes.  I am more pro marriage than the church leadership.

I really have no interest in turning this thread into yet another thread on gay marriage.  I have said my piece and will leave it at that.  I think you can appreciate why I am bowing out.

Edited by california boy

Share this post


Link to post

This journal article, "Depression in Childhood and Adolescence," concludes that "Across development, a family history of depression and exposure to stressful life events are the most robust risk factors for depression. Familial transmission involves both psychosocial and heritable processes; genetic and environmental influences also combine to influence risk." From a little bit of Googling and reading, my impression was that the consensus among researchers was that depression in children and teens most commonly is a mixture of genetic/biological factors and traumatic and stressful events in their life. The church statement posted in the OP I think is correct to point to bullying of LGBT people as one of those traumatic experiences that can lead to depression and suicide.

This study, "Avoidance or boredom: Negative mental health outcomes associated with use of Information and Communication Technologies depend on users’ motivations," argues that using technology in a compulsive way to avoid problems in your life is linked to depression and anxiety, while it is not connected to using the same things merely for entertainment.

Just a couple of articles I found that seemed relevant, I'm not that knowledgeable of psychology or anything.

Edited by mapman

Share this post


Link to post
9 minutes ago, mapman said:

This journal article, "Depression in Childhood and Adolescence," concludes that "Across development, a family history of depression and exposure to stressful life events are the most robust risk factors for depression....

Drat!  Two-for-two! :(  

Meh, we all have our crosses to bear! :unknw:

As the great philosopher, Colonel Sherman T. Potter of M*A*S*H fame, put it so well, "The best we can do is hit what's pitched."  And, "If you ain't where you are, you're no place."  Even if we cannot choose our circumstances, we can choose our reaction to them.  I don't always do very well at that; in fact, often, I don't.  I can always hope, however, that others' assessment of my performance in that regard is more generous than my own. :) 

Share this post


Link to post
25 minutes ago, california boy said:

The position I have taken is that marriage has been the basic building blocks for civilization for centuries.  People naturally gravitate to a marriage relationship.  Whether you are gay or straight, those desires don't change.  Yes.  I am more pro marriage than the church leadership.

Not necessarily.  You simply define it differently.  That's fine.  Vive le difference!  But it's best to not claim that the goal posts aren't moving even as your interlocutors are watching them sprout legs and walk off of the field of their own accord. ;):D 

Edited by Kenngo1969

Share this post


Link to post
25 minutes ago, california boy said:

 I have said my piece and will leave it at that.  I think you can appreciate why I am bowing out.

I do. :)

I will just add I don't view the Church as proMarriage, but as prorelationships that lead to eternal life/exaltation and that will not be all forms of marriage or family.  Another way of saying it could be pro Eternal Marriage, which is a rather specific type of relationship.

We as a community could be better at being more precise in our language so as to help avoid false expectations.

Share this post


Link to post
14 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

How does supporting an amicus brief in opposition to a gay couple who wanted a wedding cake show a new found sensitivity towards young members at risk of suicide? It’s like the Church has two separate departments who never talk to each other - one producing words and  the other determining actions.

why would you conclude that not being able to force someone to violate their religious liberty would lead you to suicide? The two are completely unrelated.

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Not necessarily.  You simply define it differently.  That's fine.  Vive le difference!  But it's best to not claim that the goal posts are moving even as your interlocutors are watching them sprout legs and walk off of the field of their own accord. ;):D 

But we aren't proheterosexual marriage either because we aren't telling our kids it is great to marry anyone of the opposite sex, but telling them don't marry until you can marry someone of your own faith and then in the temple,e if possible.  That rules out most of humanity at this point.

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

The back and forth is so confusing.  The church supports certain things..and then sweeps that all away with policies and other things.   I am just confused.  That being said, any acknowledgement of youth..all youth..and those who feel less than...is a good step from the church.

Totally agree, I shouldn't be so negative, now hopefully with these steps forward it continually moves ahead. BTW, I wonder what the interview with Elder Christofferson's brother is going to be like. http://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2017/09/17/mormon-apostles-gay-brother-shares-his-religious-journey-preaches-love-for-his-former-partner-faith-and-family/ 

Share this post


Link to post

I wrote the following some time ago.  Notwithstanding its somewhat "fatalistic" tone in spots, I view it (perhaps oddly :crazy:) as life-affirming.  Take it for what it's worth (or not):

Quote

 

Suicidal, But Sane

Everybody thinks you're crazy

When you talk of suicide.

But no matter where you run,

There's still no place to hide.

Somehow it'll find you,

This Monster we call Life,

The one with a thousand hands,

And each one of them has a knife.

No one gets out of this world alive

So why even try to stay?

How long can you run from the Monster?

Maybe another hour, maybe another day?

But still, I'll keep on running

As long as I can remain.

It's true I'm suicidal,

But it's also true I'm sane.

© Ken K. Gourdin, 1988


 

 

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Totally agree, I shouldn't be so negative, now hopefully with these steps forward it continually moves ahead. BTW, I wonder what the interview with Elder Christofferson's brother is going to be like. http://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2017/09/17/mormon-apostles-gay-brother-shares-his-religious-journey-preaches-love-for-his-former-partner-faith-and-family/ 

Pssst!  You'll be sorely disappointed!  He supports the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with respect to chastity and traditional marriage! :o:blink: 

Edited by Kenngo1969

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Pssst!  You'll be sorely disappointed!  He supports the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with respect to chastity and traditional marriage! :o:blink: 

He did have a boyfriend, several years ago. I'm not disappointed though. To each their own. 

Share this post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

. To each their own. 

Including teaching others they believe they would be better off if they refrained from a same sex relationship?

Share this post


Link to post
15 hours ago, bluebell said:

Something has definitely changed and kids are suffering from more mental disorders than they ever seemed to be.  When you have 9-11 year olds on anti-depressants and anti-anxiety meds and they otherwise have normal lives with regular stressors, it should cause us to worry.

Part of that is a hopefully-temporary swing in society's pendulum that currently claims treating symptoms via pharma is *the* answer... One day, we will hopefully get back to addressing the cause of the anxiety....rather than rushing to bandage a wound that hasn't even been treated for healing, which only masks and prolongs the root cause of the problem.

Edited by hagoth7
Grammar

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, CV75 said:

The signs of the times from D&C 88 include this: "And all things shall be in commotion; and surely, men’s hearts shall fail them; for fear shall come upon all people." Some can say the world is not worse off today than it ever was, and in most ways is better off than it it ever was, and yet we have the poison pill of "commotion." I'd say that when suicide becomes a "viable option" to the point where even children's hearts fail them so that the only relief is to kill themselves, the world is nearing a point where only the Lord is going to save it from itself.

With all due respect CV75 it is decades if not half a century from this point. The world ain't seen nothing yet.

I offer this video to those contemplating suicide. My life has not been a bowl of peaches, and I am currently frustrated... again...

nevertheless, I have felt and known God's love and presence much like this person. No matter how bad we have it, there are others who have it worse. A couple of mean facebook posts is just not the end of the world. Losing one's job or business is not either... Many very successful people have been through that.

https://www.lds.org/search?query=hope+of+god's+light&x=0&y=0&lang=eng&domains=videos

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

Part of that is a hopefully temporary swing in society's pendulum swing that says treating symptoms via pharma is the answer... One day, we will hopefully get back to addressing the cause of the anxiety....rather than rushing to bandage a wound that hasn't even been treated for healing, which only masks and prolongs the root cause of the problem.

This is so true. I have to say that I came to the conclusion many years ago that most mental "illnesses" are a result of a lack of love... People do not feel loved in today's world. They feel isolated and left out of the rat race... the popularity contest, etc. If they felt loved they wouldn't be taking their own lives in almost all cases. Popping a pill can make the problem worse by masking it until it reaches critical levels. They feel the world interacts with them on a superficial level. They want to feel real connectedness to the people in their lives. They want to have a sense of meaning and purpose. Being themselves risks being called "a loser" by the world. Those are the types of things people with depression or anxiety fight.
Pills can sometimes help correct chemical imbalances, but half or a quarter of the population? That is a sign of a societal problem that is not the fault of the individual.

Share this post


Link to post
45 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

...Pills can sometimes help correct chemical imbalances, but half or a quarter of the population? That is a sign of a societal problem that is not the fault of the individual.

And a clear indication that mammon has taken over a field where reason and compassion should instead flourish.

Cui bono.

Edited by hagoth7

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×