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LittleNipper

Martin Luther: The Idea That Changed The World

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I strongly recommend that anyone who wishes to begin understanding both the Bible and Protestantism should view the PBS Program >  Martin Luther: The Idea That Changed The World. It is very enlightening and  does touch on the various denominations lightly.  It does bring understanding to the good the bad and the ugly. If you have cable it should be an easy process to find this free program by visiting that Network and its programs available for viewing.   

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1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

I strongly recommend that anyone who wishes to begin understanding both the Bible and Protestantism should view the PBS Program >  Martin Luther: The Idea That Changed The World. It is very enlightening and  does touch on the various denominations lightly.  It does bring understanding to the good the bad and the ugly. If you have cable it should be an easy process to find this free program by visiting that Network and its programs available for viewing.   

He was indeed the Father of the Protestant and Evangelical movement or church(s). Sadly he was also very anti-Semitic, when he was  rejected by them. His comments about Jews led to the, "Inquestion" (hope I spelled this correctly) and to the rise  and hatred,and anti-Semitism in Europe, also to the rise of Hitler, who quoted his horrible comments, and the death of 6,000,000 Jews. The same with a founder of Islam, who went to the Jews to preach concerning his vision, then when he too was rejected, he filled the Koran with anti-Jewish sermons that fuel there hatred for Jews today. What was the name of the show on PBS, so I can see it. 

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2 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

I strongly recommend that anyone who wishes to begin understanding both the Bible and Protestantism should view the PBS Program >  Martin Luther: The Idea That Changed The World. It is very enlightening and  does touch on the various denominations lightly.  It does bring understanding to the good the bad and the ugly. If you have cable it should be an easy process to find this free program by visiting that Network and its programs available for viewing.   

Thanks, I'll check it out.  I recently enjoyed these two podcast episodes by the Maxwell Institute.  The 500th anniversary coming up next month of his 95 theses. 

https://mi.byu.edu/mip-66-harline/

https://mi.byu.edu/mip-67-gregory/

 

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36 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

He was indeed the Father of the Protestant and Evangelical movement or church(s). Sadly he was also very anti-Semitic, when he was  rejected by them. His comments about Jews led to the, "Inquestion" (hope I spelled this correctly) and to the rise  and hatred,and anti-Semitism in Europe, also to the rise of Hitler, who quoted his horrible comments, and the death of 6,000,000 Jews. The same with a founder of Islam, who went to the Jews to preach concerning his vision, then when he too was rejected, he filled the Koran with anti-Jewish sermons that fuel there hatred for Jews today. What was the name of the show on PBS, so I can see it. 

If you view the program they  do delve into this. It seems Luther became frustrated that Jews on the whole at that time didn't embrace the message of salvation. Martin Luther doesn't believe nor do I that he was some prophet. He was certainly a man of his time ----- as are we (like it or not). We are influenced by the society around us. This is the reality that proves that all have sinned. It was the trouble with  a works based society and political church of that day that drove Luther to study the Bible over and over and over. People still are trying to work their way to heaven; fortunately, there is more information out there. Books in Luther's day were all Latin or Greek ----- unless you were a Jew. Luther also is the one who instigated the Public School System as we once recognized it. He also translated the Bible into german for the average man to read. Luther is recognized by historians as the first popular author.

 

The one thing you need to realize about Hitler and the final solution, is that even Christ professing  people of Jewish decent were being murdered. The Nazis considered individuals even 3 generations removed from their Jewish connection as INFERIOR! Their (Nazis) main drive was scientific systematic genetics spearheaded by evolutionary theory. Had they won the war they would likely have closed all private educational facilities (as they did in Germany), They would have run a ancestry check on everyone. And they would have systematically gotten rid of those with dementia, mental shortcoming, the blind and hearing impaired. At the very least they would have controlled who might marry and who would not with mass sterilization of any group they didn't like. And "undesirables" would have been used for experimentation ----- just like in the camps. 

Edited by LittleNipper

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38 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

He was indeed the Father of the Protestant and Evangelical movement or church(s). Sadly he was also very anti-Semitic, when he was  rejected by them. His comments about Jews led to the, "Inquestion" (hope I spelled this correctly) and to the rise  and hatred,and anti-Semitism in Europe, also to the rise of Hitler, who quoted his horrible comments, and the death of 6,000,000 Jews. The same with a founder of Islam, who went to the Jews to preach concerning his vision, then when he too was rejected, he filled the Koran with anti-Jewish sermons that fuel there hatred for Jews today. What was the name of the show on PBS, so I can see it. 

There's plenty of anti-Jewish sentiment in the NT as well, let's not forget. 

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2 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

I strongly recommend that anyone who wishes to begin understanding both the Bible and Protestantism should view the PBS Program >  Martin Luther: The Idea That Changed The World. It is very enlightening and  does touch on the various denominations lightly.  It does bring understanding to the good the bad and the ugly. If you have cable it should be an easy process to find this free program by visiting that Network and its programs available for viewing.   

He just happened on the scene at the right time. Prior reformers( ie Wycliffe) had a harder time of it because the printing press had not been invented yet. With the printing press, Luther was able to disseminate his German Bibles, and men like Tyndale, their English Bibles. The invention of the printing press is really what fueled the reformation. I am not intending to diminish Luther's importance, but in my book he was not a saint. Many gave their lives before and after him in efforts to spread scriptural truth.

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3 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

I strongly recommend that anyone who wishes to begin understanding both the Bible and Protestantism should view the PBS Program >  Martin Luther: The Idea That Changed The World. It is very enlightening and  does touch on the various denominations lightly.  It does bring understanding to the good the bad and the ugly. If you have cable it should be an easy process to find this free program by visiting that Network and its programs available for viewing.   

The same Martin Luther who while recommending against it as general practice, believe polygamy was allowable according to the Bible, and even recommended the practice once or twice?

Gosh, going against the mainstream Church, publishing documents about their doctrine, advocating a return to more original christianity as he understood it, polygamy...
This guy would have made a great fundamentalist.  Take away polygamy and he's not all that different from Denver Snuffer.

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17 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The same Martin Luther who while recommending against it as general practice, believe polygamy was allowable according to the Bible, and even recommended the practice once or twice?

Gosh, going against the mainstream Church, publishing documents about their doctrine, advocating a return to more original christianity as he understood it, polygamy...
This guy would have made a great fundamentalist.  Take away polygamy and he's not all that different from Denver Snuffer.

It is true Luther allowed for polygamy, but only in a very narrow sense. Luther scholar Heinrich Boehmer points out that it was only to be in cases of “severe necessity, for instance, if the wife develops leprosy or becomes otherwise unfit to live with her husband… But this permission is always to be restricted to such cases as severe necessity. The idea of legalizing general polygamy was far from the reformers mind. Monogamy was always to him the regular form of matrimony…” (Luther And The Reformation in Light of Modern Research, 213-214).

Luther was on a learning curve and didn't marry himself until in his 40's and then to a former nun he could not get rid of...^_^

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42 minutes ago, Gray said:

There's plenty of anti-Jewish sentiment in the NT as well, let's not forget. 

Well, let's face this honestly! The fact is unless one believes that Jesus was/is the MESSIAH, there was no possibility of that individual of entering heaven any other way. That is not a hate of Jews nor wanting to throw out Jewish traditions. But illustrations aside, Christ is the only path to Salvation. And there are a growing number of Messianic Jews. Christianity is the climax of Judaism. It's biblical continuation as it were. 

Edited by LittleNipper

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12 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

Well, let's face this honestly! The fact is unless one believes that Jesus was/is the MESSIAH, there was no possibility of that individual of entering heaven any other way. That is not a hate of Jews nor wanting to throw out Jewish traditions. But illustrations aside, Christ is the only path to Salvation. And there are a growing number of Messianic Jews. Christianity is the climax of Judaism. It's biblical continuation as it were. 

Jesus was Jewish, though, not Christian. So were the 12. Will Jesus and his immediate followers be locked out of heaven? Arguably Christianity as we would recognize it didn't start to develop until late in the first century, and especially in the centuries that followed. 

Christianity broke with Judaism for a lot of different reasons, but it certainly wasn't right away - and some of it was financial/political. We start seeing the real overt anti-semitism in the NT only after the Christians started breaking away from the Jews. 

Edited by Gray

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1 hour ago, Gray said:

There's plenty of anti-Jewish sentiment in the NT as well, let's not forget. 

It in no way compares with the calling of death, forced conversions and wars, that have sought to eliminate an entire tribe of people. The NT does not call for any such actions, although it has been used to inspire such actions. 

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20 minutes ago, Gray said:

Jesus was Jewish, though, not Christian. So were the 12. Will Jesus and his immediate followers be locked out of heaven? Arguably Christianity as we would recognize it didn't start to develop until late in the first century, and especially in the centuries that followed. 

Christianity broke with Judaism for a lot of different reasons, but it certainly wasn't right away - and some of it was financial/political. We start seeing the real overt anti-semitism in the NT only after the Christians started breaking away from the Jews. 

And apparently all the prophets from Moses through John have been also.

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24 minutes ago, Gray said:

Jesus was Jewish, though, not Christian. So were the 12. Will Jesus and his immediate followers be locked out of heaven? Arguably Christianity as we would recognize it didn't start to develop until late in the first century, and especially in the centuries that followed. 

Christianity broke with Judaism for a lot of different reasons, but it certainly wasn't right away - and some of it was financial/political. We start seeing the real overt anti-semitism in the NT only after the Christians started breaking away from the Jews. 

Saying Jesus was Jewish is no different than saying Martin Luther was Catholic.

At some point the differentiation has to be made when their beliefs and teachings contradicted the orthodox.
Christ was Jewish, yes, but he taught things not found in Judaism.  The official break may have happened long after his death, and he did practice elements of Judaism, but Christ had his own teachings.
 

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13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Saying Jesus was Jewish is no different than saying Martin Luther was Catholic.

At some point the differentiation has to be made when their beliefs and teachings contradicted the orthodox.
Christ was Jewish, yes, but he taught things not found in Judaism.  The official break may have happened long after his death, and he did practice elements of Judaism, but Christ had his own teachings.
 

Jesus lived and died as a Jewish man. His teachings were not radically different from mainstream Judaism. In fact they were right in line with many other Jewish thinkers. His was just one of several factions within the tradition. There were of course disagreements of interpretation within those factions. Christianity is largely the creation of the generations that followed. Jesus' message is largely about distributive justice and non-violent resistance to Rome. It's about collaborating with God to bring about the eschaton. 

Edited by Gray

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16 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Saying Jesus was Jewish is no different than saying Martin Luther was Catholic.

At some point the differentiation has to be made when their beliefs and teachings contradicted the orthodox.
Christ was Jewish, yes, but he taught things not found in Judaism.  The official break may have happened long after his death, and he did practice elements of Judaism, but Christ had his own teachings.
 

I believe if you watch the documentary you will discover the answer to both is YES! The ROMAN Catholic church rejected Martin Luther. He began life as any average Catholic of his time. Jesus COMPLETED Judaism. Without the eventuality of the Messiah, there would be on logical or spiritual reason for Jews.

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31 minutes ago, Gray said:

His teachings were not radically different from mainstream Judaism. In fact they were right in line with many other Jewish thinkers. His was just one of several factions within the tradition. 

The biblical record seems to indicate that his teachings were radically different, although admittedly those were written well after his death.
But I am no expert on Judaism nor Jewish teachings.  You may be completely correct in your assessment.

 

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2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

He just happened on the scene at the right time. Prior reformers( ie Wycliffe) had a harder time of it because the printing press had not been invented yet. With the printing press, Luther was able to disseminate his German Bibles, and men like Tyndale, their English Bibles. The invention of the printing press is really what fueled the reformation. I am not intending to diminish Luther's importance, but in my book he was not a saint. Many gave their lives before and after him in efforts to spread scriptural truth.

So, GOD gave Martin Luther the printing press. I totally believe that. Martin Luther as the right man in the right place at the right time. That is how GOD works. Martin Luther was not burned at the stake --- which given that time period seem a very astonishing miracle to me. Was he perfect? NO! And I firmly believe that Martin Luther would be the first in line to tell you very the same!

Edited by LittleNipper

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7 hours ago, Gray said:

Jesus lived and died as a Jewish man. His teachings were not radically different from mainstream Judaism. In fact they were right in line with many other Jewish thinkers. His was just one of several factions within the tradition. There were of course disagreements of interpretation within those factions. Christianity is largely the creation of the generations that followed. Jesus' message is largely about distributive justice and non-violent resistance to Rome. It's about collaborating with God to bring about the eschaton. 

And yet the mainstream Jews of Jesus' day utterly and violently rejected his teachings while engaging in emotion-charged verbal battle with him at every turn, even seeking to murder him on several occasions.  Finally, his testimony and "mainstream" Jewish teachings (your claim) got him scourged within an inch of his life and then crucified, as those Jewish religionists who earlier shouted for his crucifixion threw what they esteemed to be his heretical words back in his innocent face while hanging in agony and bearing the sins of the world.

The only way you have any possibility of being correct in your assessment is if the New Testament was not written during the first century AD by many of the earliest disciples of Christ, a notion the prophets of the Book of Mormon and the prophet Joseph Smith reject. 

Is it your contention that the Apostles of Christ in the first five decades after the ascension of Christ didn't believe Jesus of Nazareth was the literal Son of God and that he didn't atone for the sins of the world in Gethsemane and on Golgotha? After all, these beliefs comprise the very core of Christianity.

Edited by Bobbieaware

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37 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

And yet the mainstream Jews of Jesus' day utterly and violently rejected his teachings while engaging in emotion-charged verbal battle with him at every turn, even seeking to murder him on several occasions.  Finally, his testimony and "mainstream" Jewish teachings (your claim) got him scourged within an inch of his life and then crucified, as those Jewish religionists who earlier shouted for his crucifixion threw what they esteemed to be his heretical words back in his innocent face while hanging in agony and bearing the sins of the world.

The only way you have any possibility of being correct in your assessment is if the New Testament was not written during the first century AD by many of the earliest disciples of Christ, a notion the prophets of the Book of Mormon and the prophet Joseph Smith reject. 

Is it your contention that the Apostles of Christ in the first five decades after the ascension of Christ didn't believe Jesus of Nazareth was the literal Son of God and that he didn't atone for the sins of the world in Gethsemane and on Golgotha? After all, these beliefs comprise at the very core of Christianity.

I believe what is being stated is that Jesus fulfilled the prophetic message of the Old Testament that should have been known to every Jew in Judea  and anywhere else for that matter. Mary was a Jew. Joseph was a Jew. They all went to the Temple in Jerusalem for Passover. Christianity is a Latin term and not a Hebrew one. All the writers of the New Testament as with the Old were descendants of Abraham. The "mainstream" Jews were the Sadducees, the Pharisees. They saw Jesus as a threat to what power they possessed. They hated the fact that He (Jesus) said he was equal to God.

Edited by LittleNipper

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8 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Well, let's face this honestly! The fact is unless one believes that Jesus was/is the MESSIAH, there was no possibility of that individual of entering heaven any other way. That is not a hate of Jews nor wanting to throw out Jewish traditions. But illustrations aside, Christ is the only path to Salvation. And there are a growing number of Messianic Jews. Christianity is the climax of Judaism. It's biblical continuation as it were. 

Read Romans 11.  Take it to heart.  God's chosen people.

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5 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Read Romans 11.  Take it to heart.  God's chosen people.

The Jews in general will come to embrace Christ when the Temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem --- and it will be. But the Anti-Christ will desecrate the place with his image. It will be then that the Jews will realize their grave mistake. 

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7 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

So, GOD gave Martin Luther the printing press. I totally believe that. Martin Luther as the right man in the right place at the right time. That is how GOD works. Martin Luther was not burned at the stake --- which given that time period seem a very astonishing miracle to me. Was he perfect? NO! And I firmly believe that Martin Luther would be the first in line to tell you very the same!

Let's just put it this way - Martin Luther was not my favorite reformer. He doubted the book of Revelation, and was a fairly virulent anti-Semite as has been mentioned. He did a lot of good, and was very steadfast in his opinions which I admire about him.

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47 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

The Jews in general will come to embrace Christ when the Temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem --- and it will be. But the Anti-Christ will desecrate the place with his image. It will be then that the Jews will realize their grave mistake. 

Unscriptural mumbo-jumbo. The temple of Ezekiel is a spiritual temple built by the Branch - not a physical one. Animal sacrifice is forever done away unless Christ were to revoke that. There is no "the anti-Christ." That is Darbyist rhetoric. There have already been hundreds of anti-christs.

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1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

I believe what is being stated is that Jesus fulfilled the prophetic message of the Old Testament that should have been known to every Jew in Judea  and anywhere else for that matter. Mary was a Jew. Joseph was a Jew. They all went to the Temple in Jerusalem for Passover. Christianity is a Latin term and not a Hebrew one. All the writers of the New Testament as with the Old were descendants of Abraham. The "mainstream" Jews were the Sadducees, the Pharisees. They saw Jesus as a threat to what power they possessed. They hated the fact that He (Jesus) said he was equal to God.

What was said is that Christianity did not come to exist as a religion separate and distinct from the mainstream Jewish sects of the Apostolic period until some 70 years after the ascension of Christ. Really? The religion of Christ and the apostles would have been viewed by the Jews of that day as another mainstream (!) sect of Judaism? How can this be when the New Testament most emphatically says otherwise? Do you realize most of the mainstream Jews of that day believed Jesus was the illegitimate son of a Roman Centurion and an immoral Jewish mother? That Jesus was a false Messiah who was, in reality, a drunken, blasphemous child of the devil? That Jesus was an occult magician who used the powers of darkness to feign miracles? That his body was stolen from the sepulcher by his disciples so they could spread abroad the lie that he was raised from the dead? All of these things would have been understood and accepted as being part a legitimate sect of mainstream Judaism? I don't think so. Christianity was persecuted by the mainstream Jews precisely because it was seen as being wildly heretical and about as non-mainstream as a purportedJewish sect could get.

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14 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

I strongly recommend that anyone who wishes to begin understanding both the Bible and Protestantism should view the PBS Program >  Martin Luther: The Idea That Changed The World. It is very enlightening and  does touch on the various denominations lightly.  It does bring understanding to the good the bad and the ugly. If you have cable it should be an easy process to find this free program by visiting that Network and its programs available for viewing.   

It doesn't look like Netflix has it streaming yet but I do appreciate rhe recommendation. 

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