Lost opportunities of giving a voice to women who well deserves.....

[Atheist Mormon]

I have hard time understanding why Church pushes women into obscurity who gave their hearts & Souls to her.....Especially the ones who are alive today.... And honor the ones passed with dignity & Honor... Some of those Women are my Heroes like Juanita Brooks...While I was reading her book Mountain Meadows Massacre, I lived those vivid accountings of horror stories. While she was alive we never treated her with respect she so well deserved.....You know, this story did not affect me because some rogue Mormons killed 120 or so immigrants, Heck, multiply that ten thousand massacres which would equal to my ancestors annihilation......(1.5 Million).  It is sad.....and yet we do not honor the women they are alive today....I would give anything if church would acknowledge one of her dearest daughter Carol Lynn Pearson. ( I suggest you read "Goodbye I love you"). I would roll red carpet for her, celebrate her unequaled poems and services........Yea I know I'm rambling....Mormons produced some greatest women....Look at Minerva Teichert's paintings, if you haven't seen her paintings, it's your loss......

This is my culture and Utah is my home. 

[Robert F. Smith]

On 9/12/2017 at 8:48 PM, Atheist Mormon said:

I have hard time understanding why Church pushes women into obscurity who gave their hearts & Souls to her.....Especially the ones who are alive today.... And honor the ones passed with dignity & Honor... Some of those Women are my Heroes like Juanita Brooks...While I was reading her book Mountain Meadows Massacre, I lived those vivid accountings of horror stories. While she was alive we never treated her with respect she so well deserved.....You know, this story did not affect me because some rogue Mormons killed 120 or so immigrants, Heck, multiply that ten thousand massacres which would equal to my ancestors annihilation......(1.5 Million).  It is sad.....and yet we do not honor the women they are alive today....I would give anything if church would acknowledge one of her dearest daughter Carol Lynn Pearson. ( I suggest you read "Goodbye I love you"). I would roll red carpet for her, celebrate her unequaled poems and services........Yea I know I'm rambling....Mormons produced some greatest women....Look at Minerva Teichert's paintings, if you haven't seen her paintings, it's your loss......

This is my culture and Utah is my home. 

Actually you are quite wrong on each item here.  Juanita Brooks was heavily honored and recognized in her lifetime.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juanita_Brooks .  She was a force to be reckoned with.

Carol Lynn Pearson (still going strong) had her book, Goodbye, I Love You, read from the pulpit during General Conference.  Her amazing poetry and thoughtful books have been widely distributed throughout the Church.  I have attended lectures by her in Provo.

Minerva Teichert's paintings hang on the walls at BYU, and I have a coffee table book of her wonderful work.  These women have been highly regarded, and rightly so.

ETA:  Got it wrong on Carol Lynn, even though Marion D. Hanks did refer to the death of her former husband and her caring for him during a BYU devotional, before publication of her book.  Maybe that was what I had confused with General Conference.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[Calm]

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1989/04/minerva-kohlhepp-teichert-with-a-bold-brush?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2007/10/m-teichert-artist-of-dramatic-vision?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/08/news-of-the-church/museum-displays-work-of-mormon-artist-minerva-teichert?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/church/news/historic-teichert-paintings-have-new-home?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2005/09/joy-in-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2008/08/and-thus-we-see?lang=eng&clang=ase

[Calm]

Carol Lynn Pearson was everywhere in the 70s and 80s.  My impression is once she became more political activist, she wasn't published in Church publications, but there was still tons of her stuff being published and selling well when I worked at a church bookstore in 2001-2002 and still is.

https://www.lds.org/new-era/1976/03/the-cast?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/04/poetry?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/04/poetry/short-roots?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/new-era/1971/01/poetry?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/new-era/1981/01/poetry/he-who-would-be-chief-among-you?lang=eng

http://churchhistorycatalog.lds.org/primo_library/libweb/action/dlDisplay.do?vid=CHL_PUBLIC&docId=ALEPH-PCHD000589518&fromSitemap=1&afterPDS=true

https://www.lds.org/liahona/1984/06/judge-not?lang=eng

http://churchhistorycatalog.lds.org/primo_library/libweb/action/dlDisplay.do?vid=CHL_PUBLIC&docId=ALEPH-PCHD000597496&fromSitemap=1&afterPDS=true

https://www.lds.org/new-era/1986/01/never-go-into-winchells-without-buying-a-doughnut?lang=eng

http://churchhistorycatalog.lds.org/primo_library/libweb/action/dlDisplay.do?vid=CHL_PUBLIC&docId=ALEPH-PCHD000637167&fromSitemap=1&afterPDS=true

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1976/10/the-lords-support-system?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/liahona/1996/06/ill-walk-with-you?lang=eng

It is unlikely the Church is going to publicly recognize someone who has come out and said the Church was and is wrong about polygamy.  I don't know her stand on SSM.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

Juanita Brooks has listings of her work on history.lds.org and appears to be in a number of footnotes, but besides Millet's reference to her here, specific attention to her is not on LDS.org that I found, though the footnotes may be too much 'clutter' to find them:

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/church-response-to-jon-krakauer-s-under-the-banner-of-heaven

Edited September 13, 2017 by Calm

[Atheist Mormon]

14 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Actually you are quite wrong on each item here.  Juanita Brooks was heavily honored and recognized in her lifetime.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juanita_Brooks .  She was a force to be reckoned with.

Carol Lynn Pearson (still going strong) had her book, Goodbye, I Love You, read from the pulpit during General Conference.  Her amazing poetry and thoughtful books have been widely distributed throughout the Church.  I have attended lectures by her in Provo.

Minerva Teichert's paintings hang on the walls at BYU, and I have a coffee table book of her wonderful work.  These women have been highly regarded, and rightly so.

I guess I'm behind times, Very glad to hear this.

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I guess I'm behind times, Very glad to hear this.

Oh, come on!  Throwing in the towel already?  Don't give up that easily!  Everybody knows that the Mormon Church and Mormon Culture are peopled and driven by a bunch of knuckle-dragging, misogynistic, sexist, chauvinistic pigs! To borrow General Omar Bradley's famous interjection when he was confronted with equally long odds arrayed against him and against the forces under his command, "Nuts!"  In Admiral David Farragut's famous words, "Damn the torpedoes!  Full-speed ahead!"  In John Paul Jones's equally-famous words, "I have not begun to fight!"  If you need more encouragement, I'm sure I can dig up some others!

Take heart and soldier on, Atheist Mormon!  Don't give up the fight!

 

poster removed

[ksfisher]

6 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

To borrow General Omar Bradley's famous interjection when he was confronted with equally long odds arrayed against him and against the forces under his command, "Nuts!" 

Actually General Anthony McAuliffe.    But perhaps I'm being pedantic.

[Kenngo1969]

59 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Actually General Anthony McAuliffe.    But perhaps I'm being pedantic.

Mea maxima culpa.  Right you are.  "Pedant" away!  

[Amulek]

17 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Look at Minerva Teichert's paintings, if you haven't seen her paintings, it's your loss......

I can't say with certainty how popular she within the LDS community more broadly, but I do know that she is one of the LDS artists that I would be able to name off the top of my head (and I'm not particularly artsy). 

 

[Atheist Mormon]

7 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Oh, come on!  Throwing in the towel already?  Don't give up that easily!  Everybody knows that the Mormon Church and Mormon Culture are peopled and driven by a bunch of knuckle-dragging, misogynistic, sexist, chauvinistic pigs! To borrow General Omar Bradley's famous interjection when he was confronted with equally long odds arrayed against him and against the forces under his command, "Nuts!"  In Admiral David Farragut's famous words, "Damn the torpedoes!  Full-speed ahead!"  In John Paul Jones's equally-famous words, "I have not begun to fight!"  If you need more encouragement, I'm sure I can dig up some others!

Take heart and soldier on, Atheist Mormon!  Don't give up the fight!

 

poster removed

You are right my friend, living far from Utah does it... I personally never hear from these heroic women.....I can imagine if it was worth it for Carrol, or Juanita going through this personal Hell.....I mean Juanita immortalized herself with that book "Mountain Meadows Massacre" and Carrol from a different path "Goodbye I love you"..... No matter what we do...It won't be enough....

Thank you.

[Guest]

22 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I have hard time understanding why Church pushes women into obscurity who gave their hearts & Souls to her.....Especially the ones who are alive today.... And honor the ones passed with dignity & Honor... Some of those Women are my Heroes like Juanita Brooks...While I was reading her book Mountain Meadows Massacre, I lived those vivid accountings of horror stories. While she was alive we never treated her with respect she so well deserved.....You know, this story did not affect me because some rogue Mormons killed 120 or so immigrants, Heck, multiply that ten thousand massacres which would equal to my ancestors annihilation......(1.5 Million).  It is sad.....and yet we do not honor the women they are alive today....I would give anything if church would acknowledge one of her dearest daughter Carol Lynn Pearson. ( I suggest you read "Goodbye I love you"). I would roll red carpet for her, celebrate her unequaled poems and services........Yea I know I'm rambling....Mormons produced some greatest women....Look at Minerva Teichert's paintings, if you haven't seen her paintings, it's your loss......

This is my culture and Utah is my home. 

What is your definition of "pushes women into obscurity"? Our Sisters in the Gospel receive more respect, and more responsibly than most any other, if not every other Church. Evangelicals, require women are to remain quiet, Catholic Churches do not allow Nuns to speak, unless there is no Priest available. JEHOVAH WITNESSES, also don't let women take part in any meaningful way. My mother's first time attended an LDS Church was excited to hear one of the speakers that day to be a woman. Just as she did, and while I was growing up, neither of us ever heard a woman speak in Church. We have Relief Society Presidents, Primary Presidents, and certain rites given to women in the Temple. I cannot remember more than five times in my 38 years of membership that a woman did not speak, in Ward, Stake and Gerneral Conference combined. This is just way off base, you are also forgetting all of our Sister Missionaries, who are out everyday preaching the Gospel. 

 

[Atheist Mormon]

14 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

What is your definition of "pushes women into obscurity"? Our Sisters in the Gospel receive more respect, and more responsibly than most any other, if not every other Church. Evangelicals, require women are to remain quiet, Catholic Churches do not allow Nuns to speak, unless there is no Priest available. JEHOVAH WITNESSES, also don't let women take part in any meaningful way. My mother's first time attended an LDS Church was excited to hear one of the speakers that day to be a woman. Just as she did, and while I was growing up, neither of us ever heard a woman speak in Church. We have Relief Society Presidents, Primary Presidents, and certain rites given to women in the Temple. I cannot remember more than five times in my 38 years of membership that a woman did not speak, in Ward, Stake and Gerneral Conference combined. This is just way off base, you are also forgetting all of our Sister Missionaries, who are out everyday preaching the Gospel. 

What makes you think I'd disagree with you about the stances of other churches? They might be alot worse off than Mormon Church......But when you speak about equality you are way off base compared to world outside the Church, (Of course i'mm only speaking for our Western civilization). Sorry but doing Missionary work is hard work, I'd rather sit inside a cozy office & make decisions. And speaking of in Conferences (from General to Stake) what is the percentage of women speaking? I can tell you , for example, 90% of professionals are women, (not that I could not hire men in their places). 

Anyway, there's no rights or wrongs how you want to accomplish things....Just think about how average people perceives what you do and how you do, because end of the day it is not me who is proselytizing to the world. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

What makes you think I'd disagree with you about the stances of other churches? They might be alot worse off than Mormon Church......But when you speak about equality you are way off base compared to world outside the Church, (Of course i'mm only speaking for our Western civilization). Sorry but doing Missionary work is hard work, I'd rather sit inside a cozy office & make decisions. And speaking of in Conferences (from General to Stake) what is the percentage of women speaking? I can tell you , for example, 90% of professionals are women, (not that I could not hire men in their places). 

Anyway, there's no rights or wrongs how you want to accomplish things....Just think about how average people perceives what you do and how you do, because end of the day it is not me who is proselytizing to the world. 

Sorry, but not sure how we got to "Professionals and hiring" when you comments that prompted my comments were about how the Church sends "women into oblivion". But if you wish to go there, are you suggesting that 90% of women make up all the "Professionals" in the entire workforce. Not trying to be difficult, but how did we get to this? Also, what is it that "I do", that the "average people perceives". I want to understand what you are implying. Finally I don't recall implying that you, "disagree with you (your) about the stances of other churches". Are you confusing me with another poster? 

[Atheist Mormon]

1 hour ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Sorry, but not sure how we got to "Professionals and hiring" when you comments that prompted my comments were about how the Church sends "women into oblivion". But if you wish to go there, are you suggesting that 90% of women make up all the "Professionals" in the entire workforce. Not trying to be difficult, but how did we get to this? Also, what is it that "I do", that the "average people perceives". I want to understand what you are implying. Finally I don't recall implying that you, "disagree with you (your) about the stances of other churches". Are you confusing me with another poster? 

Quote

"are you suggesting that 90% of women make up all the "Professionals" in the entire workforce."

No didn't suggest that, I used "I hire", it is my company, which is a medical practice. I am not confusing you with another poster, you are the one  who compared other churches and frankly I don't see much difference among them.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

No didn't suggest that, I used "I hire", it is my company, which is a medical practice. I am not confusing you with another poster, you are the one  who compared other churches and frankly I don't see much difference among them.

You don't see a different with Churches who require women to be silent, and who can hold no offices, and the LDS Church? 

[Atheist Mormon]

On 9/14/2017 at 1:18 PM, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

You don't see a different with Churches who require women to be silent, and who can hold no offices, and the LDS Church? 

What are you trying to tell me PaPa? Are you using a different Scripture than Bible? I didn't think so. Even though Joseph gave his followers leeway about Bible you still follow it precept by precept.....

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

What are you trying to tell me PaPa? Are you using a different Scripture than Bible? I didn't think so. Even though Joseph gave his followers leeway about Bible you still follow it precept by precept.....

It would seem we are to speaking the same language, so nuff said. 

[juliann]

On 9/13/2017 at 7:03 PM, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

What is your definition of "pushes women into obscurity"? Our Sisters in the Gospel receive more respect, and more responsibly than most any other, if not every other Church. Evangelicals, require women are to remain quiet, Catholic Churches do not allow Nuns to speak, unless there is no Priest available. JEHOVAH WITNESSES, also don't let women take part in any meaningful way.  

It is never a good idea to speak for other churches. What "evangelical" church are you referring to? The Catholic church, even with a male hegemony, has room for those "nuns" to create orders, charities, etc. and run them more autonomously than a Relief Society. And of course, you didn't even mention all of the churches that do allow women as priests and leaders now. You have taken the worst stereotypes to elevate Mormon women. It's not a contest. There are pros and cons in each situation.

[juliann]

On 9/13/2017 at 6:52 PM, Atheist Mormon said:

You are right my friend, living far from Utah does it... I personally never hear from these heroic women.....I can imagine if it was worth it for Carrol, or Juanita going through this personal Hell.....I mean Juanita immortalized herself with that book "Mountain Meadows Massacre" and Carrol from a different path "Goodbye I love you"..... No matter what we do...It won't be enough....

Thank you.

Carol is very much a force. She even wrote the lyrics to a Primary song...it was sung at the church supported concert for LBGQ. (Don't know how to properly describe that.) She has never gotten in trouble with the church and has spoken about how much a part of her ward she is. Her book, the title I can't recall, was a staple in the 70s. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

It is never a good idea to speak for other churches. What "evangelical" church are you referring to? The Catholic church, even with a male hegemony, has room for those "nuns" to create orders, charities, etc. and run them more autonomously than a Relief Society. And of course, you didn't even mention all of the churches that do allow women as priests and leaders now. You have taken the worst stereotypes to elevate Mormon women. It's not a contest. There are pros and cons in each situation.

My comments were in compassion to the opening statement or the "Church pushing women in to obscurity", (hope I spell in right) and my experiences of growing in Churches that required women to remain silent, and hold no posititions. I would not call the Catholic Church, "Evangelical ", as do not thing that they do the same. I only used the comparison to point out that LDS Women, are speakers, hold Church officers and more. But now it seem I am not address anything concerning the primary point. 

[california boy]

On 9/13/2017 at 5:10 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

Actually you are quite wrong on each item here.  Juanita Brooks was heavily honored and recognized in her lifetime.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juanita_Brooks .  She was a force to be reckoned with.

Carol Lynn Pearson (still going strong) had her book, Goodbye, I Love You, read from the pulpit during General Conference.  Her amazing poetry and thoughtful books have been widely distributed throughout the Church.  I have attended lectures by her in Provo.

Minerva Teichert's paintings hang on the walls at BYU, and I have a coffee table book of her wonderful work.  These women have been highly regarded, and rightly so.

Wow, I never knew that about Carol Lynn Pearson.  I tried searching on LDS.org for the talk you referenced, but couldn't find it.  Do you happen to know how I could find out what actually was said in General Conference?

[Calm]

There was this reference of her work, but I don't think that is what Robert is referring to:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1976/10/the-lords-support-system?lang=eng

Also these:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1971/10/the-only-true-and-living-church?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1977/10/the-light-of-the-gospel?lang=eng

Edited September 16, 2017 by Calm

[california boy]

19 hours ago, juliann said:

Carol is very much a force. She even wrote the lyrics to a Primary song...it was sung at the church supported concert for LBGQ. (Don't know how to properly describe that.) She has never gotten in trouble with the church and has spoken about how much a part of her ward she is. Her book, the title I can't recall, was a staple in the 70s. 

Not sure if the book you are thinking if was "Beginnings". which was very popular at BYU in the 70's.  The illustrator of the book was Trevor Southey, a well loved art instructor who became very close friend of Carol Lynn Person and ended up leaving BYU because he was gay.  Was I surprised when I moved back to California after graduating at BYU to find out she was in my stake.  

Carol Lynn Person is much loved by a lot of people, but many also consider her anti-Mormon for her views on gay marriage and support to the gay community.  I remember reading "Circle the Wagons" on a flight to NYC, fighting back tears through most of the flight.  I am sure the person next to me thought I was insane.  

The primary song you referred to is also a favorite of mine.  The lyrics are certainly how I see the core of the gospel..

 

Quote

 

Lyrics

1. I'll Walk With You
2. If you don't walk as most people do,
   Some people walk away from you,
   But I won't! I won't!
   If you don't talk as most people do,
   Some people talk and laugh at you,
   But I won't! I won't!
   I'll walk with you. I'll talk with you.
   That's how I'll show my love for you.
   Jesus walked away from none.
   He gave his love to ev'ryone.
   So I will! I will!
   Jesus blessed all he could see,
   Then turned and said, "Come, follow me."
   And I will! I will!
   I will! I will!
   I'll walk with you. I'll talk with you.
   That's how I'll show my love for you.

 

1.  

[california boy]

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

There was this reference of her work, but I don't think that is what Robert is referring to:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1976/10/the-lords-support-system?lang=eng

Also these:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1971/10/the-only-true-and-living-church?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1977/10/the-light-of-the-gospel?lang=eng

Yeah I did see those references, but nothing about Goodbye, I Love You, read from the pulpit during General Conference.  I would really be interested in what context it was read.