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Brigham Young?


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"I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me—namely that Adam is our Father and God—I do not know, I do not inquire, I care nothing about it. Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him, and after it was made he and his companions came here"  I found it in the FAIR website https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Repudiated_concepts/Adam-God_theory#cite_ref-3

If Satan made changes to the 116 pages, why not assume he also made changes to the Journal of Discourses? I don't think Brigham Young said "which God revealed to me",  I doubt Young couldn't tell the difference between the spirit and his own thoughts.

I am realizing that Satan didn't magically have to change historical documents, he could have simply inspired men to make changes because many accounts we have are second and third hand.  Make no mistake Satan does have power because the Bible teaches there are two powers, in Exodus 7 Satan created serpents after watching Moses turn his rod into a serpent. 

Edited by SamuelTheLamanite
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37 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

"I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me—namely that Adam is our Father and God—I do not know, I do not inquire, I care nothing about it. Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him, and after it was made he and his companions came here"  I found it in the FAIR website https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Repudiated_concepts/Adam-God_theory#cite_ref-3

If Satan made changes to the 116 pages, why not assume he also made changes to the statement above? I don't think that is Brigham Young unless you believe he can't tell the difference between the Spirit and his own ideas.  

I am realizing that Satan didn't magically have to change historical documents, he could have simply inspired men to make changes because many accounts we have are second and third hand.  Make no mistake Satan does have power because the Bible teaches there are two powers, in Exodus 7 Satan created serpents after watching Moses turn his rod into a serpent. 

I think most realize that speeches in history are captured by someone.  SOmetimes as that happened different parts or phrases were mistaken.  I don't know that it's easy to dismiss such an instance on this though.  it is recorded that Brigham taught such a concept many times.  When trying to evaluate whether statements were mistaken, it's best to see if it fits with what else we might know or what else we might find.  In this case, the teaching is largely attributed to Brigham after such evaluations. 

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26 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Samuel, Prophets are not infallible and make mistakes.  The position of the church is that Brigham Young was mistaken about his teachings regarding the Adam/God Doctrine.  There's no question that he taught it for over 25 years (and so did the other leaders of the church).  He even added it to the Temple endowment (look up "Lecture at the veil").  There are simply too many records and documents confirming that he taught it, for anyone to deny that.  

Your "Satan did it" theory, just doesn't work here.  The best thing is to accept that Prophets make mistakes at times.

(Also, Satan did not make changes to the 116 pages and you keep stating that he did.  Unless you have some evidence or proof of that, it is a false claim.)

ETA:

Not everyone believes that Brigham Young's teachings were erroneous.  I'm just stating what the current teachings are regarding it.

Samuel may be going to experience some cog dis if he can't blame it on Satan. Been there, done that.

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1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

"I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me—namely that Adam is our Father and God—I do not know, I do not inquire, I care nothing about it. Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him, and after it was made he and his companions came here"  I found it in the FAIR website https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Repudiated_concepts/Adam-God_theory#cite_ref-3

If Satan made changes to the 116 pages, why not assume he also made changes to the statement above? I don't think that is Brigham Young unless you believe he can't tell the difference between the Spirit and his own ideas.  

I am realizing that Satan didn't magically have to change historical documents, he could have simply inspired men to make changes because many accounts we have are second and third hand.  Make no mistake Satan does have power because the Bible teaches there are two powers, in Exodus 7 Satan created serpents after watching Moses turn his rod into a serpent. 

How exactly is the theory of evolution related to the 116 pages?   Is the parting of the Red Sea related somehow to the Martin Handcart Company?

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1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

"I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me—namely that Adam is our Father and God—I do not know, I do not inquire, I care nothing about it. Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him, and after it was made he and his companions came here"  I found it in the FAIR website https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Repudiated_concepts/Adam-God_theory#cite_ref-3

If Satan made changes to the 116 pages, why not assume he also made changes to the statement above? I don't think that is Brigham Young unless you believe he can't tell the difference between the Spirit and his own ideas.  

I am realizing that Satan didn't magically have to change historical documents, he could have simply inspired men to make changes because many accounts we have are second and third hand.  Make no mistake Satan does have power because the Bible teaches there are two powers, in Exodus 7 Satan created serpents after watching Moses turn his rod into a serpent. 

In a way, everything you just cited from Brigham Young is consistent with current LDS teachings.

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1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

"I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me—namely that Adam is our Father and God—I do not know, I do not inquire, I care nothing about it. Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him, and after it was made he and his companions came here"  I found it in the FAIR website https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Repudiated_concepts/Adam-God_theory#cite_ref-3

If Satan made changes to the 116 pages, why not assume he also made changes to the statement above? I don't think that is Brigham Young unless you believe he can't tell the difference between the Spirit and his own ideas.  

I am realizing that Satan didn't magically have to change historical documents, he could have simply inspired men to make changes because many accounts we have are second and third hand.  Make no mistake Satan does have power because the Bible teaches there are two powers, in Exodus 7 Satan created serpents after watching Moses turn his rod into a serpent. 

Its sad to me that you're looking for supernatural explanations to try and resolve historical evidence.  You should just stop this kind of non sense because it is dangerous to your health and there are no reasonable and rational arguments that you'll consider valid once you start down this road.  This is how conspiracy theorists think.  I encourage you not to get caught up in this kind of thinking.  

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1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

"I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me—namely that Adam is our Father and God—I do not know, I do not inquire, I care nothing about it. Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him, and after it was made he and his companions came here"  I found it in the FAIR website https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Repudiated_concepts/Adam-God_theory#cite_ref-3

If Satan made changes to the 116 pages, why not assume he also made changes to the statement above? I don't think that is Brigham Young unless you believe he can't tell the difference between the Spirit and his own ideas.  

I am realizing that Satan didn't magically have to change historical documents, he could have simply inspired men to make changes because many accounts we have are second and third hand.  Make no mistake Satan does have power because the Bible teaches there are two powers, in Exodus 7 Satan created serpents after watching Moses turn his rod into a serpent.

Why not believe Satan also made changes to this quote?

Simple - Brigham Young taught this teaching dozens of times and it was part of the temple endowment.
This is not an issue of misquoting.

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26 minutes ago, CV75 said:

In a way, everything you just cited from Brigham Young is consistent with current LDS teachings.

That's a bit of a stretch.  And even if true, I think you know full well that what Brigham meant was NOT consistent with current LDS teachings.  We have multiple quotes on the same subject that make that clear.

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2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

"I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me—namely that Adam is our Father and God—I do not know, I do not inquire, I care nothing about it. Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him, and after it was made he and his companions came here"  I found it in the FAIR website https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Repudiated_concepts/Adam-God_theory#cite_ref-3

Doctrine and Covenants 27:11

11 And also with Michael, or aAdam, the father of all, the prince of all, the bancient of days;

Doctrine and Covenants 78:16

16 Who hath appointed aMichael your prince, and established his feet, and set him upon high, and given unto him the keys of salvation under the counsel and direction of the bHoly One, who is without beginning of days or end of life.

So Michael is our father and does hold a key of salvation under the direction of Yeshua. Seems consistent that he is our elohim along with Yeshua (Gen 3:22; Heb 1:8 & Proverbs), and Heavenly Father. He ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and suffered spiritual death for Eve's sake - our sakes.

As for your theory about Satan changing manuscripts and stuff - naw. Only through men. Men change the words of God. 

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39 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Doctrine and Covenants 27:11

11 And also with Michael, or aAdam, the father of all, the prince of all, the bancient of days;

Doctrine and Covenants 78:16

16 Who hath appointed aMichael your prince, and established his feet, and set him upon high, and given unto him the keys of salvation under the counsel and direction of the bHoly One, who is without beginning of days or end of life.

So Michael is our father and does hold a key of salvation under the direction of Yeshua. Seems consistent that he is our elohim along with Yeshua (Gen 3:22; Heb 1:8 & Proverbs), and Heavenly Father. He ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and suffered spiritual death for Eve's sake - our sakes.

As for your theory about Satan changing manuscripts and stuff - naw. Only through men. Men change the words of God. 

But do you believe that Adam is the father of Jesus Christ as BY taught?

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1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

That's a bit of a stretch.  And even if true, I think you know full well that what Brigham meant was NOT consistent with current LDS teachings.  We have multiple quotes on the same subject that make that clear.

I don't think this thread is about what Brigham Young meant. Going by the OP, at issue is whether the devil made changes to his documents to result in false doctrine. The lines @SamuelTheLamanite provided do not accomplish that as they are not inconsistent with current teachings.

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Just now, CV75 said:

I don't think this thread is about what Brigham Young meant. Going by the OP, at issue is whether the devil made changes to his documents to result in false doctrine. The lines @SamuelTheLamanite provided do not accomplish that as they are not inconsistent with current teachings.

Interesting approach to STL's explanation.
Saying that even though Brigham actually did mean to teach something contradicting Church beliefs that because it can be taken not to contradict Church beliefs that the devil had no hand it in.  :D

Love it!

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1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Interesting approach to STL's explanation.
Saying that even though Brigham actually did mean to teach something contradicting Church beliefs that because it can be taken not to contradict Church beliefs that the devil had no hand it in.  :D

Love it!

:) ...I'm sure Brigham Young never meant to contradict Church beliefs. And I'm just as sure the devil didn't have a hand in what he or his successors meant or taught. I think that those aspects that have been culled from his teachings, and which have been denounced, are simply a function of not being able to obtain a witness about them, whatever the human obstacle may be.

In a way, by virtue of my agency and will, I am my Father and my God, and the only God with whom I have to do. In other words, I am the father of my next estate, and inasmuch as my expectation is met I am the god of / in my next estate, being the only one who can make those choices. Punctuation aside!

Edited by CV75
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3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Samuel may be going to experience some cog dis if he can't blame it on Satan. Been there, done that.

Me too!  I don't envy anyone going through this kind of thinking...but blaming Satan made me hate..and didn't want that at all!

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14 minutes ago, CV75 said:

:) ...I'm sure Brigham Young never meant to contradict Church beliefs. And I'm just as sure the devil didn't have a hand in what he or his successors meant or taught. I think that those aspects that have been culled from his teachings, and which have been denounced, are simply a function of not being able to obtain a witness about them, whatever the human obstacle may be.

In a way, by virtue of my agency and will, I am my Father and my God, and the only God with whom I have to do. In other words, I am the father of my next estate, and inasmuch as my expectation is met I am the god of / in my next estate, being the only one who can make those choices. Punctuation aside!

For me, BY was a highly intelligent man in the way of industry and the building of cities and states.  In church doctrine..I would like to think that he just think that he danced to the beat of a different drummer.

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30 minutes ago, JulieM said:

But do you believe that Adam is the father of Jesus Christ as BY taught?

I don't know that he taught that, but if so, no. Unfortunately, we can't be sure I don't think because the JoD is not a verbatim record.  Does it come from someplace else? I believe as Michael he holds a key of the Father of all. It's a Torah key of priesthood revealing the things of the Father.

D&C make it clear that Michael holds the keys of salvation under the direction of the Holy One. The Holy One is Yeshua our Savior, so no, Michael is not Yeshua's Father in any direct sense.

I see a lot of people attributing the statement to BY that Michael was Yeshua's father, but I see BY himself saying that Michael is our Father, and also saying our Father begat Yeshua. Therefore they may be attributing that to hearing that Michael begat Yeshua, which I don't recall seeing in the JoD. If he said that, then no, I disagree. 

There are aspects of BY's teaching which I agree with, but I don't believe our Adam was created on another planet and came here as Eve's husband in a direct sense. Everyone who has lived on this world was created on it, and I believe our Adam was created on this world and opened the first seal under the direction of Yeshua. However, an Adam was/is Yeshua's Father. An Adam that existed on another planet at one time and became the Father. I believe that Yeshua too was once an Adam, but through how many regenerations I cannot say. On His prior world Yeshua was basically as you and I, and followed His Savior as His Father - not as a Michael of that world. This is hard to explain, but I believe the priesthood key of Michael is being confused with an individual. Many individuals have held that key over the regenerations. Sorry I can't explain it better. I believe it is in the economy of God, and is not meant to be really understood yet. It probably won't be fully understood till Michael stands up again. So I don't want to bad-mouth BY for seeing a part of the picture and getting misquoted.

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2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Doctrine and Covenants 27:11

11 And also with Michael, or aAdam, the father of all, the prince of all, the bancient of days;

Doctrine and Covenants 78:16

16 Who hath appointed aMichael your prince, and established his feet, and set him upon high, and given unto him the keys of salvation under the counsel and direction of the bHoly One, who is without beginning of days or end of life.

So Michael is our father and does hold a key of salvation under the direction of Yeshua. Seems consistent that he is our elohim along with Yeshua (Gen 3:22; Heb 1:8 & Proverbs), and Heavenly Father. He ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and suffered spiritual death for Eve's sake - our sakes.

As for your theory about Satan changing manuscripts and stuff - naw. Only through men. Men change the words of God. 

In the original 21january 1836  revelation Adam and Michael were two different and distinct beings.

See the JSP entry:

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/visions-21-january-1836-dc-137/1

"I saw father Adam, and Abraham and Michael and my father and mother, my brother Alvin that has long since slept, and marvled how it was that he had obtained this an inheritance <in> this <that> kingdom, "

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23 minutes ago, blueglass said:

In the original 21january 1836  revelation Adam and Michael were two different and distinct beings.

See the JSP entry:

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/visions-21-january-1836-dc-137/1

"I saw father Adam, and Abraham and Michael and my father and mother, my brother Alvin that has long since slept, and marvled how it was that he had obtained this an inheritance <in> this <that> kingdom, "

Joseph Smith usually worked through scribes. If this was originally recorded through a scribe, I would attribute it to scribal error later caught by JS and corrected. Further, it was usually dictated without punctuation which was later added by a scribe, but may not always be the best representation of what was meant.

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3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

That's a bit of a stretch.  And even if true, I think you know full well that what Brigham meant was NOT consistent with current LDS teachings.  We have multiple quotes on the same subject that make that clear.

The only way to make it consistent is to make God a previous Adam from an ancient epoch which has passed on and not the Adam of this Earth.  There are armenian texts which support this:

 (See The Armenian Apocryphal Adam Literature translated by Michael stone and compiled by W. Lowndes Lipscomb)

Where it adds more about the conversation between Lucifer and Eve.  "3 And the woman said God commanded us not to eat of that.  He said when you eat of that you shall surely die.

4 but the serpent said, ' that is not so! Because God himself was a man like you when he ate of it, and he became God of all.  Because of that he said not to eat of that, because you knew that when you eat of it you will become a god, his equal. because of that he said for you not to eat"

Screenshot_20170905-170848.jpg

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27 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

In a way Adam is the father of all us mortals. 

Yes, but not in the manner that BY taught:

Quote

 

Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven.

 - Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, p. 51

 

Quote

 

"President Young followed & made many good remarks . . . He said that our God was Father Adam. He was the Father of the Savior Jesus Christ--Our God was no more or less than Adam . . . Michael the Archangel."

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Wilford Woodruff, February 19, 1854

 

Quote

 

"At meeting of school of the prophets, President Young said Adam was Michael the Archangel and he was the father of Jesus Christ and was our God, and Joseph taught this principle."

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Wilford Woodruff, December 16, 1867

 

Quote

 

"He [Brigham Young] said that our God was Father Adam. He was the Father of the Savior Jesus Christ – Our God was no more or less than ADAM, Michael the Archangel."

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Wilford Woodruff, Feb. 19, 1854

 

Quote

 

"Another meeting this evening. President B. Young taught that Adam was the father of Jesus and the only God to us. That he came to this world in a resurrected body, etc. More hereafter."

- Elder Hosea Stout, Hosea Stout Journal, v. 2, p. 435,

 

 

Edited by ALarson
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5 hours ago, ALarson said:

Samuel, Prophets are not infallible and make mistakes.  The position of the church is that Brigham Young was mistaken about his teachings regarding the Adam/God Doctrine.  

I understand. When did the church say Brigham Young taught Adam/God? So Brigham Young couldn't tell the difference between the spirit and his own thoughts? 

5 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I think most realize that speeches in history are captured by someone.  SOmetimes as that happened different parts or phrases were mistaken.  I don't know that it's easy to dismiss such an instance on this though.  it is recorded that Brigham taught such a concept many times.  When trying to evaluate whether statements were mistaken, it's best to see if it fits with what else we might know or what else we might find.  In this case, the teaching is largely attributed to Brigham after such evaluations. 

Please clarify. Do you believe the prophet Brigham Young was capable of telling the difference between the spirit and his own thoughts? 

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Its sad to me that you're looking for supernatural explanations to try and resolve historical evidence.  You should just stop this kind of non sense because it is dangerous to your health and there are no reasonable and rational arguments that you'll consider valid once you start down this road.  This is how conspiracy theorists think.  I encourage you not to get caught up in this kind of thinking.  

Do you believe Satan inspired men to do changes to the 116 pages? Why couldn't Satan do the same thing with many people?  Do you believe Satan has power? 

Edited by SamuelTheLamanite
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46 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Please clarify. Do you believe the prophet Brigham Young was capable of telling the difference between the spirit and his own thoughts?

Now you are moving the goalposts.

First Brigham's teachings were altered in the quotations by the devil.
Now when that is shown to be wrong you are questioning whether the teachings came from the spirit or Brigham himself.

Which puts us back into buffet territory.  Brigham received revelation.  One of them is recorded in the D&C.  He saw the Salt Lake Temple in vision.  He had many revelations, far more than made it into the D&C but they are still on record.  You want to pick and choose which ones you will accept.

And he also claimed revelation on Adam-God AFTER that D&C revelation was received.
Did Brigham forget what real revelation felt like in the in-between time and mistake his own thoughts for revelation? 

 

Edited by JLHPROF
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